Change in willingness to bear arms ...

[Operator 1,927]

Hi All,

Finally I have the date of my oath ceremony (YEESS and I can even make it)!

I am just wondering if anyone here answered yes to this question: "Has there been any change in your willingness to bear arms on behalf of the

United States;"

As far as I understand it is not a big issue but I would like to hear from anyone who has any experience with this.

Thanks a lot!

Hi Szilvia74,

I know you originally stated that you were looking for people with experience answering this question which I don’t have because I am a USC (and former Marine) so I hope you don’t mind that I post my opinion; maybe it will help you in your process.

I haven’t ever thought of becoming a citizen of another country, what a huge decision it must be. I’m sure you put a lot of thought in to your decision. It’s is a long and difficult process that the US puts people through and certainly not a perfect process. At the end, when you become a citizen you are granted all the rights, freedoms and privileges that go along with being a US citizen for the most part I guess you can never be President (and before I get steam rolled here I know that sounds a lot better than it actually is). One of those rights is the protection provided by the US military against “all enemies foreign and domestic” (again before I get steam rolled I’m not giving wholesale support of US policy).

I think the intent of the question is more that your new country wants to know that you will defend her as she will defend you and not necessarily that you will become a combatant in any conflict that comes along. At present we have an all-volunteer military but it’s true that can change. I don’t think taking this oath in the affirmative suggest that you are willing to pick up a rifle and set off to some distant land to take a life. I think it’s an affirmation that you are willing to defend those who are willing to defend you.

Hope this helps your thought process. Best of luck to you!

[CBP-SRT 9]

Completely off topic, but in the almost 70 years since WW2, we have been in 5 wars. In the 90 or so years preceding WW2, we (the US) were in 4 wars. Neither count includes all the small actions where we sent troops but no war was declared. Hasn't changed a whole lot.

Back on topic now. As for the willingness to bare arms question, I think you would have to have a good explanation as to why it has changed also. Otherwise the impression will be that the beneficiary just gave the answer that the IO wanted to hear previously so to speak. If the willingness has in fact changed, then best to answer honestly and be prepared to explain why.

If the US give anyone a chance to come here, and you think twice before saying yes to defending it; you shouldn't be here or allow to.

[Maleman 5]

Super Star Member and Diamond Member, I agree with many of your thoughts. I am a USC, and very proud to have had the opportunity to serve in the US military. While we as USC’s do not take an oath at birth, we learned the call of duty from our parents, and have appreciated those that have served before us and currently serving, and most importantly, give a debt of gratitude to those Americans that have given the ultimate sacrifice for our country. Before you enter into the US military you take an oath, and then you are under an entirely different set of laws called the “uniformed code of military justice.” I grew up in a very underprivileged environment as a young child in this country. However, the military was my fork in the road. Eventually, it gave me the experience, confidence, and technical training to step out of the poverty arena. The US is not a perfect country, but it has its share of medals of Honor protecting our citizens and others around the world. And, this should be a testimony for anyone to be proud to live in this country. At present, many Americans are confused regarding their patriotism. I for one am not bewildered as whether or not I would serve my country. Yes, at times, there does not seem to be the same circumstance or clarity as to the problems that caused WWII or the reasons to fight for the cause at hand. We must remember that are a lot of bad people in this world that wish to kill us for reasons that do not justify the means. Nonetheless, and I agree with both of you, we will know the right time to support our families and country if ever needed. The question concerning this post is asking you if you will support America if ever called upon. It is a decision that each of you will have to make, once you have decided to pursue citizenship. Having been affiliated with this JV site for some time now, I’m so very proud to have what I deem is a majority of wonderful people immigrating to the US. I am of the belief, and have faith, that Americas’ melting pot just gets better and better. Not only am I proud of my country, but I have the greatest affection and respect for my wife’s country. One day I know my wife will become a great American, because she is already an immense patriot of life! (Smile)

Edited May 5, 2011 by Maleman

[sciencenerd 56]

I think many people take the oath who would have absolutely no intention of ever serving in any military anywhere, regardless of circumstances. People can talk about it being untruthful, but the fact of the matter is you make complex choices in a complex world and none of those choices are perfect. If you are willing to take the oath with the recognition that the likelihood of that part of it ever being an issue are slim to none - we have an all-voluntary military and, if that ever changes, you will likely be too old to be affected by it (I don't see this happening again ever, much less in the next 20 years). I know many people who take that part of the oath to mean that if the US were at war with their home country, they would be on the side of the US and not fight against it. Since many people who would be unwilling to serve in the US military are also unwilling to serve in their home country's military (assuming they are also all-voluntary), they feel comfortable agreeing that their allegiance is to the US since it will be. For them, allegiance to the US during war doesn't take the form of serving in the military. It's a little mental gymnastics, but the bottom line is that if you don't take the full oath, you don't become a citizen. If you can find a way to feel at peace taking an oath that you don't 100% agree with in order to have the benefits and responsibilities of citizenship, it's worth it to me. I'm a citizen from birth, so I never had to take the oath, but I can tell you that absolutely no situation would ever get me to agree to serving in the military. I would struggle with this, and my wife does as well, but she is willing to take an oath to something she feels very confident would never come to fruition (she wouldn't be eligible to serve even if they did institute a draft). It's the principle of the thing that bothers her - but a principle isn't worth not attaining citizenship (for her). Good luck.

[extremerecluse 32]

Hi All,

Finally I have the date of my oath ceremony (YEESS and I can even make it)!

I am just wondering if anyone here answered yes to this question: "Has there been any change in your willingness to bear arms on behalf of the

United States;"

As far as I understand it is not a big issue but I would like to hear from anyone who has any experience with this.

Thanks a lot!

You swear to show true faith and allegiance to your country and that means your willingness to die for that cause.

[NickD 202]

The right to bear arms is from our countries foundation to separate us from police states and is in the 2nd amendment of our constitution. Guys like Hitler and more recently, Chavez from Venezuela are two notorious people to take away that right that also takes away the right to free speech. Such as Chavez to eliminate any demonstrations from college students to help him win their last election.

Now we are talking about the willingness to bear arms to defend this country, so are you willing to do this. This country has not become like being conscripted for military duty like under Stalin or Hitler, where they would give you a weapon, and if you refused to use it, would be shot on the spot. First you have to qualify to show proper use of that weapon, and if you cannot qualify in proper use of that weapon, they won't let you have one.

But the USCIS doesn't tell you that, just asks you if you are willing, so are you willing?

[Udella&Wiz 325]

Eloquently put - I would certainly help where I could - I would be menace to myself if they put a gun in my hands lol!

To those who say ' if you don't like it get out' or 'you're lucky that the US has allowed you in...' I'm from Canada - I could go home in second (and may someday). I came for my husband...not because I've been dying to be a US citizen all my life - for me.. citizenship is a practical, money based decision. Seems cold - but not everyone is here because they're from a war torn country.

Darnit - I said I wouldn' get into these arguments didn'ti

I think many people take the oath who would have absolutely no intention of ever serving in any military anywhere, regardless of circumstances. People can talk about it being untruthful, but the fact of the matter is you make complex choices in a complex world and none of those choices are perfect. If you are willing to take the oath with the recognition that the likelihood of that part of it ever being an issue are slim to none - we have an all-voluntary military and, if that ever changes, you will likely be too old to be affected by it (I don't see this happening again ever, much less in the next 20 years). I know many people who take that part of the oath to mean that if the US were at war with their home country, they would be on the side of the US and not fight against it. Since many people who would be unwilling to serve in the US military are also unwilling to serve in their home country's military (assuming they are also all-voluntary), they feel comfortable agreeing that their allegiance is to the US since it will be. For them, allegiance to the US during war doesn't take the form of serving in the military. It's a little mental gymnastics, but the bottom line is that if you don't take the full oath, you don't become a citizen. If you can find a way to feel at peace taking an oath that you don't 100% agree with in order to have the benefits and responsibilities of citizenship, it's worth it to me. I'm a citizen from birth, so I never had to take the oath, but I can tell you that absolutely no situation would ever get me to agree to serving in the military. I would struggle with this, and my wife does as well, but she is willing to take an oath to something she feels very confident would never come to fruition (she wouldn't be eligible to serve even if they did institute a draft). It's the principle of the thing that bothers her - but a principle isn't worth not attaining citizenship (for her). Good luck.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Udella&Wiz

[Szilvia74 3]

Thank you for your thoughtful replies!

For some of you I just like to say that believe it or not answering that you are unwilling to bear arms on the behalf of the US does not mean that you cannot be a citizen. No is an accepted reply. And I think this is right. I actually have a (male) friend why answered no on the application forms and he had no problem becoming a citizen. We are in a free country, aren't we?

As for me I am not sure how I am going to answer (I still have 3 weeks to decide). Yes I could just say yes I would bear arms like I am sure some people do without thinking but then I also have to be ok with not being truthful.

I'd like to change what I said before. When I re-read my own words I was a little surprised (LOL). I think I said something like I would have no problem using a weapon. Well, I wouldn't say that is true. I mean, yeah I would shoot a dummy object but it would be very hard to convince me to shoot anything living. Taking a life is just something that is not in me. Even more than that I just don't agree with wars, period. I think patriotism is not about the willingness of physically defending your country, I even dare to say that at times it can be argued to be the opposite. I hope I didn't hurt anyone's feelings, this is just my opinion at this time.

[NickD 202]

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the armed forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.""

"God" had been a problem for some, ha, the USCIS is "God", that has complete control of the destiny of your life. But in legal terms, you are simply stating that you are telling the truth.

"heretofore been a subject or citizen" is a current problem for us, in one sense we are dealing with the USCIS that is an entirely a different agency than the Department of State. If you get involved with many different agencies like I do, as each are making their own laws that congress doesn't even know about, run into constant conflicts between these agencies. But yet they all claim congress is making these laws! Wife is forced by our DOS to renew her citizenship with the country she was born in. Believe me, I fought this as best as I can, those hypocrites call it dual naturalization, thats a lie, its dual citizenship, and goes directly against the oath she took with the USCIS, I told them that! But if she wants to visit her mom, she needs that passport and in turn had to renew her citizenship, but at the same time, was told by her home country, when she took that oath with the USA, her citizenship was automatically renounced with her home country.

But anyway, they restored her home country citizenship the only way she could get a passport. I have been with her every step of the way, and she never had to take an oath to that country, nor deny her citizenship to the USA. But we are dealing with idiots running our country, and have no choice in this matter. Keeping a folder on this subject. Your congressman nor senator is no help on this subject.

Young men between the ages of 18 and 26 have to register with selective service, even as lawful permanent residents. While in its 30 year history, has never been used, can be, and drafted into service into this country. But never have known in my experience where any LPR that comes here, has to take an oath to that effect. You can live here the rest of your life as a LPR and never have to take an oath, but still be called into military service if there is a need for that. But have to take that oath to become a US citizenship. Kind of dumb, isn't it?

Guess I could call my darling wife a hypocrite, was vehemently against taking that oath as she hates guns and killing people, but already heard her make the comment many times that she wishes someone should shoot Hugo. He stole money from her that she worked hard for by taking over banks she had a savings account in. All of her hard working friends lost their good jobs when he prevented imports from her company and are now living in a state of poverty. Plus she owns property in Venezuela that Hugo is stealing from the rightful owners. And she has family there we are desperately trying to get out. Seems like Obama is far more interested in the middle east and Africa than relatives of US citizens, we were pushed back years on this issue.

Her major interest in becoming a US citizen, was being treated like an outsider at her present job, plus cutting our ties with the USCIS, has a home here, and is well established. Just promised her, if we are called to duty, will be right along side of her, shooting those bad guys.

Just saying while you may have negative views on these two sections of the oath, those views will be entirely changed if you see your husband blown apart before your eyes.

Another part of our military that isn't well advertised, is helping people in particular during natural disasters, its just not killing. Sure if you were stranded in an ocean, you will be very happy to see the US Coast Guard come around to save your life. Wouldn't you like to partake in savings someone's life? It was depends on your perspective on this subject.

[Szilvia74 3]

I would have no problem helping out in natural disasters or any other non-combat situations. I understand that military does this too but other non-military organizations as well.

I would think the oath alliance is towards the United States as a country not towards particular individuals (family, friends, neighbor etc).

I have no bad feelings towards those people who say yes they would bear arms but when the time came have no intention to do so. I am getting my citizenship mainly for practical reasons too. And the whole process was not cheap either!

[daisy16 0]

To the OP, I have thought a great deal about the original and the oath question. I don't see how my feelings and beliefs will change.

Regardless of my thoughts on guns, my answer will always be the same:

If I was required by law to bear arms, I would, but I would be scared to death and therefore be of no use to anyone.

[NickD 202]

The wars we had are positively insane, mass destruction, ruined lives, and the best of our young men and now women are being killed. I was forced to fight against communism, that was a pile of BS, was no communism in those countries, was just insane dictators, their people suffered just as much as we did, while the leaders were drinking tea in comfortable surroundings.

Talk to any honest vet on this subject, not fighting for the flag of this country, but fighting for your own survival. The really great nuts were German soldiers that all claimed to be fighting for revenge because we killed their families. Didn't it even occur to them that their insane leader started all this?

I vehemently objected to us invading Iraq, just because a handful of terrorist that were here legally did a lot of damage, but apparently was only one insignificant voice. Most of the nation was against the war in Viet Nam, mainly because of the draft. Since that is no longer here, Americans don't give a damn anymore. Finding terrorists is suppose to be a CIA operation, not a military one, over 3/4 a million deaths were caused by that invasion and a lot of hatred was generated. Still insist someone here pissed off those terrorists and it sure in the hell wasn't the vast majority of this country, but yet the country stays quiet on issues like this. So much for democracy, only works if the people speak up.

This bit about us getting involved with other country problems, again dealing with dictators is crazy, we have dictators here! Latest line is fighting for democracy for countries that don't even want it. If they did, they would fight for it, and many experts have stated, after we leave, it will go back to exactly where it was.

This country was involved with over 125 wars instituted by the commander in chief when congress is suppose to declare these wars, but that was only done three times, this is criminal. And it basically ends up with an 18 year killing another 18 year old. My only choice was to run to Canada, get married in high school and have a bunch of kids, have a rich dad to sent me to Harvard, go to jail, or to serve. I elected to do the later, actually had very little choice. And wonder today how legal was my oath back then, if I didn't say it, would have gone to jail. And what did that accomplish, can't tell you how upset I was when I found clothes in our stores made in Viet Nam. And equally upset when I see Toyota, Honda, and Sony all over the place, lost two uncles in WW II and for what? The nuts in Germany and Japan by following their insane leaders led to their own destruction. Do we have the same kind of nuts living here?

And how did this country suffering from a major depression suddenly come up with trillions of dollars to build the most powerful military in the world, when it couldn't even feed its own people. War is totally unproductive, always has been. But at least, back then everything was made here where the IRS can tax it and get all that money back, was no major debts after Viet Nam nor even WW II. Now that our government exported all of our jobs, permitted foreign corporations to run our country, all that money is untaxable and leaving here so we are going into a huge debt.

Was a lot easier serving my country, then having my two younger brothers drafted for Viet Nam, was a life of hell expecting that telegram any day of their debts, and totally helpless to do anything about it.

Yes, say you will bear arms, become a US citizen and be a voice against these useless wars that history has proven over and over again, nothing was really accomplished by them, except the deaths of our most valuable assets, our young. Don't depend on your fellow Americans to do this, too busy watching football games.

And we didn't have a single competent commander in chief after George Washington, practically all the recent ones are draft dodgers, that is because they had rich old men that could afford to sent them to Harvard. They have no idea how miserable war can be on our young.