strange situation...

[Justine+David 218]

well, we don't know if he did the give the marriage a chance or not. There's no timeline attached to what he's saying, only that they got married and he went overseas for a year. There could have been 6 months in between marrying and going away...it's possible that they've delayed applying for the AOS process as many couples report doing on VJ. It's possible that he did give it a chance.

And honestly, after all that has happened, I think they would have a difficult time convincing the immigration officer during the interview that their marriage is currently real. As far as--it's not likely that they communicate on a regular basis while he was away overseas and they took so long to AOS and from a high-fraud country. How likely is it that they have shared bank accounts/insurance cards/etc etc?

Additionally, my guess is that the OP is afraid that even if she gets a green card, she will still be ostracized by her own family by being a divorcee and the OP will be ostracized for divorcing. It's a lose-lose situation no matter which way the OP goes.

[Justine+David 218]

well, we don't know if he did the give the marriage a chance or not. There's no timeline attached to what he's saying, only that they got married and he went overseas for a year. There could have been 6 months in between marrying and going away...it's possible that they've delayed applying for the AOS process as many couples report doing on VJ. It's possible that he did give it a chance.

And honestly, after all that has happened, I think they would have a difficult time convincing the immigration officer during the interview that their marriage is currently real. As far as--it's not likely that they communicate on a regular basis while he was away overseas and they took so long to AOS and from a high-fraud country. How likely is it that they have shared bank accounts/insurance cards/etc etc?

Additionally, my guess is that the OP is afraid that even if she gets a green card, she will still be ostracized by her own family by being a divorcee and the OP will be ostracized for divorcing. He will be hurt no matter what he does--live in a marriage that he feels stuck in (btw, is that any way to live with a spouse? for either party to live in a marriage in which one does not want to be in) or divorcing her with a green card and being on the hook financially plus being ostracized or divorcing her without a green card and being ostracized and she is humiliated. It's a lose-lose-lose situation no matter which way the OP goes.

Again--I feel very blessed with my life that I was not put towards these decisions. I cannot imagine what it's like to have one foot in traditional Vietnamese family and the other in a westernized married-for-love philosophy.

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

Jim, While I have the uptmost respect for your thoughts, I am not arguing Vietnamese Culture.. I don't beleive the US is very diferent in the part where we expect grown-ups to be resposnsible for their actions.. See below in the OP's initial Post..

Instead of dealing with the matter, he's hoping the Immigation System will deal with it for him.. While Vietnamese traditions are in play here, I still believe in the values system which is not to diferent (in my experiences) from many other country.. Making adults accountable to local Laws (US) and Customs regardless of how they make thier descissions or the influences affecting those descission. Ultimately, we need to be responsible for our actions.. If an arranged Marriage in Vietnam is commonplace, then I beleive those marraiges are as genuine as any other marriage. In the Spouses mind, she must have felt thet she was entering into a legitimate relationship.. We dont know since the wife hasn't put her side into this discussion, so, it seems wrong to conclude this was a sham... Either way, I am not here to give relationship advise in this matter, but Using the Immigration system to escape responsibilities regardless of ones actions or bad descissions just simply seems wrong...

Responsible for their actions? Sure, of course. But in this case, I have a strong suspicion he had very little to say about what he got involved in.

Arranged marriage is not nearly as common in Vietnam as it used to be, especially in the bigger cities, but it's still very common in the smaller villages and rural areas. People in those circumstances don't get married because they love each other. They get married because the parents can't support their kids for the rest of their lives, and they need a large extended family in order to support the elderly family members when they can no longer work. The family is like a living organism. If some parts die off and aren't replaced then the other parts wither and die, as well. Each new generation is needed to help the generations that preceded them to survive.

This goes way beyond practical. It's also strongly spiritual. They believe the spirits of deceased relatives remain on the earthly plain for two generations, and the living relatives have a responsibility to continue to take care of them until they move on. When they have an important family gathering, they prepare a lot of food. Before eating the food, they place it on a table outside the front door of the home, along with tea, beer, whatever. The spirits of their relatives, as well as any "homeless" spirits who don't have relatives to care for them, are invited to 'dine' on the food before the family sits down to eat. They honor the birthdays of the deceased with this sort of feast. There is nothing worse than passing away in Vietnam and not having any family to honor you, to feast on your birthday, and to place your picture behind the family altar.

Vietnamese continue these traditions when you go abroad. I've been to many of these family gatherings, and I've gotten a pretty good sense for how important family is to them, and especially the important of the family pecking order. There are certain elders in the extended family who are so important that their word is practically law. By a weird quirk of fate, I now have an "uncle" who is younger than me by eight years, but he's far above me in the family hierarchy. He's even above my wife, who is the same age as him. I married into this hierarchy, so I have to accept it. I'm given a lot of leeway because I'm not Vietnamese, but if Uncle Van asks me for a favor then I better have a damn good reason for saying no.

Anyway, back to the OP's problem... I suspect he comes from a very strictly traditional family. His parents told him to get married, and he did what he was told, in spite of any misgivings he might have had.

People have said that he should "man up" and take responsibility for his actions. I believe that's what he's trying to do. He believes he made a big mistake, and he wants to fix it even if it means going against his parents wishes. People say that in western culture you wouldn't marry a foreign bride and then drop her like a hot potato because you didn't really love her. Well, in western culture you wouldn't marry someone because your parents told you to. I think he's caught between western culture, which is telling him to follow his heart and look for happiness, and Vietnamese culture, which is telling him to obey his parents.

I don't envy the position he's in.

[daboyz 36]

Responsible for their actions? Sure, of course. But in this case, I have a strong suspicion he had very little to say about what he got involved in.

Arranged marriage is not nearly as common in Vietnam as it used to be, especially in the bigger cities, but it's still very common in the smaller villages and rural areas. People in those circumstances don't get married because they love each other. They get married because the parents can't support their kids for the rest of their lives, and they need a large extended family in order to support the elderly family members when they can no longer work. The family is like a living organism. If some parts die off and aren't replaced then the other parts wither and die, as well. Each new generation is needed to help the generations that preceded them to survive.

This goes way beyond practical. It's also strongly spiritual. They believe the spirits of deceased relatives remain on the earthly plain for two generations, and the living relatives have a responsibility to continue to take care of them until they move on. When they have an important family gathering, they prepare a lot of food. Before eating the food, they place it on a table outside the front door of the home, along with tea, beer, whatever. The spirits of their relatives, as well as any "homeless" spirits who don't have relatives to care for them, are invited to 'dine' on the food before the family sits down to eat. They honor the birthdays of the deceased with this sort of feast. There is nothing worse than passing away in Vietnam and not having any family to honor you, to feast on your birthday, and to place your picture behind the family altar.

Vietnamese continue these traditions when you go abroad. I've been to many of these family gatherings, and I've gotten a pretty good sense for how important family is to them, and especially the important of the family pecking order. There are certain elders in the extended family who are so important that their word is practically law. By a weird quirk of fate, I now have an "uncle" who is younger than me by eight years, but he's far above me in the family hierarchy. He's even above my wife, who is the same age as him. I married into this hierarchy, so I have to accept it. I'm given a lot of leeway because I'm not Vietnamese, but if Uncle Van asks me for a favor then I better have a damn good reason for saying no.

Anyway, back to the OP's problem... I suspect he comes from a very strictly traditional family. His parents told him to get married, and he did what he was told, in spite of any misgivings he might have had.

People have said that he should "man up" and take responsibility for his actions. I believe that's what he's trying to do. He believes he made a big mistake, and he wants to fix it even if it means going against his parents wishes. People say that in western culture you wouldn't marry a foreign bride and then drop her like a hot potato because you didn't really love her. Well, in western culture you wouldn't marry someone because your parents told you to. I think he's caught between western culture, which is telling him to follow his heart and look for happiness, and Vietnamese culture, which is telling him to obey his parents.

I don't envy the position he's in.

Good post. I think that clears it up. I think Thailand is very similar to this, but for some reason my wife's family isn't like this at all. I think they are the exception, not the rule.

[indian guy 13]

There are two prospective. One what is right or wrong and another What has to be done according to the law.

Of course many countries have same culture where children cannot disobay the parents, the reason he married. I don't think the same parents will back from their words and telling him to get divorce either? He bought here here, married and now when he get bored he is trying to send her back. Didn't that same culture teaches that the marriage is lofe long too? same perent teaches their children?

Its just like buy something from store and then when you don't like then just return or sell it on ebay.

Where is humanity?

Ofcourse he can divorce. withdraw I 864. she will decide if she can file WAVA or not. He has all the advantage because he has his whole family in United states but She left everybody back home. One thing for sure.. She may or may not get WAVA but she will be completely breakdown emotionally. May be people like him grow without heart too. who knows.

I know my answer is not unbaised but, I can't see any fault of her.

[ml82 1]

Responsible for their actions? Sure, of course. But in this case, I have a strong suspicion he had very little to say about what he got involved in.

Arranged marriage is not nearly as common in Vietnam as it used to be, especially in the bigger cities, but it's still very common in the smaller villages and rural areas. People in those circumstances don't get married because they love each other. They get married because the parents can't support their kids for the rest of their lives, and they need a large extended family in order to support the elderly family members when they can no longer work. The family is like a living organism. If some parts die off and aren't replaced then the other parts wither and die, as well. Each new generation is needed to help the generations that preceded them to survive.

This goes way beyond practical. It's also strongly spiritual. They believe the spirits of deceased relatives remain on the earthly plain for two generations, and the living relatives have a responsibility to continue to take care of them until they move on. When they have an important family gathering, they prepare a lot of food. Before eating the food, they place it on a table outside the front door of the home, along with tea, beer, whatever. The spirits of their relatives, as well as any "homeless" spirits who don't have relatives to care for them, are invited to 'dine' on the food before the family sits down to eat. They honor the birthdays of the deceased with this sort of feast. There is nothing worse than passing away in Vietnam and not having any family to honor you, to feast on your birthday, and to place your picture behind the family altar.

Vietnamese continue these traditions when you go abroad. I've been to many of these family gatherings, and I've gotten a pretty good sense for how important family is to them, and especially the important of the family pecking order. There are certain elders in the extended family who are so important that their word is practically law. By a weird quirk of fate, I now have an "uncle" who is younger than me by eight years, but he's far above me in the family hierarchy. He's even above my wife, who is the same age as him. I married into this hierarchy, so I have to accept it. I'm given a lot of leeway because I'm not Vietnamese, but if Uncle Van asks me for a favor then I better have a damn good reason for saying no.

Anyway, back to the OP's problem... I suspect he comes from a very strictly traditional family. His parents told him to get married, and he did what he was told, in spite of any misgivings he might have had.

People have said that he should "man up" and take responsibility for his actions. I believe that's what he's trying to do. He believes he made a big mistake, and he wants to fix it even if it means going against his parents wishes. People say that in western culture you wouldn't marry a foreign bride and then drop her like a hot potato because you didn't really love her. Well, in western culture you wouldn't marry someone because your parents told you to. I think he's caught between western culture, which is telling him to follow his heart and look for happiness, and Vietnamese culture, which is telling him to obey his parents.

I don't envy the position he's in.

jim, thanks, everything you've said so far in this thread, you've nailed on the head. you've got a really good insight on viet culture, your wife must've taught you a lot. but in saying that, i'm not trying to make excuses for myself. i messed up, i made my mistakes. i thought i had a life of no regret, but i have to say, this is my one regret. i tried to talk to my parents about it last night, and she said i must get her the greencard because it would be a sin not to follow through with this. there's a large sense of guilt hanging over my head. anyway, thanks to all those who have responded- good or bad- i needed to hear those comments. this is hard for me and i know this isn't a walk in the park for her either. i feel like the ending to this situation is going to be brutal, like putting an injured animal out of its misery.

[pookaphilus 12]

If you really just sincerely 'changed your mind', I hope she can be successful with VAWA and an abandonment claim. That's really unkind to pluck her from her life, then leave her with no options.

:thumbs:

[Kathryn41 3,205]

Insensitive and inappropriate post along with 2 posts quoting same have been removed. Please refrain from making off topic type of comments in the Immigration forums - they are not acceptable here and are of no use to the OP.

Acceptable part of one of the removed comments returned to the thread here:

AmyKathleen2005:

OP, initially I thought you were cruel and insensitive, however, your last post has made you out to be mature and thoughtful. I wish you luck in your decision. And whatever you do remember it is your life, no one should be able to run it for you.

Edited December 17, 2010 by Kathryn41

[rlogan 2,036]

With all due respect to the varied opinions expressed in this thread, I don't think the OP deserves the bashing he's getting. In a traditional Vietnamese family, children do not say no to their parents, not even if the parent is 90 and the child is 70. They would incur the wrath of the entire extended family.

Thank you Jim

What we are dealing with here is the invincible urge to put others down as a way of making ourselves feel superior.

Internet discussion boards are chock full of this behavior because anonymity reduces the incentives to behave civilly. We say things we would not say in front of family, friends, work cohorts, etc. where costs can be imposed for being a judgemental jerk. But the internet also suffers from what is called self-selection bias: people that are ostracized socially for being jerks gravitate to the internet.

I have to keep telling myself to avoid doing this, but I'm not perfect and act like a judgemental jerk sometimes.

Anyone whose words can be spun into treating an immigrant spouse like a commoddity affords people the perfect opportunity to jump down his throat. There is almost no way to word this without someone choosing to interpret it that way. Once it gets started, a lynch mob can form because now the lynchers have mutual support.

The fact is he will commit immigration fraud by continuing on with a bogus marriage and applying for a green card simply because his parents and the PC Morality Cops at Visa Journey pressure him into it.

He is not obligated morally to commit crime so that other people can feel superior to him.

This girl is not going to be happy in a relationship where her husband does not love her. Look carefully at how on the one hand people pretend to be "defending" her, but on the other hand this universal rule regarding unrequited love is being ignored.

Sure, she'll love her green card. But we are not allowed to recommend immigration fraud to people on this forum. A green card is not a consolation prize everyone is entitled to on a fiance visa.

He must tell the interviewing officer the truth. If he lies, that is a crime.

Can you imagine how this would go, telling the truth? "Oh, no I don't love her. I stayed with her because other people insisted I was morally obligated to..."

Let's be careful here folks. Jim has this one nailed.

[amykathleen2005 441]

I don't think anyone was advocating being in a marriage just to get a green card. I think for myself at least I was suggesting that he not just dump her back in her home country with no concern for her after he was instrumental in bringing her to the US in the first place.

[Theunloved 0]

What is legal is not always moral, and I think it fits perfectly into your case ml82. Coming from a traditional Vietnamese family, I could understand the pressure, the expectation that parents could put into their kids, but hey, you've been living in the US for years, and judging from post, I could tell that you have at least gone to high school/college here, why didn't you stand up against your parents about the marriage ? Why do you now ? Is it because you are living far way from your parents ? or is it because you already have an interest in someone else ? Reading your post, and your questions, I just feel like you are a completely coward, irresponsible period. What you're doing rite now seems to me that you completely wanna get rid of her from your life, permanently, because a grown-up, responsible person wouldn't have done it. Now, let me ask you, if and I say "if" because I don't know how the process of K-1 would be, if ditching your wife would mean that you have come out to INS, admit that your marriage were fraud from the beginning and admit that you were lying when filling out the papers and know that it would have put you in jail, would you "still" have the thought of wanting to abandon your wife ? I doubt that because it seems to me that you do not only want to end your relationship with her but also do no drag yourself into any problems with the INS.

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

What is legal is not always moral, and I think it fits perfectly into your case ml82. Coming from a traditional Vietnamese family, I could understand the pressure, the expectation that parents could put into their kids, but hey, you've been living in the US for years, and judging from post, I could tell that you have at least gone to high school/college here, why didn't you stand up against your parents about the marriage ? Why do you now ? Is it because you are living far way from your parents ? or is it because you already have an interest in someone else ? Reading your post, and your questions, I just feel like you are a completely coward, irresponsible period. What you're doing rite now seems to me that you completely wanna get rid of her from your life, permanently, because a grown-up, responsible person wouldn't have done it. Now, let me ask you, if and I say "if" because I don't know how the process of K-1 would be, if ditching your wife would mean that you have come out to INS, admit that your marriage were fraud from the beginning and admit that you were lying when filling out the papers and know that it would have put you in jail, would you "still" have the thought of wanting to abandon your wife ? I doubt that because it seems to me that you do not only want to end your relationship with her but also do no drag yourself into any problems with the INS.

I'll repeat from my earlier post - US immigration law does not require that the petitioner and beneficiary are in love. The law, as well as USCIS and the US consulates abroad, recognize that arranged marriages are common in some cultures. The OP has not committed any fraud because he was involved in an arranged marriage UNLESS he participated with the primary INTENT of circumventing immigration law. In other words, if he married her primarily to help her get a green card, then yes - he's guilty of fraud. On the other hand, if he married her because his parents told him to, and he thought that's what an obedient Vietnamese son should do, then he's guilty of nothing more than being tormented by the conflicting requirements of two very different cultures.

I will agree with you on one point - it would have been far better if he had overcome his fear and confronted his parents when they told him to marry her. If he knew at the time that this was something he was strongly opposed to on a personal level, and thought that there was a good chance he could not live with this decision for the rest of his life, then he should have faced off with his parents. I don't fault him for wanting to undo his mistake now, but he's going to face a much bigger sh!tstorm with his parents then he would have faced if he'd dealt with this in the beginning, and refused to marry her.

That said, you can't change history. I'm not standing in his shoes, and I can't say whether me or any one of us would have had the intestinal fortitude to stand in front of his parents and say "no". I'm not ready to call anyone else a coward until I've faced the same demons and won.

[sachinky 464]

A marriage is considered to be fraud only if the couple (or one of them) got married solely for immigration benefits. Getting married for money or security, or even for traditional reasons such as family pressure (in some cases of arranged marriage) is still considered to be a 'bonafide' relationship according to the USCIS.

[Theunloved 0]

A marriage is considered to be fraud only if the couple (or one of them) got married solely for immigration benefits. Getting married for money or security, or even for traditional reasons such as family pressure (in some cases of arranged marriage) is still considered to be a 'bonafide' relationship according to the USCIS.

How many couples in would go to the interview and tell the IO that you marry your spouse just because of his money or you parents push you into this marriage and somehow the IO will approve your case ? I highly doubt that. and by the way, isn't sham marriage about money ? One goes for the green card and the other one should be happy with a full pocket of money.

[Theunloved 0]

I'll repeat from my earlier post - US immigration law does not require that the petitioner and beneficiary are in love. The law, as well as USCIS and the US consulates abroad, recognize that arranged marriages are common in some cultures. The OP has not committed any fraud because he was involved in an arranged marriage UNLESS he participated with the primary INTENT of circumventing immigration law. In other words, if he married her primarily to help her get a green card, then yes - he's guilty of fraud. On the other hand, if he married her because his parents told him to, and he thought that's what an obedient Vietnamese son should do, then he's guilty of nothing more than being tormented by the conflicting requirements of two very different cultures.

I will agree with you on one point - it would have been far better if he had overcome his fear and confronted his parents when they told him to marry her. If he knew at the time that this was something he was strongly opposed to on a personal level, and thought that there was a good chance he could not live with this decision for the rest of his life, then he should have faced off with his parents. I don't fault him for wanting to undo his mistake now, but he's going to face a much bigger sh!tstorm with his parents then he would have faced if he'd dealt with this in the beginning, and refused to marry her.

That said, you can't change history. I'm not standing in his shoes, and I can't say whether me or any one of us would have had the intestinal fortitude to stand in front of his parents and say "no". I'm not ready to call anyone else a coward until I've faced the same demons and won.

Jim, let me be clear with you and the others, am not trying to tell him to come around the immigration laws in order to get her a green card, NO, this is not my intent period. What am trying to say is the OP needs to take more responsible for his past actions, he can't just pluck his wife from her home country, where she was born and raised there, and then abandon her in a country that she never knows in her life but only sees it in TV. He's not obliged to stay in the marriage since he doesn't even have a feeling for her. He can divorce however he wants. But here is the important part that I think he needs to do it as grown up, he needs to personally take her back to Vietnam, explains the situation to her family and accepts the consequences from any actions or any damage that he has caused so far. I'm sorry if I maybe a little harsh but the way he talks, it seems like he just want to dust her off completely, and I strongly oppose it.