Has anyone ever thought about how selfish Christianity is?

[slim 1,514]

Isn't it interesting that you're supposed to turn other people on to your religion... yet you can't change your own?

[BishopM 114]

What makes someone a "Real Christian" is someone colored by the perspective of the person answering the question. There are Evangelicals that find Mormons to not not be "Real" Christians, but many of Mormons probably do have genuine faith in Christ. Members of the Westboro Baptist Church probably feel that they have a genuine faith in Christ, but many mainstream Christian denominations are pretty quick to distance themselves from that group.

This is a good perspective. I personally feel that it is best to believe in God (without religion) and then find the religion that brings you closest to God. If you can do that, and it might take take a lifetime to do that, you'll probably be happy. At least that is my case

Debating God from the point of religion often seems to me a futile effort because it attempts to define something 'intangible' (God) with something that is 'tangible'(religion). I'm always interested in talking to people about God (even those that don't believe) and then hearing their thoughts, why they chose a certain religion, etc...

Thats just my thoughts though...

Edited November 10, 2010 by BishopM

[daboyz 36]

I don't know. Generally speaking, people's religiosity is so integral to who they are, who knows what would happen if you took religion out of the equation entirely.

I think bad people would remain bad if you took religion away. I think religion is the only thing keeping some people good, so I wouldn't want to take it away from them. Therefore, I see the net effect of religion as a positive.

Yeah if the fear of going to hell stops someone from sticking a gun in my ribs and taking my wallet, it is probably a good thing.

[Danno 1,228]

What makes someone a "Real Christian" is someone colored by the perspective of the person answering the question. There are Evangelicals that find Mormons to not not be "Real" Christians, but many of Mormons probably do have genuine faith in Christ. Members of the Westboro Baptist Church probably feel that they have a genuine faith in Christ, but many mainstream Christian denominations are pretty quick to distance themselves from that group.

YOu make a valid point.

The only thing is in all your examples you find people who actually have a conviction in their faith... which to me was the dividing line in the context we were speaking about.

I don't believe hitler had any deep convictions about being any type of Christian at all.

I am not attempting to wading into the much more deep and complex question about "true expressions of Christianity".

[tiffmal 6]

You picked the wrong strawman, methinks. Orthodox Protestant Christianity is perhaps the only major religion on the planet that doesn't follow the "do good things -> get rewarded by <deity>" template.

Christianity's paradigm is that all of us are damaged and evil to one extent or another, completely and utterly undeserving of anything from God but eternal destruction. If that were the whole story it would be incredibly depressing. God has every moral right to hate everything we are and everything we stand for.

But the Gospel, the good news, is that God loves us. He loves us more than the most loyal human husband loves his wife. He loves us so much, despite our brokenness and our evil hurtful intents to each other, despite our open hatred of Him, that He agreed, as Jesus, to take the punishment and destruction we deserve, bear it for us, and let us live forever in a renewed and repaired universe.

God loves us, regardless of who we are, what we do, or even how hard we try. It's good news. Unbelievably good news for all of us.

If he loves us ALL so much then why do some people go to hell?

[Ban Hammer 12,837]

It's interesting that God has enough love for every single one of us yet he expects us to love him only.

god must be a cat!

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Yeah!!!!!!!!!

Actually, I never thought about it.

If he loves us ALL so much then why do some people go to hell?

Only bad people

Yeah if the fear of going to hell stops someone from sticking a gun in my ribs and taking my wallet, it is probably a good thing.

But just in case it doesn't, I have a gun of my own to shoot them in the eye.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

Christianity's paradigm is that all of us are damaged and evil to one extent or another, completely and utterly undeserving of anything from God but eternal destruction. If that were the whole story it would be incredibly depressing. God has every moral right to hate everything we are and everything we stand for.

God loves us, regardless of who we are, what we do, or even how hard we try. It's good news. Unbelievably good news for all of us.

Sorry my iPod touch couldn't get the full text of your post. But, and I say this with all due respect for your right to believe what you will...

God, the perfect Creator, has every reason to hate us? His wondrous creations, created in his likeness? Is God insane?

He murdered his only son out of his deep love for us? Guess that answers the question, yes God is insane!

[HeatDeath 430]

Sorry my iPod touch couldn't get the full text of your post. But, and I say this with all due respect for your right to believe what you will...

God, the perfect Creator, has every reason to hate us? His wondrous creations, created in his likeness? Is God insane?

He murdered his only son out of his deep love for us? Guess that answers the question, yes God is insane!

People are only "His wondrous creations" if you stopped reading the Bible after Chapter 1. Hint: there's a plot twist in chapter 3.

As a result of said plot twist, people are dark, twisted, broken shadows of what we were created to be. Even the best of us. So yes, God has every reason to hate what we've made of ourselves, to just want to wipe the slate clean, dispose of the messed up experiment and start fresh.

As to the second point, remember, Jesus and God are one. Jesus said so Himself. So it's more like suicide than murder.

An even better way to think about it is that you are standing in a courtroom having just been found guilty of innumerable crimes. It wasn't even a contest, the evidence was so clear. Your sentence was life in prison, or a ten million dollar fine. You, not having ten million dollars, were about to be lead away when someone you didn't even know announced to the judge that they love you enough that they've sold everything they own, and they're paying your fine. They hand the judge a cheque, and the judge says you're free to go. That person may be crazy, by any human rational standards. But how are you going to respond to their generosity?

That's what God/Jesus has done for us already. Maybe it does look insane. Maybe it even is insane, by any standards of human "reason". But there it stands. How will you respond to it?

Edited November 10, 2010 by HeatDeath

[one...two...tree 2,762]

If he loves us ALL so much then why do some people go to hell?

What is hell? Absence from God. God welcomes everyone with open arms - even the most wretched. It's up to each person to accept God's love or reject Him. No one is sent away by God. It is a choice and part of free will.

[HeatDeath 430]

I'm not entirely convinced people DO go to Hell. The bible speaks of "everlasting destruction", but not of everlasting torment for any except a few supernatural beings. People may just die and stay dead.

Which is right and proper. Eternal life is not inherent to humanity. We do not have "immortal souls." human immortality is only ever referred to in the Bible, when referred to at all, as a gift of God. We don't have it yet, and we aren't owed it.

It's a gift, and in some meaningful way, an inheritance. You don't get an inheritance based on what you do, you get it solely based on the whim of the testator. And the testator has to die for you to get that inheritance. That part happened, on the cross. You don't have to earn an inheritance. Once the testator dies, all you have to do is claim the inheritance. But to claim it, you must first believe that it exists. If I tell you Aunt Millie died and left you 10 million dollars, and you say "I don't believe that" and go on with your life, you aren't getting 10 million dollars, now are you?

Eternal life is a gift of God, our inheritance from Jesus Christ, who left it to us because He loved us. If you don't believe Jesus Christ left you that inheritance, then you won't claim it, then you won't have eternal life, then you will die and stay dead. It's really that simple.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I'm not entirely convinced people DO go to Hell. The bible speaks of "everlasting destruction", but not of everlasting torment for any except a few supernatural beings. People may just die and stay dead.

Which is right and proper. Eternal life is not inherent to humanity. We do not have "immortal souls." human immortality is only ever referred to in the Bible, when referred to at all, as a gift of God. We don't have it yet, and we aren't owed it.

It's a gift, and in some meaningful way, an inheritance. You don't get an inheritance based on what you do, you get it solely based on the whim of the testator. And the testator has to die for you to get that inheritance. That part happened, on the cross. You don't have to earn an inheritance. Once the testator dies, all you have to do is claim the inheritance. But to claim it, you must first believe that it exists. If I tell you Aunt Millie died and left you 10 million dollars, and you say "I don't believe that" and go on with your life, you aren't getting 10 million dollars, now are you?

Eternal life is a gift of God, our inheritance from Jesus Christ, who left it to us because He loved us. If you don't believe Jesus Christ left you that inheritance, then you won't claim it, then you won't have eternal life, then you will die and stay dead. It's really that simple.

What particular religion is that from?

[HeatDeath 430]

What particular religion is that from?

"Conditional Immortality", "Conditionalism", or "Annihilationism" is not currently a popular doctrine in any major Christian denomination, but seems to have been the default assumption in First Temple Judaism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_conditionalism

After the Babylonian Captivity, it seems to have been gradually supplanted by the Greek philosophical concept that humans have an immortal soul. Both doctrines were active within Second Temple Judaism at the time of Christ, and there appears to have been no real consensus as to which was true.

It crops up in the early Church Fathers, and again during the Reformation. It seems to have been repressed by the Roman Catholic Church, and the only reason it wasn't a major emphasis of the Reformation is that the Reformers had bigger doctrinal fish to fry, like grace vs. works.

The most comprehensive modern survery of ancient and Reformation literature on the subject is "The Fire That Consumes: The Biblical Case for Conditional Immortality" by Edward W. Fudge, which can be found at amazon.com.

An excellent introduction to the doctrine for lay readers is available online is http://www.jewishnotgreek.com.

The references listed at the bottom of the wikipedia article are quite comprehensive as well.

Edited November 10, 2010 by HeatDeath

[HeatDeath 430]

What particular religion is that from?

I learned about the "Inheritance" metaphor for the atonement from the podcasts of Oasis-Wauseon Christian Fellowship, a small church in Ohio, though the idea is almost certainly not original to them.

They can be found in the iTunes podcast directory, and a listing of their sermons is here:

http://www.oasnet.net/sermons/word/word.xml

These two sermons in particular:

http://www.oasnet.net/sermons/word/cales20080210.mp3

and

http://www.oasnet.net/sermons/word/cales20080511.mp3

lay out the argument quite comprehensively.

Edited November 10, 2010 by HeatDeath

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Interesting. As a Catholic, I don't agree that humans DON'T inherit immortality as we believe that our souls continue on after death.