Growing ranks of long-term jobless face tough odds

[evli1966 88]

I just don't understand how anyone still advocates for the sink or swim - winner takes all - approach in America. Realistically, where has it gotten the country and the majority of its citizens? Certainly has not delivered prosperity for most. I guess it's why you guys like gambling so much [all or nothing], because at the end of the day, that is what you are doing.

Whereas, not one person I know in AUS who is worth well into the millions, advocates that they get rid of all safety nets - like indefinite unemployment benefits. Even in a country where people don't play hard or gamble with their life savings, bad times [bad luck] can strike at any time.

What many don't realize with the winner takes all approach is that there is one winner, any the rest are left empty handed. Many here have this erroneous ingrained delusion that they will be the winner and not the person left with nothing.

I do not agree it is a winner take all approach; it is a pay your own way approach.

You seem to be very intelligent and informed how many people in Aus remain on indefinite unemployment and for how long?

I knew someone that was on Aus unemplyment for 1.5 years and when he had to go do some sort of required work(i think building houses) he complained about it because he was an IT. But that is the limit to my knowledge of that issue there in in Aus.

I can tell you from past expereince from family and neighbors and news that American society has bred alot of lazy louts who would millk the system through retirement for no better reason than a thought process that they deserve better pay than they would get.

[Heracles 417]

I do not agree it is a winner take all approach; it is a pay your own way approach.

You seem to be very intelligent and informed how many people in Aus remain on indefinite unemployment and for how long?

I knew someone that was on Aus unemplyment for 1.5 years and when he had to go do some sort of required work(i think building houses) he complained about it because he was an IT. But that is the limit to my knowledge of that issue there in in Aus.

I can tell you from past expereince from family and neighbors and news that American society has bred alot of lazy louts who would millk the system through retirement for no better reason than a thought process that they deserve better pay than they would get.

America is most definitely a winner takes all society. It's why you love the prom queen, school captain and so on; it's embedded in your culture to ignore the people on the side of the road, people in ghettos, people in trailers and just focus on the one winner. All with some delusional belief you too can be them one-day. Basically, people are silly enough to fall for trying to reach the carrot dangled in front of them. In reality, the wealthy will never allow you to acquire that carrot.

Americans are not lazy, many have just given up and think the world sucks. It's why you have so many crazy fucks killing and wanting to blow things up.

First time in my life I saw someone holding onto their used mattress on their car roof, with their belongings in their car, was in the good ole USA. That is when I put two and two together. You guys focus on the winner but ignore the rest. Whereas, countries like Australia are built on giving that guy a hand rather than the erroneous socialist argument. It's called working as a community and putting your country first and its people [over profit] first. The winner will do fine, so why bother even looking at him. Furthermore, we too [for a second] think that he could be us. So we help him as we would like to be helped. I as got out and assisted this guy.

In 100 or so years, Americans will look back at this generation as see it as a failure. A time when profit came first and your countrymen were left for dead. Basically think what a bunch of idiots, willing to sell themselves out for the delusion carrot. Like Canada, Aus doesn't have Bill Gates or Buffet, because we realize they are only two people. What we have is a lot of people doing quite well for themselves and with a high quality of life.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Booyah!

[evli1966 88]

America is most definitely a winner takes all society. It's why you love the prom queen, school captain and so on; it's embedded in your culture to ignore the people on the side of the road, people in ghettos, people in trailers and just focus on the one winner. All with some delusional belief you too can be them one-day. Basically, people are silly enough to fall for trying to reach the carrot dangled in front of them. In reality, the wealthy will never allow you to acquire that carrot.

Americans are not lazy, many have just given up and think the world sucks. It's why you have so many crazy fucks killing and wanting to blow things up.

First time in my life I saw someone holding onto their used mattress on their car roof, with their belongings in their car, was in the good ole USA. That is when I put two and two together. You guys focus on the winner but ignore the rest. Whereas, countries like Australia are built on giving that guy a hand rather than the erroneous socialist argument. It's called working as a community and putting your country first and its people [over profit] first. The winner will do fine, so why bother even looking at him. Furthermore, we too [for a second] think that he could be us. So we help him as we would like to be helped. I as got out and assisted this guy.

In 100 or so years, Americans will look back at this generation as see it as a failure. A time when profit came first and your countrymen were left for dead. Basically think what a bunch of idiots, willing to sell themselves out for the delusion carrot. Like Canada, Aus doesn't have Bill Gates or Buffet, because we realize they are only two people. What we have is a lot of people doing quite well for themselves and with a high quality of life.

What you see is the lack of a socialism in society a big difference between helping someone and giving someone something they did not earn.

I respect and assist friends family and neighbors and even give to certain charities but I do not and will not give to someone that is capable of helping themselves and does not try.

You are correct in that only the future generations will observe what happened and make judgments.

I applaud the young country of Australia for it's diligence in growth but also only time will tell if it's policies will be sustainable with a population in comparable numbers to larger more poulated countries with larger illegal immigrant poplutaion draining the coffers.

[Rebecca Jo 1,962]

What you see is the lack of a socialism in society a big difference between helping someone and giving someone something they did not earn.

I respect and assist friends family and neighbors and even give to certain charities but I do not and will not give to someone that is capable of helping themselves and does not try.

You are correct in that only the future generations will observe what happened and make judgments.

I applaud the young country of Australia for it's diligence in growth but also only time will tell if it's policies will be sustainable with a population in comparable numbers to larger more poulated countries with larger illegal immigrant poplutaion draining the coffers.

Why is there this concept that illegal aliens are responsible for draining the coffers of what little benefit system the US has?

There are supposedly 12 million of them.

There is 10% unemployment in the US. That is 30 million.

The static number for unemployment in this country is between 4% and 5% when the economy is healthy. That is 15 million maximum.

Are all 12 million of these illegals on welfare? Getting housing assistance? Food stamps?

True there are more illegal entrants in this nation than we need who are getting improper assistance. But simple math proves they aren't draining us.

[Pooky 3,347]

There is 10% unemployment in the US. That is 30 million.

Not quite. The unemployment statistic is based on the actual workforce, not the total population of the USA.

Actually, it's based on the actual workforce and those actively searching for work.

[evli1966 88]

Why is there this concept that illegal aliens are responsible for draining the coffers of what little benefit system the US has?

There are supposedly 12 million of them.

There is 10% unemployment in the US. That is 30 million.

The static number for unemployment in this country is between 4% and 5% when the economy is healthy. That is 15 million maximum.

Are all 12 million of these illegals on welfare? Getting housing assistance? Food stamps?

True there are more illegal entrants in this nation than we need who are getting improper assistance. But simple math proves they aren't draining us.

I disagree below is just what is affecting California and all states provide assistance:

The United States relationship with the undocumented community and whether they should receive benefits cannot be answered with a simple no or yes answer, so I'm going to err on the side of human rights and say yes.

In 1997 we passed the Personal Work and Responsibility Act, which was a program designed to help provide temporary cash assistance to low income women and families who are working, and help get them back to work, by providing free or affordable child care.

Since the beginning, the Federal rules for "Temporary Assistance to Needy Families" requires women who receive the cash benefits to eventually attend work training, and undocumented citizens, including PRUCOL aliens, were never qualified to recieve cash grants for this program.

However, there was a loophole in the program.

The babies of undocumented women, are not considered "undocumented", but are given cash benefits as citizens, under the "Zero Parent" category for funding.

As with all funding and programs, the Federal government has one set of rules for a program, and the state has another, especially the state of California

California created a wider choice of options that women could do INSTEAD of work, which still allowed them to qualify for cash, such

Advocates and legislation was passed in California to allow undocumented women who did not speak "English" to be exempted from the work requirements, and even though they were not qualified to receive the cash benefits.

Social service agencies provided loophole programs for undocumented women to receive funding to attend training,through state legislation and advocacy, and the legal people in the household received cash by a loophole which categorizes other members in the immediate household of the undocumented woman as "assistance units".

Hispanic advocacy groups in California such as the Mexican Opportunity Fund, were given huge government grants to run the "alternative payments programs" which provide babysitting cash money to CalWorks recipients.

The Mexican Opportunity Fund is the largest alternative payments provider in California

receiving millions of dollars worth of funding, to manage.

This large advocacy program, and other splinter special interest "Hispanic" programs like this have focused on providing the undocumented women and the Hispanic community with cash assistance.

Ten years since the program began, it has grown over 890% past it's original budget, and has helped fuel a baby boom of undocumented Hispanic women in Southern California

This is only a part of the article her eis the link: http://www.helium.com/debates/106317-should-illegal-immigrants-be-entitled-to-receive-benefits/side_by_side

So yes they are and do drain benefits from the social structure we have in place for US citizens and legal residents.

This is only the cash portion not to mention food assitance and medical assitance please do your math again.

[Rebecca Jo 1,962]

Not quite. The unemployment statistic is based on the actual workforce, not the total population of the USA.

Actually, it's based on the actual workforce and those actively searching for work.

Exactly.

We know there are a lot more.

[Tahoma 2,291]

I just don't understand how anyone still advocates for the sink or swim - winner takes all - approach in America. Realistically, where has it gotten the country and the majority of its citizens? Certainly has not delivered prosperity for most. I guess it's why you guys like gambling so much [all or nothing], because at the end of the day, that is what you are doing.

Whereas, not one person I know in AUS who is worth well into the millions, advocates that they get rid of all safety nets - like indefinite unemployment benefits. Even in a country where people don't play hard or gamble with their life savings, bad times [bad luck] can strike at any time.

What many don't realize with the winner takes all approach is that there is one winner, any the rest are left empty handed. Many here have this erroneous ingrained delusion that they will be the winner and not the person left with nothing.

I fully agree with you...especially the bolded part.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

This article has nothing to do with illegal immigration, nor does it offer food for thought on the subject of illegal immigration. As a practical matter, what difference does it make if manufacturing moves out of the country for cheap labor, or cheap labor comes here for jobs not worth having?

[Tahoma 2,291]

I applaud the young country of Australia for it's diligence in growth but also only time will tell if it's policies will be sustainable with a population in comparable numbers to larger more poulated countries with larger illegal immigrant poplutaion draining the coffers.

OK...I'll bite. How much are the coffers being drained?

Since you seem to have a hard-on for undocumenteds, why don't you also tell us how you feel about Wall Street draining our retirement accounts? How about the illegal war in Iraq? How are the coffers doing? Or, how about the off-shore corporate tax dodges? Or, the bloated military budget? Or, maybe you would care to tell us your views regarding corporate welfare.

Sheesh...talk about making a mountain out of a molehill...your bleating arguments are circling the drain.

[peejay 327]

Good post. But, don't start expecting any deep thought here. Just look at the topic heading. It's comical to picture any illegals picking asparagus applying for the media sales jobs that Martinez is applying for. Yet, that's the OP's delusion.

That's about as asinine a statement as they come. The examples in the article are just that...a couple of examples of the millions of American chronic unemployed. All the millions of unemployed aren't all in media sales. All illegal aliens working illegally in the USA aren't all picking asparagus either. Jeez! Got it?

Actually the point of my jab at the nest of illegal alien cheerleaders and open border zealots that seem to infest VJ in droves for some odd reason is that it is really idiotic to be giving amnesty, permanent residency, and work authorization to millions of illegal aliens when there are millions of American citizens that are chronically unemployed in a long term stagnant economy. Instead of cheerleading about illegal aliens' rights to amnesty we should be ridding the economy of them as fast as we can with mandatory E-Verify/Social Security number no match audits and focusing our resources to putting as many Americans back to work as quickly as possible.

Instead all we hear from Obama and company is that illegal aliens are priority one. Apparently you agree too.

You are really naive and ignorant if you believe all 12+ million illegal aliens in the USA are picking asparagus for sub minimum wages or doing some other sh*t jobs that Americans wouldn't touch.

But carry on with your sanctimonius delusions. Ignorance is bliss.

[ScottThuy 140]

I was watching a latin American talk show last week and the guest speaker went on and on about his perception that The US is dependant upon foreign workers and would collapse without them...

I was baffled by the converstaion he had with the host on the topic... Are jobs created in the US by undocumented foreigners? I suppose there are jobs and businesses created just to cater to those that should not be here,,,,Do the millions of people working in the US illegaly actually affect the number of unemployed legal USC's in the US at all? would there be jobs available if they were not here all of a sudden?

[peejay 327]

I was watching a latin American talk show last week and the guest speaker went on and on about his perception that The US is dependant upon foreign workers and would collapse without them...

I was baffled by the converstaion he had with the host on the topic... Are jobs created in the US by undocumented foreigners? I suppose there are jobs and businesses created just to cater to those that should not be here,,,,Do the millions of people working in the US illegaly actually affect the number of unemployed legal USC's in the US at all? would there be jobs available if they were not here all of a sudden?

Remember the raids on the meatpacking plants several years ago that resulted in the arrests of large numbers of illegal aliens using counterfeit and stolen documentation to get those jobs? The illegals were deported and those jobs were filled by Americans. There was a big media write up about the numbers of Americans that applied to fill those positions. It was well publicized at the time.

Why has the Obama administration stopped these raids and why does his administration instead harp habitually about granting mass amnesty for illegal aliens in this economy? Are some people so blind or totally ignorant that they don't see what is going on? Why do Americans put up with this ####### from their government?

[Tahoma 2,291]

Good post. But, don't start expecting any deep thought here. Just look at the topic heading. It's comical to picture any illegals picking asparagus applying for the media sales jobs that Martinez is applying for. Yet, that's the OP's delusion.

That's about as asinine a statement as they come.

Coming from you, that's a compliment. Thank you.

The examples in the article are just that...a couple of examples of the millions of American chronic unemployed. All the millions of unemployed aren't all in media sales.

Uhhh...then why did you choose to post an article which used examples that were irrelevant to your "open borders" rant? Not one of your smarter moves, was it?

All illegal aliens working illegally in the USA aren't all picking asparagus either. Jeez! Got it?

I was trying to dumb down the discussion to a level where you would get it. However, I now see it's not possible. You are too wrapped up in your rhetoric.

Actually the point of my jab at the nest of illegal alien cheerleaders and open border zealots that seem to infest VJ in droves for some odd reason is that it is really idiotic to be giving amnesty, permanent residency, and work authorization to millions of illegal aliens when there are millions of American citizens that are chronically unemployed in a long term stagnant economy. Instead of cheerleading about illegal aliens' rights to amnesty we should be ridding the economy of them as fast as we can with mandatory E-Verify/Social Security number no match audits and focusing our resources to putting as many Americans back to work as quickly as possible.

Illegal alien cheerleaders? I never saw any of those at my school. Open-border zealots? OK, you got me there. I'm guilty of being to the left of Hitler.

Infest VJ in droves for some odd reason? Oh my...that makes you the oddball doesn't it?

Not once in your diatribe did you assert that unemployed Americans are going to fill the jobs which illegals now perform. Instead, you wimped out by beating around the bush on the subject. Now is your chance say it. Well?

E-Verify? Are you willing to throw your corporate masters in jail and fine them bigtime when they are caught with illegals? I can understand why you wouldn't want to talk about it.

Instead all we hear from Obama and company is that illegal aliens are priority one. Apparently you agree too.

Priority one? Where did I imply that? You seem to be the one with a hard-on for illegals. As a matter of fact, you appear obsessed by the subject. I believe the issue of war and peace, and the issue of health care for all, and equity issues are much bigger issues than illegals. However, nutterz like you, with your failed policies and empty rhetoric, have nothing left to distract the American people with except your usual bleating about illegals.

You are really naive and ignorant if you believe all 12+ million illegal aliens in the USA are picking asparagus for sub minimum wages or doing some other sh*t jobs that Americans wouldn't touch.

All 12+ million? Is that what I said, Einstein? You can't even get that right. However, I will wait patiently for your list of good jobs that illegals have. And while you're at it, you can show us all of those unemployed Americans clamoring for farm jobs, orchard jobs, food processing jobs, and the rest of the sh*t jobs that Americans won't touch.

But carry on with your sanctimonius delusions. Ignorance is bliss.

I can hardly wait for your next incoherent demagoguery. And thank you for your personal testimony about ignorance.