Save Israel

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

You mean it's not true? You mean the founding fathers were not a bunch of malcontents that did not want to pay for the costs of sending an army to defend the colonists against the French and Indians, or that they wanted establish their own trade alliances, without the concerns of the Crown, or Parliament taken into consideration?

Pretty much what Cleo said. The US was founded on good principles, but was also founded through bloodshed and a certain level of terrorism

Boston Massacre, for instance, is similar to recent events. The British guards used deadly force, killing civilians. But in the end who's fault was it really? I would say the colonists, ie us.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I'm curious as to what Bible doesn't have the chapter Revelations or Jesus claiming that through Him is the only way to salvation. Enlighten me, please.

The Quran does teach that there is more than one path, and that there will be Christians and Jews who will enter heaven through the grace and mercy of God, and that Jesus will return on the Day of Judgement. I love that about Islam.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

I'm curious as to what Bible doesn't have the chapter Revelations or Jesus claiming that through Him is the only way to salvation. Enlighten me, please.

The Quran does teach that there is more than one path, and that there will be Christians and Jews who will enter heaven through the grace and mercy of God, and that Jesus will return on the Day of Judgement. I love that about Islam.

Jews and Christians, so says the Quran, will be allowed in to be eternally laughed at and worse, but I guess it is neat they get to go!

Seriously though, zealots of every religion see only truth and light in their beliefs, and the opposite in others. Beyond that, here is what another follower of Islam has to say about what prophet thinks of today's Jews and Christians:

Most of today’s Christians believe in the Trinity or the divinity of Jesus(pbuh). Let’s see what the Qur'an says: The Holy Qur'an 4:171 – Translation by Yusuf Ali

O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in God and His apostles. Say not "Trinity”: desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs.

It is obvious from here that Allah does not consider today’s Trinitarian Christians to be the real followers of Jesus and Allah [1].

But what about the non-trinity Christianity? The answer is quite simple, and I will repeat myself again, who ever believes the corrupted Bible of today, rather then Allah’s word(be the Injil or the Torah), they are not considered believers or True Christians or True Jews.

In Conclusion

The verse is invalid today because the Qur'an does not consider any of the Christians or Jews to be the Jew and Christians who Allah has sent His True Word!

Besides, the verse indicates that those who have died before Islam, as believers, will be judged accordingly. Since Islam is here and it is the only acceptable religion by Allah, the “True” Christians and Jews would convert to Islam, otherwise they are going against the word of Allah and His prophets and His revelations.

And Allah knows best!

http://www.answering-christianity.com/mucahit_sivri/Contra_Will_Christians_and_Jews_be_accepted.htm

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Jews and Christians, so says the Quran, will be allowed in to be eternally laughed at and worse, but I guess it is neat they get to go!

Seriously though, zealots of every religion see only truth and light in their beliefs, and the opposite in others. Beyond that, here is what another follower of Islam has to say about what prophet thinks of today's Jews and Christians:

The fact is, "today's" Jews and Christians are no different than the Jews and Christians of the Prophet's day. The Council of Nicea had settled the question of the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus centuries before Islam came to the Arabs. Muhammad knew these things, but didn't segregate himself from either Christians or Jews.

When the first revelation came to him, he consulted his wife's cousin, a prominent Christian, about how to interpret it. When the tiny Muslim group first encountered aggression in Mecca, they fled to Abysinnia, and the Christian king, who sheltered them and formed a pact of peace and assistance between them. The Quran counseled the Prophet to seek advice form those who had received the Message before him, meaning learned Christians and Jews. It was from the Talmud and the advice of the local rabbis that the stoning of adulterars came. Aisha, the Prophet's youngest bride, was engaged by her father, a great and close friend of the Prophet, to a Christian man whose father was an ally to them. Many early Muslims remained married to Christians and Jews, as well as pagans; some for decades after conversion.

So, if you want to find contradictions in the minds of humans, that's easy to do, especially on propaganda websites. I'm not sure why what this person has to say is important to you, but, if you want to find people who can convince you that Muslims hate you and Islam rejects you, no doubt you will, and that is your choice. Some will make wiser choices, God willing.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

The fact is, "today's" Jews and Christians are no different than the Jews and Christians of the Prophet's day. The Council of Nicea had settled the question of the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus centuries before Islam came to the Arabs. Muhammad knew these things, but didn't segregate himself from either Christians or Jews.

When the first revelation came to him, he consulted his wife's cousin, a prominent Christian, about how to interpret it. When the tiny Muslim group first encountered aggression in Mecca, they fled to Abysinnia, and the Christian king, who sheltered them and formed a pact of peace and assistance between them. The Quran counseled the Prophet to seek advice form those who had received the Message before him, meaning learned Christians and Jews. It was from the Talmud and the advice of the local rabbis that the stoning of adulterars came. Aisha, the Prophet's youngest bride, was engaged by her father, a great and close friend of the Prophet, to a Christian man whose father was an ally to them. Many early Muslims remained married to Christians and Jews, as well as pagans; some for decades after conversion.

So, if you want to find contradictions in the minds of humans, that's easy to do, especially on propaganda websites. I'm not sure why what this person has to say is important to you, but, if you want to find people who can convince you that Muslims hate you and Islam rejects you, no doubt you will, and that is your choice. Some will make wiser choices, God willing.

I believe it is a pretty much universal point of all religions, i.e. the rejection of those who think or believe differently. That does not mean they universally hate those who don't share their viewpoint, but it certainly doesn't rule out hatred of others, and often this problem which is universal to all religions manifests itself as exactly that, hatred.

To say one is a Christian, a Muslim, a Jew, or a member of any other faith for that matter, does not mean a whole lot, since there are so many ways to follow each religion. The 'that congregation is going to hell' mentality one often see's in Christian Churches is universal in terms of 'peaceful' Muslim's and 'radical' Muslim's. Each believes in their flavor of belief while being skeptical of their neighbor.

We are slightly off topic of the OP, but absolutely religion comes into play regarding both the incident on board the ship, and the reactions to the incident. So it is not too suprising to find it in this thread.

For those of us confused about what our own personal belief system is perhaps the Belief-O-Matic can be of assistance.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I believe it is a pretty much universal point of all religions, i.e. the rejection of those who think or believe differently. That does not mean they universally hate those who don't share their viewpoint, but it certainly doesn't rule out hatred of others, and often this problem which is universal to all religions manifests itself as exactly that, hatred.

To say one is a Christian, a Muslim, a Jew, or a member of any other faith for that matter, does not mean a whole lot, since there are so many ways to follow each religion. The 'that congregation is going to hell' mentality one often see's in Christian Churches is universal in terms of 'peaceful' Muslim's and 'radical' Muslim's. Each believes in their flavor of belief while being skeptical of their neighbor.

We are slightly off topic of the OP, but absolutely religion comes into play regarding both the incident on board the ship, and the reactions to the incident. So it is not too suprising to find it in this thread.

For those of us confused about what our own personal belief system is perhaps the Belief-O-Matic can be of assistance.

Is it important for you to look for the hatred and division rather than the things that can bring us together?

[ready4ONE 5,400]

Is it important for you to look for the hatred and division rather than the things that can bring us together?

No. But I truly believe religion is a major driving force for both hatred and division amongst people and nations, historically and through our current time. I don't think any religion get's a pass on that particular fact. I realize most major religions have significant leader's who preach peace and understanding between various faiths, which is commendable. But when push comes to shove, it is logically impossible to have total faith in a particular belief system and not feel on some level that not sharing that particular belief system is a sure path to personal and spiritual destruction for others.Of course faith by it's very nature precludes logic so...

Edited June 5, 2010 by ready4ONE

[ready4ONE 5,400]

My Belief-O-Matic results:

1. Secular Humanism (100%) 2. Unitarian Universalism (90%) 3. Liberal Quakers (77%) 4. Nontheist (70%) 5. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (66%) 6. Theravada Buddhism (64%) 7. Neo-Pagan (64%) 8. New Age (54%) 9. Reform Judaism (44%) 10. Mahayana Buddhism (42%) 11. Taoism (42%) 12. Orthodox Quaker (42%) 13. Scientology (32%) 14. Sikhism (31%) 15. New Thought (30%) 16. Baha'i Faith (29%) 17. Jainism (27%) 18. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (26%) 19. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (23%) 20. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (19%) 21. Hinduism (18%) 22. Seventh Day Adventist (18%) 23. Eastern Orthodox (16%) 24. Islam (16%) 25. Orthodox Judaism (16%) 26. Roman Catholic (16%) 27. Jehovah's Witness (13%)

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

What I find interesting is the Quran seems to indicate that Jews and Christians might be saved. Its a little vague on exactly how but if they believe in Allah and do rightous deeds on Judgement Day they will saved.

So I've tried to put myself, as a Christian, into the perspective of that teaching. I obviously believe that Allah is God, ie. Christians and Muslims both believe in the same God. But since I hold onto the belief that God is the triune God - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit would Islam preclude that I really don't believe in Allah?

They do have an interesting way of saying that, as regards the Jews, calling them "people of the Book" and as such, "worthy of protection." After the Crusades, I am sure any such reference to Christians was deleted.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

They do have an interesting way of saying that, as regards the Jews, calling them "people of the Book" and as such, "worthy of protection." After the Crusades, I am sure any such reference to Christians was deleted.

No deletions, and, as I stated before, protection went both ways. BTW, after the wonderful Spanish Inquistion, many Jews fled to Muslim lands to escape Christian persecution. They were slaughtered by Christians along with Muslims during the Crusades, too, so maybe Christians are on a lot of sh!t lists

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

No deletions, and, as I stated before, protection went both ways. BTW, after the wonderful Spanish Inquistion, many Jews fled to Muslim lands to escape Christian persecution. They were slaughtered by Christians along with Muslims during the Crusades, too, so maybe Christians are on a lot of sh!t lists

There is some conjecture, that many of the Morano Jews, who had sought refuge in Spain from the rest of Europe before the Inquisition, hired on as crew with Columbus, who may very well have been a secret Jew himself. 1492 was also the year Ferdinand and Isabella ordered the Jews to be expunged.

Interesting, also, after that date until the last century, the largest population of Jews was still living in Babylon (Iraq)

[Sofiyya 1,687]

There is some conjecture, that many of the Morano Jews, who had sought refuge in Spain from the rest of Europe before the Inquisition, hired on as crew with Columbus, who may very well have been a secret Jew himself. 1492 was also the year Ferdinand and Isabella ordered the Jews to be expunged.

Interesting, also, after that date until the last century, the largest population of Jews was still living in Babylon (Iraq)

There was a large population of Jews in Morocco until 1961, when many immigrated to Israel soon after Morocco gained independence and permitted a mass exodus to Israel. I was living there then, and, in my travels, continue to this day to meet Jews who grew up in Morocco, but now live in the US or western Europe.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Sofiyya

[Sofiyya 1,687]

"The mess" you refer to was created by colonial Europe and its history of exploitation and oppression in Africa and the ME. It's karma that has them paying and paying. It's also karma that they're too weak now to do much more damage around the globe.

[Krikit 1,163]

USA, britain, and france have been providing war materiel to israel and all her adjoining arab states since 1948 to guarrantee their national securities in balance. several times since then tin pot rulers of these states have gotten uppity and things have gotten out of hand. in 1956 some a-hole named nasser tried to steal the french built suez canal from the french and brits who owned and managed it, israel kicked egyptian a$$ all the way up to the banks, brits moved in and kicked more egyptian a$$, and USA ended up pulling over 100 sunken ships out to get business going again, then fixed all the pipelines that got blown up in the fracas.

long and short of it is, keep the *deleted* on a short leash and swing a big stick, or the dollars we spend in aid will look like nothing compared to what it costs to clean up the mess.

Derogatory term removed from post and text returned to the thread. Please remain within the TOS. Thank you.

[Scott & Lai 12]

Of course faith by it's very nature precludes logic so...