Another Question

[attaya_girl 1]

I know this topic has been discussed and re-discussed, but my fiance called me this morning, and he is so eager to perform the traditional wedding ceremony in Senegal. He swears it's just for tradition and that it's not at all legal, but I'm scared that someone would find out. He's Muslim, and he says that the ceremony involves taking kola nuts (?) to the mosque and that they'll perform a very simple ceremony, etc. I don't know. It's really important to him and his family, but I don't know if we should risk it. He says that to make it legal there has to be paperwork, etc--which I'm sure is true, but I'm still worried that if the embassy decided to dig a little deeper, they'd find all of these people running around in their little neighborhood in the Casamance saying, "oh sure, I remember when they got married" or something like that...I don't want to screw up our K-1 process because of this, but I'm also trying to be sympathetic to his traditions and beliefs, etc.

Sorry for the rambling, but I thought I'd run it by all of you to see if you had similar experiences or worries.

[Bobby+Umit 161]

Muslim? Most ceremonies I have seen that are Muslim are binding (in a legal sense).

Depends on the country/traditions. (and you better believe the consulate would know)

I personally wouldn't risk it.

[Penguin_ie 5,994]

Your fiance is from a high fraud country, and so them digging is a real possibility. I wouldn't risk it. If you can visit after the K1 is issued but before he flies to the USA, do the ceremony then and fly home together it would be slightly less risky but still too risky for my liking.

I am not sure about your personal situation, but how about, after you get married in the USA and he has AP, you fly to Senegal for a honeymoon/ religious ceremony?

[attaya_girl 1]

Yeah that's kind of what I thought. I don't think it's an actual Muslim ceremony-at least that's the impression I got when he was describing it-it's a traditional Senegalese ceremony. Neither of us have to be there for this to happen-his uncle would make the offering or whatever, and we could both be safely in the US when they do it. I'll just tell him to hold his horses and wait till we have the visa.

[reeses16 8]

You should not be married at all (traditional w/o paperwork/civil or religious with paperwork) if you want to use a FIANCE visa. My concern is the even if there were no paperwork/documents associated with the ceremony, you never know what can happen especially if the consulate decides to dig deeper and ask questions of family and neighbors. You can do the traditional ceremony after you are married in the US.

Sounds like an interesting ceremony. Whats the tradition behind it? Is the uncle typically the person who does it, or is his uncle the person he has chosen?

[WhidbeyGirl 1]

What your fiance is requesting isn't a wedding it's an engagement.

MARRIAGE

In Senegal, marriage among those of the Moslem faith, which includes 94% of the population, usually follows traditional Islamic custom with an overlay of ethnic practices. It is an elaborate celebration. Although men marry at a somewhat later age, most women marry between the ages of 14-20 (20-30 in urban areas). Marriage is primarily an arrangement between two families and not between individuals, especially when it is a case of a second or third wife, although today in most of the country the couple to be wed is consulted and their wishes respected. However, great importance is still placed on marrying within the social group.

The courtship begins with the offering of kola nuts to the parents of the bride-to-be by the suitor's family. If the father accepts them, a bride price is established ("la dot") and a date for the ceremony at the mosque is arranged. The origins of "la dot" probably signify imparting a guarantee of stability and also a compensation to the bride's family for the loss of one of its members.

The day of the "tying of the marriage" the uncles and fathers of the betrothed (the couple to be married are not present) meet at the mosque. Three witnesses are present before the marabout, and kola nuts brought by the bride's father are distributed to the guests. The remainder of the dowry is now handed over to the bride's father by the groom's father or other male relative. The average dowry now is over 100,000 CFA but among the urban bourgeoisie it may be 500,000 CFA or more. After the mosque formalities the groom delivers to the bride's home all the gifts she asked for and which have previously been agreed upon: usually a wooden bed, a radio, a watch, shoes, etc. (Today this may also include a television or VCR.) Then a goat, a sheep, or a cow is killed and food prepared for the assembled guests (the bride and groom remain separately in their own homes.)

When all the dowry is paid and accounted for, a wedding date can then be set. Marriage ceremonies should be held on Thursday evening, but today because of work constraints the weddings are often held on Sunday. The bride prepares herself at home as close friends help wash, perfume and dress her in white clothes with a white veil or pagne (cloth) covering her face. Her hands are dyed with henna and her hair is braided with beads or coins. If she is Peul or Toucouleur she will wear 3 gris-gris around her neck to protect her against evil spirits. After drumming and feasting all night at the bride's home until about 5 o'clock in the morning, she goes to the home of her new husband. There a cow or sheep is killed and more food prepared and the celebration continues until evening. From this time on the bride stays with her husband. The next few days involve various rites and ritual feasting marking the bride's official membership in the husband's compound. One week later the "jour de linge" (laundry day) marks the end of the honeymoon. The wife and her friends gather up all the laundry from the week and go to the well. Clothing and linens may be deliberately soiled by the husband's friends; dancing and celebrating highlighted by a special feast mark this day.

Polygamy is much in evidence in Senegal, and it is usually regarded as a sign of wealth to have up to 4 wives (the maximum allowed by Islam.) Agricultural life which required many hands to work in the fields and the home encouraged polygamy, but where women have been freed from this work, polygamy is largely a luxury, depending on wealth and prestige. Wives will usually live together in the husband's compound with the first wife holding the senior position. In rural areas, co-wives may share a common living room and visit their husband's room on a rotational basis. In wealthier compounds, however, the co-wives have separate rooms and in Dakar they may even have separate villas (see Ousmane Sembene's book "Xala"). The husband alternately spends two nights with each of his wives who are expected to prepare the meals for the entire compound on those days. Rivalries may spring up between or among co-wives even though they are expected to treat one another like sisters. Among the younger, more educated class, polygamy is not as much in favor as in the more traditional levels of society.

[attaya_girl 1]

It is actually a marriage ceremony that he's requesting-not the engagement. We've done that part (including the dowry--very interesting and surreal). His uncle (since his father passed away) will bring the kola nuts to the imam at the local mosque, and he then performs the ceremony. I'm honestly not certain how exactly it goes from there, but it is a type of marriage ceremony--which it looks like we'll put on hold for now. I know the traditions in the Casamance tend to vary from the traditions in other areas of the country...

[WhidbeyGirl 1]

I guess the part that I don't understand is why do you not have to be there if it's a marriage ceremony? Interesting to say the least.

[attaya_girl 1]

I don't know if it's just this way in Senegal, but I know several people in Senegal who were married while one or the other were away in Europe, the US, or other parts of Africa. This isn't the legal ceremony, though. When they are both in Senegal again, they go down and sign the paperwork (i.e. specifying the number of wives--romantic), etc. I had a couple of professors in Senegal who were studying abroad in the US or Europe (both women) and the ceremony was performed while they were away, and the documents filled out a year or two later. Not really my idea of romance, but that's how they did it.

[Zee Bee 61]

I guess the part that I don't understand is why do you not have to be there if it's a marriage ceremony? Interesting to say the least.

This is actually quite common, especially for Africans who live outside the country. My BIL and his wife were married in this way.

Talking from my experience in Ghana: The traditional part is about the family awareness. It is when the 2 families officially meet for the first time and they make the arrangements for the marriage and decide on a brideprice, present the kola nuts etc etc. At this point they can do the ceremony to announce them as husband and wife to the community (or in some cases, the intention of them becoming husband and wife). In a lot of cases neither the bride or groom will say anything at this ceremony. Everything is discussed among the elders of the families.

Once the traditional part is over a lot of couples will either do the white wedding and have the papers there to sign, or go to the local courthouse to sign the papers. In some cases this step is done months or even years after the traditional ceremony.

[Afrilaskan Queen 0]

I have a Muslim family member, who immigrated over 5 years ago on a fiance visa - they had the legal ceremony in the US, however they committed to each other in a traditional family oriented ceremony, dresses and everything, for his family [i.e. I think afterwards they were able to sleep in the same room] but didn't sign any legal documents. They said they were married in their heart. I do not know if they did that on purpose, I have no idea the details. This was not Senegal though, but rather a northern african country.

I have not read your other topics about this but I completely understand why you're so concerned about it, it sounds like you're feeling great pressure - and goodness knows you don't wish to not consider the feelings of your fiance and future in-laws. Goodness is there a book on this at the library or something? lol.. What I am wondering is does your fiance recognize the ramifications on the two of you if this ceremony is perceived as legal? And are those consequences something he has considered having to bear?

I am wondering if all of these individuals involved may be able to write an affidavit, to be prepared in the future, explaining that this is a committment and tradition of the people. I am wondering what each aspect of the ceremony involves or means and what benefit that you both derive from it. I think the context of it would be important more then the actual ceremony.

Also when I was married I was not sure if by my US State it was considered legal and binding, I wanted to change my name - I think it is worth checking with your local state to find out what is considered a legally binding marriage taken from outside the country, that is because so many think they are marrying legally to find out later it is not considered so here.

That is all that I can think of. Also the last thought I had was that if he and the family are anxious to do this ceremony, why at this time? Is it possible to wait until you have your fiance visa completed? I'm sure you have asked this...I wonder what does the ceremony do in terms of you and him, does it allow certain privledges that are not allowed before, or how does it alter your relationship? Is there an time frame this is usually done in, why now?

I think this is all so very interesting, I find traditions and other cultures so fascinating. I know it's a great concern, I guess it is trying to find out how the country itself views such a ceremony, because I do think that immigration has to take into consideration culture and that things are done differently in many areas.

I wish you all the best in making an decision. p.s. Does your fiance realize how much you are paining yourself over this decision? Take Care

[attaya_girl 1]

I have a Muslim family member, who immigrated over 5 years ago on a fiance visa - they had the legal ceremony in the US, however they committed to each other in a traditional family oriented ceremony, dresses and everything, for his family [i.e. I think afterwards they were able to sleep in the same room] but didn't sign any legal documents. They said they were married in their heart. I do not know if they did that on purpose, I have no idea the details. This was not Senegal though, but rather a northern african country.

I have not read your other topics about this but I completely understand why you're so concerned about it, it sounds like you're feeling great pressure - and goodness knows you don't wish to not consider the feelings of your fiance and future in-laws. Goodness is there a book on this at the library or something? lol.. What I am wondering is does your fiance recognize the ramifications on the two of you if this ceremony is perceived as legal? And are those consequences something he has considered having to bear?

I am wondering if all of these individuals involved may be able to write an affidavit, to be prepared in the future, explaining that this is a committment and tradition of the people. I am wondering what each aspect of the ceremony involves or means and what benefit that you both derive from it. I think the context of it would be important more then the actual ceremony.

Also when I was married I was not sure if by my US State it was considered legal and binding, I wanted to change my name - I think it is worth checking with your local state to find out what is considered a legally binding marriage taken from outside the country, that is because so many think they are marrying legally to find out later it is not considered so here.

That is all that I can think of. Also the last thought I had was that if he and the family are anxious to do this ceremony, why at this time? Is it possible to wait until you have your fiance visa completed? I'm sure you have asked this...I wonder what does the ceremony do in terms of you and him, does it allow certain privledges that are not allowed before, or how does it alter your relationship? Is there an time frame this is usually done in, why now?

I think this is all so very interesting, I find traditions and other cultures so fascinating. I know it's a great concern, I guess it is trying to find out how the country itself views such a ceremony, because I do think that immigration has to take into consideration culture and that things are done differently in many areas.

I wish you all the best in making an decision. p.s. Does your fiance realize how much you are paining yourself over this decision? Take Care

Thank-you. My fiance is by no means pressuring me to do this-it's something that he would very much like to do, but he understands our situation and is certainly willing to wait. I guess part of the difficulty is that I want to do this is as well-I'm excited to be married to him in one sense or the other, but of course i realize that this just isn't a typical situation and that we'll have to wait.

I should also say that his family is excited for us to be married, but is also not pressuring us. I have his sisters and cousins and aunts and uncles calling me every couple of days asking me when I'm going to marry Lamine. One of his sisters is about to have a baby and wants to name it after me if it's a girl. She keeps teasing me about wanting me to be a family member before she steals my name, etc. They're so sweet and patient-they're just excited.

Edited June 20, 2009 by attaya_girl

[Afrilaskan Queen 0]

Hey there attayagirl - I completely understand - I got married at my husband's country, somewhat soon after I met in person because I was thrilled and in love, I didn't think about the immigration affects because at the time I didn't know them and I wanted to do things traditional with my family there. Sounds like you have such a wonderful loving family and this is an exciting time - i agree it's rather sad to have to think of the ramifications, because you want to live together too. I love your picture - so much joy! Wishing you all the best, sorry I don't have an degree in immigration law - wish I did, I can tell you want to go and be merry with your family. Thanks for sharing, I'm going to read about Senegal, it's really interesting - and look forward to updates on your relationship. All the Best.

[reeses16 8]

I guess the part that I don't understand is why do you not have to be there if it's a marriage ceremony? Interesting to say the least.

I was surprised by this too. I was talking to a VJ member from MENA who was married by proxy. She was in the US and a ceremony took place in her husband's country. There was a woman who stood-in for her for the ceremony. Can't remember if her hubby had a stand in too. I think they had to prove that the marriage had been consummated through...basically proof of meeting AFTER the ceremony. There are others who were married by proxy. I had never heard of it before.

[WhidbeyGirl 1]

I guess the part that I don't understand is why do you not have to be there if it's a marriage ceremony? Interesting to say the least.

I was surprised by this too. I was talking to a VJ member from MENA who was married by proxy. She was in the US and a ceremony took place in her husband's country. There was a woman who stood-in for her for the ceremony. Can't remember if her hubby had a stand in too. I think they had to prove that the marriage had been consummated through...basically proof of meeting AFTER the ceremony. There are others who were married by proxy. I had never heard of it before.

There are actually a few states here in the US that allow marriage by proxy - Texas being one of them. There is a woman who filed in March for IR1/CR1 and she was married by proxy, she was in Texas and her husband in France, they were married by a minister in Texas. I thought though, that most proxy marriages need one of the couple present, guess I was wrong