McKenzie -11yo Girl Field Stripping AR15

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Overt racism (that is, the KKK) is overrated sure, but that has nothing to do with racial inequalities in this country. The fact remains that if you're a black male you are far more likely than any other group to experience poverty, get paid less money, have a poorer level of education, be the product of a broken home, have a lowered life expectancy or be in jail (and receive harsher prison sentences than whites for equivalent crimes).

Obamas election is held up as a symbolic victory for African Americans - that they can finally feel part of the American dream, at least that's how I perceive the excitement over his election. Beyond that it doesn't mean that a century or two of race related social problems vanish overnight.

So yes, overt racism is overrated, but to focus on that is to miss the point.

Paul, many of your observations are accurate, but the bolded is not. The media represents this falsehood, but if you look at the census, you'll find that it's not so.

BTW, your contributions are appreciated. Considering that most of the people on this forum have spouses that are immigrants, it's incredible to see the amount of fear, hatred and ignorance regarding minority groups.

Perhaps I'm looking at the wrong data. I made that conclusion from census data in an old thread that addressed this issue.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/poverty05/table5.html

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/hstpov2.html

Exactly....you have to look at the numbers and the percentages. The data is sometimes not easy to decipher.

What it comes out to is if you have a room full of only Black people, then nearly 25% may be under the poverty line.

But if you mix in a proportionate number of White people (whereas Blacks only account for 13% of the population in the US)

you'd see that the number of Whites below the poverty line is at least double that of the Blacks.

Therefore, Blacks are not more likely to be below the poverty line, and are not the sole benefactors of the welfare system as some

would represent.

Right. Because there are numerically more whites than blacks in the us.

The only relevant point surely is that if you're black you are statistically more likely to experience poverty, even though there are quantitatively more whites than blacks in poverty.

To use a crude analogy - if someone told you one brand of car had double the chance of failure than another, even though that other brand had more cars on the roads (and by extension, more failed cars) what would that tell you about the quality of the first brand?

You can indeed interpret statistics in different ways, but as far as probability goes, it isn't rocket science.

[Ling Ling 22]

Overt racism (that is, the KKK) is overrated sure, but that has nothing to do with racial inequalities in this country. The fact remains that if you're a black male you are far more likely than any other group to experience poverty, get paid less money, have a poorer level of education, be the product of a broken home, have a lowered life expectancy or be in jail (and receive harsher prison sentences than whites for equivalent crimes).

Obamas election is held up as a symbolic victory for African Americans - that they can finally feel part of the American dream, at least that's how I perceive the excitement over his election. Beyond that it doesn't mean that a century or two of race related social problems vanish overnight.

So yes, overt racism is overrated, but to focus on that is to miss the point.

Paul, many of your observations are accurate, but the bolded is not. The media represents this falsehood, but if you look at the census, you'll find that it's not so.

BTW, your contributions are appreciated. Considering that most of the people on this forum have spouses that are immigrants, it's incredible to see the amount of fear, hatred and ignorance regarding minority groups.

Perhaps I'm looking at the wrong data. I made that conclusion from census data in an old thread that addressed this issue.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/poverty05/table5.html

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/hstpov2.html

Exactly....you have to look at the numbers and the percentages. The data is sometimes not easy to decipher.

What it comes out to is if you have a room full of only Black people, then nearly 25% may be under the poverty line.

But if you mix in a proportionate number of White people (whereas Blacks only account for 13% of the population in the US)

you'd see that the number of Whites below the poverty line is at least double that of the Blacks.

Therefore, Blacks are not more likely to be below the poverty line, and are not the sole benefactors of the welfare system as some

would represent.

Right. Because there are numerically more whites than blacks in the us.

The only relevant point surely is that if you're black you are statistically more likely to experience poverty, even though there are quantitatively more whites than blacks in poverty.

To use a crude analogy - if someone told you one brand of car had double the chance of failure than another, even though that other brand had more cars on the roads (and by extension, more failed cars) what would that tell you about the quality of the first brand?

You can indeed interpret statistics in different ways, but as far as probability goes, it isn't rocket science.

Considering that 100 years ago, nearly 100% of all Blacks in the US were under the poverty line, I'd say less than a 25% probability is pretty damned good.

I see your point, but my point is that Blacks in the US do not account for the majority of those living under the poverty line today.

For some people it's a very difficult fact to comprehend, especially given the media's misrepresentation. Much more difficult than trajectory and payload calculations.

[HAL 9000 96]

We have a black President. Enough with the 'poor minorities' bollocks.

I must have missed it on the news...all prejudice and discrimination in the United States of America suddenly and completely disappeared the moment Barack Obama was elected President. I'm certainly very happy to hear that. I wonder what other news I missed.

It's not that it all disappeared,...... its that it was evidently, way overrated.

Overt racism (that is, the KKK) is overrated sure, but that has nothing to do with racial inequalities in this country. The fact remains that if you're a black male you are far more likely than any other group to experience poverty, get paid less money, have a poorer level of education, be the product of a broken home, have a lowered life expectancy or be in jail (and receive harsher prison sentences than whites for equivalent crimes).

Obamas election is held up as a symbolic victory for African Americans - that they can finally feel part of the American dream, at least that's how I perceive the excitement over his election. Beyond that it doesn't mean that a century or two of race related social problems vanish overnight.

So yes, overt racism is overrated, but to focus on that is to miss the point.

While that may be true, I'd have to say that those conditions are partly the fault of African Americans themselves.

No, I'm not being racist.

Within the African American community there seems to be a sub-culture revolving around "self-defeatism." In other words, if a black man is educated and becomes successful, he's often criticized as "selling out" or being an "Uncle Tom." If the same black man does neither of the above and remains in impoverished surroundings, he and others there tend to shift the blame to individuals who "have a better life."

I think that if the African American community wishes to raise their overall standard of living, they need to heavily promote education, professional success and responsibility. There's nothing inherently inferior about African Americans. They can succeed just as well as any other group if they work hard at it.

No, this isn't some "Horatio Alger" mindset. Doing what I suggest is hard work and not everyone will make it. There's no guarantee in life (except for death and taxes, of course). However, if success is actively aimed for, I can't help but see more succeeding than those who don't. It's certainly worth a shot.

I can heartily disagree. Living 5 minutes from Chicago's Brownsville neighborhood, I can see plenty of examples where upwards mobility for African Americans is not a predominant 'sellout' story. That gripe that you do refer to is altogether another story that has more to do with people turning their back on their community in rather a selfish way.

And in plenty of other places you can see African Americans working their backs off just like anyone else without much to show for their effort.

The defeatist, food-stamp attitude is one that isn't quite prevalent unless of course you're referring to those technically forced into such status because they do not have the qualifications to seek and retain employment making wages that are sustainable for them- hence their poverty status. And the champion of such divalent economics that keep wages down come from one socioeconomic philosophy that favors less burdens on the rich.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Overt racism (that is, the KKK) is overrated sure, but that has nothing to do with racial inequalities in this country. The fact remains that if you're a black male you are far more likely than any other group to experience poverty, get paid less money, have a poorer level of education, be the product of a broken home, have a lowered life expectancy or be in jail (and receive harsher prison sentences than whites for equivalent crimes).

Obamas election is held up as a symbolic victory for African Americans - that they can finally feel part of the American dream, at least that's how I perceive the excitement over his election. Beyond that it doesn't mean that a century or two of race related social problems vanish overnight.

So yes, overt racism is overrated, but to focus on that is to miss the point.

Paul, many of your observations are accurate, but the bolded is not. The media represents this falsehood, but if you look at the census, you'll find that it's not so.

BTW, your contributions are appreciated. Considering that most of the people on this forum have spouses that are immigrants, it's incredible to see the amount of fear, hatred and ignorance regarding minority groups.

Perhaps I'm looking at the wrong data. I made that conclusion from census data in an old thread that addressed this issue.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/poverty05/table5.html

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/hstpov2.html

Exactly....you have to look at the numbers and the percentages. The data is sometimes not easy to decipher.

What it comes out to is if you have a room full of only Black people, then nearly 25% may be under the poverty line.

But if you mix in a proportionate number of White people (whereas Blacks only account for 13% of the population in the US)

you'd see that the number of Whites below the poverty line is at least double that of the Blacks.

Therefore, Blacks are not more likely to be below the poverty line, and are not the sole benefactors of the welfare system as some

would represent.

Right. Because there are numerically more whites than blacks in the us.

The only relevant point surely is that if you're black you are statistically more likely to experience poverty, even though there are quantitatively more whites than blacks in poverty.

To use a crude analogy - if someone told you one brand of car had double the chance of failure than another, even though that other brand had more cars on the roads (and by extension, more failed cars) what would that tell you about the quality of the first brand?

You can indeed interpret statistics in different ways, but as far as probability goes, it isn't rocket science.

Considering that 100 years ago, nearly 100% of all Blacks in the US were under the poverty line, I'd say less than a 25% probability is pretty damned good.

I see your point, but my point is that Blacks in the US do not account for the majority of those living under the poverty line today.

For some people it's a very difficult fact to comprehend, especially given the media's misrepresentation. Much more difficult than trajectory and payload calculations.

Right. Its a valid point, but on balance you would have a 1 in 4 chance of poverty while mine is 1 in 10. That certainly speaks for persistent inequalities

[Ling Ling 22]

Right. Its a valid point, but on balance you would have a 1 in 4 chance of poverty while mine is 1 in 10. That certainly speaks for persistent inequalities

Correct you are. Care to elaborate on why these statistics are skewed, and why the perception is skewed as well?

[HAL 9000 96]

HAL 9000 officially likes the analysis brought forward.

[Tahoma 2,291]

While that may be true, I'd have to say that those conditions are partly the fault of African Americans themselves.

That's like saying it's the nail's fault that the hammer hit it.

Black people have not asked to be discriminated against, pre-judged, or hated because of the color of their skin.

No, I'm not being racist.

OK...so you're not a racist...just spewing racist rhetoric.

Within the African American community there seems to be a sub-culture revolving around "self-defeatism." In other words, if a black man is educated and becomes successful, he's often criticized as "selling out" or being an "Uncle Tom." If the same black man does neither of the above and remains in impoverished surroundings, he and others there tend to shift the blame to individuals who "have a better life."

You watch a lot of TV don't you? Guess what, so do a lot of Black youth. There may now be a handful of Black owned TV stations, but not nearly as much as the White owned TV stations. It's the White owned TV stations that first started PROMOTING this idea of the "sell-out". Take the "Jeffersons" show for example.

George Jefferson is a successful dry cleaner, but at every instance he's made to look like a jive talking, jive walking, buffoon or as you would say a "sell-out".

This image has been promoted so much, that not only does White America believe it, but so does Black America.

Believe it or not, my parents and the parents of my friends didn't teach us about the "sell-out". That was taught to us by the media. We were taught to be as successful as we could be...and that there's no shame in speaking proper English, or studying, or pulling your pants up, or wearing a belt, or having career aspirations that don't include gold rims and a fabulous crib.

If anything is defeatist, it is the media that surrounds us, educates us, and changes our reality for the worse.

I think that if the African American community wishes to raise their overall standard of living, they need to heavily promote education, professional success and responsibility. There's nothing inherently inferior about African Americans. They can succeed just as well as any other group if they work hard at it.

Thank you for your non racist opinion that there's nothing "inherently inferior".

So you really believe that the Black community does not promote education, professional success, and responsibility?

Perhaps you have no idea what it means to be disenfranchised. Perhaps you have no idea what it means to come from a family where you will be the first college graduate from your family. Perhaps you have no idea what it means to come from a family where you may be the first homeowner, or first doctor, or first lawyer.

Perhaps you have no idea that only within the last 100 years have Black people been able to own property. Only within the last 60 years have Black people had the opportunity to attend the same quality of education as their White counterparts.

Your last line is the best, and speaks volumes of truth. "They can succeed just as well as any other group if they work hard at it".

The Black community has known this for years, and are still saddened (but not defeated) that we have to work harder just to arrive at the same goals as other groups.

No, this isn't some "Horatio Alger" mindset. Doing what I suggest is hard work and not everyone will make it. There's no guarantee in life (except for death and taxes, of course). However, if success is actively aimed for, I can't help but see more succeeding than those who don't. It's certainly worth a shot.

Here's a guarantee....if you take one group of people and allow them to work, prosper, will & inherit money, become educated, vote & be elected, for 300 years....

and you take another group during the same time period, but literally hold them back with chains for the first 200 years, make them work for free, do not allow them to prosper or become educated or have any political power....and then expect them to simply compete at the same level because you say it's equal now....it will not happen. I'm not saying anyone needs handouts or welfare, but that as long as you throw away the history that created the disparity, and as long as you buy into the media's representation, we will all move forward at a very slow pace.

All I wanted to say -- and perhaps I hit a few nerves in the process -- was that there is no difference between African Americans and any other group when it comes to what can be achieved. Maybe it's more difficult for some black people due to certain circumstances, but that doesn't mean they can't become successful in the end.

Please understand that I was not attempting to be racist, but merely speak on how highly capable one group of people can be, despite some issues in this nation's history. If you still believe I'm doing nothing more than "spewing racist rhetoric," then there's no point in trying to convince you otherwise.

If you acknowledge that racism, discrimination, or prejudice exists, then minorities, as individuals, and, therefore, minorities as groups, do not have the same chances as everyone else. If one person in a group is discriminated against, then the entire group is affected. I know of whites who would not ever consider hiring a minority. I know minorities who have not received promotions that they unquestionably deserved. I have heard with my own ears unmistakable racist rantings from many many people. If African Americans "work hard at it", and yet face racism, discrimination, or prejudice...how does that give them "the same chances as everyone else"...either individually or as a group?

If the "certain circumstances" (that you don't seem to want to talk about) happen to be discrimination, how can you say that everyone has the same chances to succeed? If any minority (as an individual or as a group) has to work harder because of discrimination to "become successful in the end", is that your idea of a level playing field?

[Ling Ling 22]

If you acknowledge that racism, discrimination, or prejudice exists, then minorities, as individuals, and, therefore, minorities as groups, do not have the same chances as everyone else. If one person in a group is discriminated against, then the entire group is affected. I know of whites who would not ever consider hiring a minority. I know minorities who have not received promotions that they unquestionably deserved. I have heard with my own ears unmistakable racist rantings from many many people. If African Americans "work hard at it", and yet face racism, discrimination, or prejudice...how does that give them "the same chances as everyone else"...either individually or as a group?

If the "certain circumstances" (that you don't seem to want to talk about) happen to be discrimination, how can you say that everyone has the same chances to succeed? If any minority (as an individual or as a group) has to work harder because of discrimination to "become successful in the end", is that your idea of a level playing field?

Well said

[Danno 1,228]

I have noticed the template in these conversations has changed over the last 25 years.

We use to hear the "White vs Minority" complaint. That Whites just will not give minorities a chance. Now it's mostly White vs Black.

Because now we see minorities from almost every group succeeding in America. The Asians I might guess are leading the pack.

I stood amazed at the number of small businesses started up by newly arriving Hispanics in my city. IN fact we have whole areas of such businesses. They rent a empty store front, buy equipment at Auctions and in no time they have an eatery, market or some other business.

It's

really amazing to watch the american Capitalist system work.

Who are these people pushing Shaved-ice carts or selling flowers on the corner, starting up a produce business or a car-wash? Why is it you never see them sitting idle, complaining that others see them as "illegals" or "wet-Backs"? They just put their hand to the plow and succeed, some in small ways and some, quite prosperously.

I recall one time a few months back, I was in a clients home, a middle aged Black woman, when a mexican man with a young (maybe 14) girl with him knocked at the door.

I thought he was there to maybe cut the grass, but instead they stood and waited for her and I to finish our business. Later she told me that this guy does cut her grass, in exchange for english lessons for him and his Daughter. (This lady was a retired school teacher).

The hispanics will clearly out-do our African American folks in a number of areas as have most other minorities.

Are we now to believe that of all the races in the world, it is only the color of black skin which the whites want to keep down?

Soon Hispanics will be the majority population in this country, what excuse will you offer them as the reason for Black failure?

When excuses are plentiful, results are few.

We need a monumental change in black leadership.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Danno

[HAL 9000 96]

I have noticed the template in these conversations has changed over the last 25 years.

We use to hear the "White vs Minority" complaint. That Whites just will not give minorities a chance. Now it's mostly White vs Black.

Because now we see minorities from almost every group succeeding in America. The Asians I might guess are leading the pack.

I stood amazed at the number of small businesses started up by newly arriving Hispanics in my city. IN fact we have whole areas of such businesses. They rent a empty store front, buy equipment at Auctions and in no time they have an eatery, market or some other business.

It's

really amazing to watch the american Capitalist system work.

Who are these people pushing Shaved-ice carts or selling flowers on the corner, starting up a produce business or a car-wash? Why is it you never see them sitting idle, complaining that others see them as "illegals" or "wet-Backs"? They just put their hand to the plow and succeed, some in small ways and some, quite prosperously.

I recall one time a few months back, I was in a clients home, a middle aged Black woman, when a mexican man with a young (maybe 14) girl with him knocked at the door.

I thought he was there to maybe cut the grass, but instead they stood and waited for her and I to finish our business. Later she told me that this guy does cut her grass, in exchange for english lessons for him and his Daughter. (This lady was a retired school teacher).

The hispanics will clearly out-do our African American folks in a number of areas as have most other minorities.

Are we now to believe that of all the races in the world, it is only the color of black skin which the whites want to keep down?

Soon Hispanics will be the majority population in this country, what excuse will you offer them as the reason for Black failure?

When excuses are plentiful, results are few.

We need a monumental change in black leadership.

Ummm... that for the most part, Hispanics are not African Americans?

And yet again- see how YOU word it. Black failure. You are generalizing your own bias unto the supposed failure of a skin color that is apparently not yours. That in itself reeks of racist undertones- although that does not make you per se a racist.

[DeadPoolX 9]

While that may be true, I'd have to say that those conditions are partly the fault of African Americans themselves.

That's like saying it's the nail's fault that the hammer hit it.

Black people have not asked to be discriminated against, pre-judged, or hated because of the color of their skin.

No, I'm not being racist.

OK...so you're not a racist...just spewing racist rhetoric.

Within the African American community there seems to be a sub-culture revolving around "self-defeatism." In other words, if a black man is educated and becomes successful, he's often criticized as "selling out" or being an "Uncle Tom." If the same black man does neither of the above and remains in impoverished surroundings, he and others there tend to shift the blame to individuals who "have a better life."

You watch a lot of TV don't you? Guess what, so do a lot of Black youth. There may now be a handful of Black owned TV stations, but not nearly as much as the White owned TV stations. It's the White owned TV stations that first started PROMOTING this idea of the "sell-out". Take the "Jeffersons" show for example.

George Jefferson is a successful dry cleaner, but at every instance he's made to look like a jive talking, jive walking, buffoon or as you would say a "sell-out".

This image has been promoted so much, that not only does White America believe it, but so does Black America.

Believe it or not, my parents and the parents of my friends didn't teach us about the "sell-out". That was taught to us by the media. We were taught to be as successful as we could be...and that there's no shame in speaking proper English, or studying, or pulling your pants up, or wearing a belt, or having career aspirations that don't include gold rims and a fabulous crib.

If anything is defeatist, it is the media that surrounds us, educates us, and changes our reality for the worse.

I think that if the African American community wishes to raise their overall standard of living, they need to heavily promote education, professional success and responsibility. There's nothing inherently inferior about African Americans. They can succeed just as well as any other group if they work hard at it.

Thank you for your non racist opinion that there's nothing "inherently inferior".

So you really believe that the Black community does not promote education, professional success, and responsibility?

Perhaps you have no idea what it means to be disenfranchised. Perhaps you have no idea what it means to come from a family where you will be the first college graduate from your family. Perhaps you have no idea what it means to come from a family where you may be the first homeowner, or first doctor, or first lawyer.

Perhaps you have no idea that only within the last 100 years have Black people been able to own property. Only within the last 60 years have Black people had the opportunity to attend the same quality of education as their White counterparts.

Your last line is the best, and speaks volumes of truth. "They can succeed just as well as any other group if they work hard at it".

The Black community has known this for years, and are still saddened (but not defeated) that we have to work harder just to arrive at the same goals as other groups.

No, this isn't some "Horatio Alger" mindset. Doing what I suggest is hard work and not everyone will make it. There's no guarantee in life (except for death and taxes, of course). However, if success is actively aimed for, I can't help but see more succeeding than those who don't. It's certainly worth a shot.

Here's a guarantee....if you take one group of people and allow them to work, prosper, will & inherit money, become educated, vote & be elected, for 300 years....

and you take another group during the same time period, but literally hold them back with chains for the first 200 years, make them work for free, do not allow them to prosper or become educated or have any political power....and then expect them to simply compete at the same level because you say it's equal now....it will not happen. I'm not saying anyone needs handouts or welfare, but that as long as you throw away the history that created the disparity, and as long as you buy into the media's representation, we will all move forward at a very slow pace.

All I wanted to say -- and perhaps I hit a few nerves in the process -- was that there is no difference between African Americans and any other group when it comes to what can be achieved. Maybe it's more difficult for some black people due to certain circumstances, but that doesn't mean they can't become successful in the end.

Please understand that I was not attempting to be racist, but merely speak on how highly capable one group of people can be, despite some issues in this nation's history. If you still believe I'm doing nothing more than "spewing racist rhetoric," then there's no point in trying to convince you otherwise.

If you acknowledge that racism, discrimination, or prejudice exists, then minorities, as individuals, and, therefore, minorities as groups, do not have the same chances as everyone else. If one person in a group is discriminated against, then the entire group is affected. I know of whites who would not ever consider hiring a minority. I know minorities who have not received promotions that they unquestionably deserved. I have heard with my own ears unmistakable racist rantings from many many people. If African Americans "work hard at it", and yet face racism, discrimination, or prejudice...how does that give them "the same chances as everyone else"...either individually or as a group?

If the "certain circumstances" (that you don't seem to want to talk about) happen to be discrimination, how can you say that everyone has the same chances to succeed? If any minority (as an individual or as a group) has to work harder because of discrimination to "become successful in the end", is that your idea of a level playing field?

Legally-speaking, everyone has the same rights, privileges and opportunities in the U.S. Whether or not everyone can make use of those is a different matter. In addition, I'm very much against the idea of self-inflicted victimization. That goes for any race, color, ethnicity or religion. If you want something to happen, you go out and do it. Waiting for the right opportunity to "fall into your lap" is highly unlikely.

[HAL 9000 96]

While that may be true, I'd have to say that those conditions are partly the fault of African Americans themselves.

That's like saying it's the nail's fault that the hammer hit it.

Black people have not asked to be discriminated against, pre-judged, or hated because of the color of their skin.

No, I'm not being racist.

OK...so you're not a racist...just spewing racist rhetoric.

Within the African American community there seems to be a sub-culture revolving around "self-defeatism." In other words, if a black man is educated and becomes successful, he's often criticized as "selling out" or being an "Uncle Tom." If the same black man does neither of the above and remains in impoverished surroundings, he and others there tend to shift the blame to individuals who "have a better life."

You watch a lot of TV don't you? Guess what, so do a lot of Black youth. There may now be a handful of Black owned TV stations, but not nearly as much as the White owned TV stations. It's the White owned TV stations that first started PROMOTING this idea of the "sell-out". Take the "Jeffersons" show for example.

George Jefferson is a successful dry cleaner, but at every instance he's made to look like a jive talking, jive walking, buffoon or as you would say a "sell-out".

This image has been promoted so much, that not only does White America believe it, but so does Black America.

Believe it or not, my parents and the parents of my friends didn't teach us about the "sell-out". That was taught to us by the media. We were taught to be as successful as we could be...and that there's no shame in speaking proper English, or studying, or pulling your pants up, or wearing a belt, or having career aspirations that don't include gold rims and a fabulous crib.

If anything is defeatist, it is the media that surrounds us, educates us, and changes our reality for the worse.

I think that if the African American community wishes to raise their overall standard of living, they need to heavily promote education, professional success and responsibility. There's nothing inherently inferior about African Americans. They can succeed just as well as any other group if they work hard at it.

Thank you for your non racist opinion that there's nothing "inherently inferior".

So you really believe that the Black community does not promote education, professional success, and responsibility?

Perhaps you have no idea what it means to be disenfranchised. Perhaps you have no idea what it means to come from a family where you will be the first college graduate from your family. Perhaps you have no idea what it means to come from a family where you may be the first homeowner, or first doctor, or first lawyer.

Perhaps you have no idea that only within the last 100 years have Black people been able to own property. Only within the last 60 years have Black people had the opportunity to attend the same quality of education as their White counterparts.

Your last line is the best, and speaks volumes of truth. "They can succeed just as well as any other group if they work hard at it".

The Black community has known this for years, and are still saddened (but not defeated) that we have to work harder just to arrive at the same goals as other groups.

No, this isn't some "Horatio Alger" mindset. Doing what I suggest is hard work and not everyone will make it. There's no guarantee in life (except for death and taxes, of course). However, if success is actively aimed for, I can't help but see more succeeding than those who don't. It's certainly worth a shot.

Here's a guarantee....if you take one group of people and allow them to work, prosper, will & inherit money, become educated, vote & be elected, for 300 years....

and you take another group during the same time period, but literally hold them back with chains for the first 200 years, make them work for free, do not allow them to prosper or become educated or have any political power....and then expect them to simply compete at the same level because you say it's equal now....it will not happen. I'm not saying anyone needs handouts or welfare, but that as long as you throw away the history that created the disparity, and as long as you buy into the media's representation, we will all move forward at a very slow pace.

All I wanted to say -- and perhaps I hit a few nerves in the process -- was that there is no difference between African Americans and any other group when it comes to what can be achieved. Maybe it's more difficult for some black people due to certain circumstances, but that doesn't mean they can't become successful in the end.

Please understand that I was not attempting to be racist, but merely speak on how highly capable one group of people can be, despite some issues in this nation's history. If you still believe I'm doing nothing more than "spewing racist rhetoric," then there's no point in trying to convince you otherwise.

If you acknowledge that racism, discrimination, or prejudice exists, then minorities, as individuals, and, therefore, minorities as groups, do not have the same chances as everyone else. If one person in a group is discriminated against, then the entire group is affected. I know of whites who would not ever consider hiring a minority. I know minorities who have not received promotions that they unquestionably deserved. I have heard with my own ears unmistakable racist rantings from many many people. If African Americans "work hard at it", and yet face racism, discrimination, or prejudice...how does that give them "the same chances as everyone else"...either individually or as a group?

If the "certain circumstances" (that you don't seem to want to talk about) happen to be discrimination, how can you say that everyone has the same chances to succeed? If any minority (as an individual or as a group) has to work harder because of discrimination to "become successful in the end", is that your idea of a level playing field?

Legally-speaking, everyone has the same rights, privileges and opportunities in the U.S. Whether or not everyone can make use of those is a different matter. In addition, I'm very much against the idea of self-inflicted victimization. That goes for any race, color, ethnicity or religion. If you want something to happen, you go out and do it. Waiting for the right opportunity to "fall into your lap" is highly unlikely.

Brother DPX... you are indeed thinking right. Nobody should deserve to self-inflict victimization. I wonder if you are aware of social psychology and how people and communities internalize historical circumstance.

But- its not about being legal. Its about changing the attitudes that did shape the law in the past and are still apparently shaping some attitudes to this day, for better or for worse.

Until we have a society that is devoid of the social and racial sins of the past- we will continue to see victimization, imposed or self-inflicted, as well as efforts to correct the inequalities that result from as such.

[DeadPoolX 9]

While that may be true, I'd have to say that those conditions are partly the fault of African Americans themselves.

That's like saying it's the nail's fault that the hammer hit it.

Black people have not asked to be discriminated against, pre-judged, or hated because of the color of their skin.

No, I'm not being racist.

OK...so you're not a racist...just spewing racist rhetoric.

Within the African American community there seems to be a sub-culture revolving around "self-defeatism." In other words, if a black man is educated and becomes successful, he's often criticized as "selling out" or being an "Uncle Tom." If the same black man does neither of the above and remains in impoverished surroundings, he and others there tend to shift the blame to individuals who "have a better life."

You watch a lot of TV don't you? Guess what, so do a lot of Black youth. There may now be a handful of Black owned TV stations, but not nearly as much as the White owned TV stations. It's the White owned TV stations that first started PROMOTING this idea of the "sell-out". Take the "Jeffersons" show for example.

George Jefferson is a successful dry cleaner, but at every instance he's made to look like a jive talking, jive walking, buffoon or as you would say a "sell-out".

This image has been promoted so much, that not only does White America believe it, but so does Black America.

Believe it or not, my parents and the parents of my friends didn't teach us about the "sell-out". That was taught to us by the media. We were taught to be as successful as we could be...and that there's no shame in speaking proper English, or studying, or pulling your pants up, or wearing a belt, or having career aspirations that don't include gold rims and a fabulous crib.

If anything is defeatist, it is the media that surrounds us, educates us, and changes our reality for the worse.

I think that if the African American community wishes to raise their overall standard of living, they need to heavily promote education, professional success and responsibility. There's nothing inherently inferior about African Americans. They can succeed just as well as any other group if they work hard at it.

Thank you for your non racist opinion that there's nothing "inherently inferior".

So you really believe that the Black community does not promote education, professional success, and responsibility?

Perhaps you have no idea what it means to be disenfranchised. Perhaps you have no idea what it means to come from a family where you will be the first college graduate from your family. Perhaps you have no idea what it means to come from a family where you may be the first homeowner, or first doctor, or first lawyer.

Perhaps you have no idea that only within the last 100 years have Black people been able to own property. Only within the last 60 years have Black people had the opportunity to attend the same quality of education as their White counterparts.

Your last line is the best, and speaks volumes of truth. "They can succeed just as well as any other group if they work hard at it".

The Black community has known this for years, and are still saddened (but not defeated) that we have to work harder just to arrive at the same goals as other groups.

No, this isn't some "Horatio Alger" mindset. Doing what I suggest is hard work and not everyone will make it. There's no guarantee in life (except for death and taxes, of course). However, if success is actively aimed for, I can't help but see more succeeding than those who don't. It's certainly worth a shot.

Here's a guarantee....if you take one group of people and allow them to work, prosper, will & inherit money, become educated, vote & be elected, for 300 years....

and you take another group during the same time period, but literally hold them back with chains for the first 200 years, make them work for free, do not allow them to prosper or become educated or have any political power....and then expect them to simply compete at the same level because you say it's equal now....it will not happen. I'm not saying anyone needs handouts or welfare, but that as long as you throw away the history that created the disparity, and as long as you buy into the media's representation, we will all move forward at a very slow pace.

All I wanted to say -- and perhaps I hit a few nerves in the process -- was that there is no difference between African Americans and any other group when it comes to what can be achieved. Maybe it's more difficult for some black people due to certain circumstances, but that doesn't mean they can't become successful in the end.

Please understand that I was not attempting to be racist, but merely speak on how highly capable one group of people can be, despite some issues in this nation's history. If you still believe I'm doing nothing more than "spewing racist rhetoric," then there's no point in trying to convince you otherwise.

If you acknowledge that racism, discrimination, or prejudice exists, then minorities, as individuals, and, therefore, minorities as groups, do not have the same chances as everyone else. If one person in a group is discriminated against, then the entire group is affected. I know of whites who would not ever consider hiring a minority. I know minorities who have not received promotions that they unquestionably deserved. I have heard with my own ears unmistakable racist rantings from many many people. If African Americans "work hard at it", and yet face racism, discrimination, or prejudice...how does that give them "the same chances as everyone else"...either individually or as a group?

If the "certain circumstances" (that you don't seem to want to talk about) happen to be discrimination, how can you say that everyone has the same chances to succeed? If any minority (as an individual or as a group) has to work harder because of discrimination to "become successful in the end", is that your idea of a level playing field?

Legally-speaking, everyone has the same rights, privileges and opportunities in the U.S. Whether or not everyone can make use of those is a different matter. In addition, I'm very much against the idea of self-inflicted victimization. That goes for any race, color, ethnicity or religion. If you want something to happen, you go out and do it. Waiting for the right opportunity to "fall into your lap" is highly unlikely.

Brother DPX... you are indeed thinking right. Nobody should deserve to self-inflict victimization. I wonder if you are aware of social psychology and how people and communities internalize historical circumstance.

But- its not about being legal. Its about changing the attitudes that did shape the law in the past and are still apparently shaping some attitudes to this day, for better or for worse.

Until we have a society that is devoid of the social and racial sins of the past- we will continue to see victimization, imposed or self-inflicted, as well as efforts to correct the inequalities that result from as such.

I actually do know quite a bit about social psychology. I always thought it was interesting.

Here's the catch -- no society is completely devoid of social issues. Unless we had a hive mind, there's always going to be dissent and dissatisfaction. Someone will always feel as if they're getting a raw deal. That's human nature and how society works.

The only way to effectively reduce these problems is by people making a conscious effort to improve their own lives. If they can do that, they might actually be able to assist others and maybe even provide incentive to succeed.

[HAL 9000 96]

Good. Problem is, DPX... that each society has specific circumstance. The USA is no exception.

I think that empowering people and communities together with the real tools for change- education as a starting point- is a better way to go than merely opening eyes as we see fit. For all we know, plenty of eyes are already open- yet get shoved into categories that have little to do with changing attitudes to get over the injustices of the past.

Than again its easy for us to discuss it all isn't it?

* Rollover post balance: 4 *

[DeadPoolX 9]

Good. Problem is, DPX... that each society has specific circumstance. The USA is no exception.

I think that empowering people and communities together with the real tools for change- education as a starting point- is a better way to go than merely opening eyes as we see fit. For all we know, plenty of eyes are already open- yet get shoved into categories that have little to do with changing attitudes to get over the injustices of the past.

Than again its easy for us to discuss it all isn't it?

* Rollover post balance: 4 *

I agree with you on education. Yes, it's very easy for us to sit here and discuss it. Part of the problem is that discussion is usually the only thing occurring. Action is also needed.