McKenzie -11yo Girl Field Stripping AR15

[Tahoma 2,298]

I don't know which universe you live in, but it is certainly not the same one that I live in. I live in what could be called a "liberal" state, and I have personally witnessed prejudice and discrimination against minorities. The list of transgressions is too long to go into. Most of it revolves around hiring, promotions, and in conversations. I can guarantee you that those transgressors do not give minorities "the same chances" as everyone else. I can only imagine how it must be in other parts of the country.

Well now there's your problem......

You are working under the assumption that a "liberal state" would be any less racist.

Those of us who have lived in a liberal State and other places (like me) might have a different opinion.

Wonder if we were to compare stats on such things as...

Poverty

Discrimination suits filed.

Number of Race based groups.

Integration

etc..... if we would see California or other such liberal states as "shinning beacons" on the hill in this country full of hate?

You are completely missing the point, so let me simplify it for you...

> You said that minorities have the same chances as everyone else.

> I said that they don't have the same chances as everyone else.

> I told you why minorities don't have the same chances as everyone else.

> You have yet to explain how it is that minorities have the same chance as everyone else.

[EstebanTrabajos 7]

And I declare,

You

....as the most brilliant poster here at VJ!

and I declare cancer cured!

...and peace in the Middle East

....and Oprah back down to 150 LBS

Hey this is fun!!!!!

truth hurts? I know...

What I'm sure about is that you are not the most brilliant poster in VJ, sorry that I couldn't return the courtesy Duke

Edited January 2, 2009 by TävôLuDô

[Danno 1,228]

IN the first place, if you are going to quote me, then please do so.

I don't think I said

"they have the same chances as anyone"

(in my city we have a 50% drop out rate with black males in high school, how would it ever be possible for them to have the same chance as anyone?)

I did say something like:

The racism factor was over rated.

[Tahoma 2,298]

IN the first place, if you are going to quote me, then please do so.

I don't think I said

"they have the same chances as anyone"

(in my city we have a 50% drop out rate with black males in high school, how would it ever be possible for them to have the same chance as anyone?)

I did say something like:

The racism factor was over rated.

Danno...

> Would you care to respond to the question that you were asked in Post # 82, where it questioned your view about racism "evidently" being overrated?

> Would you care to comment on Post # 83, about racism being overrated?

> Would you care to comment on why, in Post # 89, you attacked my response to Post # 87, which made the point about all minorities not getting the same chances as everyone else? Are you still in agreement with DeadPoolX on this issue?

[DeadPoolX 9]

WOW!

Cannot believe it! that's amazing!

P.S. call me when she gets a scholarship for college based on grades

I will, just as soon as minorities stop getting special consideration based on race or gender.

1. This young lady appears to be not only competent with what she's doing, but also enjoying it,

and enjoying it with her father. What's wrong with that?

2. How do you know minorities get special consideration based on race or gender?

3. What's wrong with minorities getting a chance to move ahead in the world?

4. Minority means they lack financial or political power per se.

5. Is there any small chance you're a white male who feels you're special?

6. Is there any small chance you're a white male who's excuse for failure is because of the "minority advantage"?

1. Nothing's wrong with this girl enjoying her activities. I believe you have me confused with someone else, as I've never said anything against her.

2. Affirmative Action is one such case. Another is quotas based entirely on gender and race.

3. I think minorities should get all the same chances everyone else does. That means no special privileges or programs to "help" when someone can't cut it. Otherwise the only fair thing to do is give everyone -- regardless of race or gender -- the same government programs.

4. Minority means just that -- a small representation. Jews, therefore, should be a minority (they make up about 2% of the U.S. population), but they aren't. Women, on the other hand, are considered a minority with over 51% of the population being female. Does that make sense? I don't think so.

5. No one is special. That's the point.

6. Not at all. I know I'm more than capable to handle the world without a handicap.

I don't know which universe you live in, but it is certainly not the same one that I live in. I live in what could be called a "liberal" state, and I have personally witnessed prejudice and discrimination against minorities. The list of transgressions is too long to go into. Most of it revolves around hiring, promotions, and in conversations. I can guarantee you that those transgressors do not give minorities "the same chances" as everyone else. I can only imagine how it must be in other parts of the country. While you may have led a sheltered life, it gives you no right to ignore what is going on around you in this country.

I think we've already established that.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

We have a black President. Enough with the 'poor minorities' bollocks.

I must have missed it on the news...all prejudice and discrimination in the United States of America suddenly and completely disappeared the moment Barack Obama was elected President. I'm certainly very happy to hear that. I wonder what other news I missed.

It's not that it all disappeared,...... its that it was evidently, way overrated.

Overt racism (that is, the KKK) is overrated sure, but that has nothing to do with racial inequalities in this country. The fact remains that if you're a black male you are far more likely than any other group to experience poverty, get paid less money, have a poorer level of education, be the product of a broken home, have a lowered life expectancy or be in jail (and receive harsher prison sentences than whites for equivalent crimes).

Obamas election is held up as a symbolic victory for African Americans - that they can finally feel part of the American dream, at least that's how I perceive the excitement over his election. Beyond that it doesn't mean that a century or two of race related social problems vanish overnight.

So yes, overt racism is overrated, but to focus on that is to miss the point.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Paul Daniels

[DeadPoolX 9]

We have a black President. Enough with the 'poor minorities' bollocks.

I must have missed it on the news...all prejudice and discrimination in the United States of America suddenly and completely disappeared the moment Barack Obama was elected President. I'm certainly very happy to hear that. I wonder what other news I missed.

It's not that it all disappeared,...... its that it was evidently, way overrated.

Overt racism (that is, the KKK) is overrated sure, but that has nothing to do with racial inequalities in this country. The fact remains that if you're a black male you are far more likely than any other group to experience poverty, get paid less money, have a poorer level of education, be the product of a broken home, have a lowered life expectancy or be in jail (and receive harsher prison sentences than whites for equivalent crimes).

Obamas election is held up as a symbolic victory for African Americans - that they can finally feel part of the American dream, at least that's how I perceive the excitement over his election. Beyond that it doesn't mean that a century or two of race related social problems vanish overnight.

So yes, overt racism is overrated, but to focus on that is to miss the point.

While that may be true, I'd have to say that those conditions are partly the fault of African Americans themselves.

No, I'm not being racist.

Within the African American community there seems to be a sub-culture revolving around "self-defeatism." In other words, if a black man is educated and becomes successful, he's often criticized as "selling out" or being an "Uncle Tom." If the same black man does neither of the above and remains in impoverished surroundings, he and others there tend to shift the blame to individuals who "have a better life."

I think that if the African American community wishes to raise their overall standard of living, they need to heavily promote education, professional success and responsibility. There's nothing inherently inferior about African Americans. They can succeed just as well as any other group if they work hard at it.

No, this isn't some "Horatio Alger" mindset. Doing what I suggest is hard work and not everyone will make it. There's no guarantee in life (except for death and taxes, of course). However, if success is actively aimed for, I can't help but see more succeeding than those who don't. It's certainly worth a shot.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

We have a black President. Enough with the 'poor minorities' bollocks.

I must have missed it on the news...all prejudice and discrimination in the United States of America suddenly and completely disappeared the moment Barack Obama was elected President. I'm certainly very happy to hear that. I wonder what other news I missed.

It's not that it all disappeared,...... its that it was evidently, way overrated.

Overt racism (that is, the KKK) is overrated sure, but that has nothing to do with racial inequalities in this country. The fact remains that if you're a black male you are far more likely than any other group to experience poverty, get paid less money, have a poorer level of education, be the product of a broken home, have a lowered life expectancy or be in jail (and receive harsher prison sentences than whites for equivalent crimes).

Obamas election is held up as a symbolic victory for African Americans - that they can finally feel part of the American dream, at least that's how I perceive the excitement over his election. Beyond that it doesn't mean that a century or two of race related social problems vanish overnight.

So yes, overt racism is overrated, but to focus on that is to miss the point.

While that may be true, I'd have to say that those conditions are partly the fault of African Americans themselves.

No, I'm not being racist.

Within the African American community there seems to be a sub-culture revolving around "self-defeatism." In other words, if a black man is educated and becomes successful, he's often criticized as "selling out" or being an "Uncle Tom." If the same black man does neither of the above and remains in impoverished surroundings, he and others there tend to shift the blame to individuals who "have a better life."

I think that if the African American community wishes to raise their overall standard of living, they need to heavily promote education, professional success and responsibility. There's nothing inherently inferior about African Americans. They can succeed just as well as any other group if they work hard at it.

No, this isn't some "Horatio Alger" mindset. Doing what I suggest is hard work and not everyone will make it. There's no guarantee in life (except for death and taxes, of course). However, if success is actively aimed for, I can't help but see more succeeding than those who don't. It's certainly worth a shot.

Forgive me for saying this - but that's a pretty simplistic statement of the obvious. Its certainly not wrong, but its hardly a profound revelation - to myself or indeed to the black community. Speaking as an outsider (i.e. not being black myself) its hard to say anything on this subject that doesn't sound trite, but this is a subject that's been the subject of intense debate within the black community for decades - that as much as they are still experiencing some overt racism and institutional discrimination, there does need to be an attitude shift at the grass roots level to raise their status in society.

I don't think anyone (outside of people whose concept of the black community relies on gangsta-rap stereotypes) would deny that this is a complex issue involving many interrelated causal factors (not least that the black community is, in some respects, divided against itself) and with few, obvious simple solutions.

It is however easy to point a finger of blame, which is why I tend to find discussions on this issue infuriating.

[Ling Ling 22]

While that may be true, I'd have to say that those conditions are partly the fault of African Americans themselves.

That's like saying it's the nail's fault that the hammer hit it.

Black people have not asked to be discriminated against, pre-judged, or hated because of the color of their skin.

No, I'm not being racist.

OK...so you're not a racist...just spewing racist rhetoric.

Within the African American community there seems to be a sub-culture revolving around "self-defeatism." In other words, if a black man is educated and becomes successful, he's often criticized as "selling out" or being an "Uncle Tom." If the same black man does neither of the above and remains in impoverished surroundings, he and others there tend to shift the blame to individuals who "have a better life."

You watch a lot of TV don't you? Guess what, so do a lot of Black youth. There may now be a handful of Black owned TV stations, but not nearly as much as the White owned TV stations. It's the White owned TV stations that first started PROMOTING this idea of the "sell-out". Take the "Jeffersons" show for example.

George Jefferson is a successful dry cleaner, but at every instance he's made to look like a jive talking, jive walking, buffoon or as you would say a "sell-out".

This image has been promoted so much, that not only does White America believe it, but so does Black America.

Believe it or not, my parents and the parents of my friends didn't teach us about the "sell-out". That was taught to us by the media. We were taught to be as successful as we could be...and that there's no shame in speaking proper English, or studying, or pulling your pants up, or wearing a belt, or having career aspirations that don't include gold rims and a fabulous crib.

If anything is defeatist, it is the media that surrounds us, educates us, and changes our reality for the worse.

I think that if the African American community wishes to raise their overall standard of living, they need to heavily promote education, professional success and responsibility. There's nothing inherently inferior about African Americans. They can succeed just as well as any other group if they work hard at it.

Thank you for your non racist opinion that there's nothing "inherently inferior".

So you really believe that the Black community does not promote education, professional success, and responsibility?

Perhaps you have no idea what it means to be disenfranchised. Perhaps you have no idea what it means to come from a family where you will be the first college graduate from your family. Perhaps you have no idea what it means to come from a family where you may be the first homeowner, or first doctor, or first lawyer.

Perhaps you have no idea that only within the last 100 years have Black people been able to own property. Only within the last 60 years have Black people had the opportunity to attend the same quality of education as their White counterparts.

Your last line is the best, and speaks volumes of truth. "They can succeed just as well as any other group if they work hard at it".

The Black community has known this for years, and are still saddened (but not defeated) that we have to work harder just to arrive at the same goals as other groups.

No, this isn't some "Horatio Alger" mindset. Doing what I suggest is hard work and not everyone will make it. There's no guarantee in life (except for death and taxes, of course). However, if success is actively aimed for, I can't help but see more succeeding than those who don't. It's certainly worth a shot.

Here's a guarantee....if you take one group of people and allow them to work, prosper, will & inherit money, become educated, vote & be elected, for 300 years....

and you take another group during the same time period, but literally hold them back with chains for the first 200 years, make them work for free, do not allow them to prosper or become educated or have any political power....and then expect them to simply compete at the same level because you say it's equal now....it will not happen. I'm not saying anyone needs handouts or welfare, but that as long as you throw away the history that created the disparity, and as long as you buy into the media's representation, we will all move forward at a very slow pace.

[Ling Ling 22]

Overt racism (that is, the KKK) is overrated sure, but that has nothing to do with racial inequalities in this country. The fact remains that if you're a black male you are far more likely than any other group to experience poverty, get paid less money, have a poorer level of education, be the product of a broken home, have a lowered life expectancy or be in jail (and receive harsher prison sentences than whites for equivalent crimes).

Obamas election is held up as a symbolic victory for African Americans - that they can finally feel part of the American dream, at least that's how I perceive the excitement over his election. Beyond that it doesn't mean that a century or two of race related social problems vanish overnight.

So yes, overt racism is overrated, but to focus on that is to miss the point.

Paul, many of your observations are accurate, but the bolded is not. The media represents this falsehood, but if you look at the census, you'll find that it's not so.

BTW, your contributions are appreciated. Considering that most of the people on this forum have spouses that are immigrants, it's incredible to see the amount of fear, hatred and ignorance regarding minority groups.

[DeadPoolX 9]

While that may be true, I'd have to say that those conditions are partly the fault of African Americans themselves.

That's like saying it's the nail's fault that the hammer hit it.

Black people have not asked to be discriminated against, pre-judged, or hated because of the color of their skin.

No, I'm not being racist.

OK...so you're not a racist...just spewing racist rhetoric.

Within the African American community there seems to be a sub-culture revolving around "self-defeatism." In other words, if a black man is educated and becomes successful, he's often criticized as "selling out" or being an "Uncle Tom." If the same black man does neither of the above and remains in impoverished surroundings, he and others there tend to shift the blame to individuals who "have a better life."

You watch a lot of TV don't you? Guess what, so do a lot of Black youth. There may now be a handful of Black owned TV stations, but not nearly as much as the White owned TV stations. It's the White owned TV stations that first started PROMOTING this idea of the "sell-out". Take the "Jeffersons" show for example.

George Jefferson is a successful dry cleaner, but at every instance he's made to look like a jive talking, jive walking, buffoon or as you would say a "sell-out".

This image has been promoted so much, that not only does White America believe it, but so does Black America.

Believe it or not, my parents and the parents of my friends didn't teach us about the "sell-out". That was taught to us by the media. We were taught to be as successful as we could be...and that there's no shame in speaking proper English, or studying, or pulling your pants up, or wearing a belt, or having career aspirations that don't include gold rims and a fabulous crib.

If anything is defeatist, it is the media that surrounds us, educates us, and changes our reality for the worse.

I think that if the African American community wishes to raise their overall standard of living, they need to heavily promote education, professional success and responsibility. There's nothing inherently inferior about African Americans. They can succeed just as well as any other group if they work hard at it.

Thank you for your non racist opinion that there's nothing "inherently inferior".

So you really believe that the Black community does not promote education, professional success, and responsibility?

Perhaps you have no idea what it means to be disenfranchised. Perhaps you have no idea what it means to come from a family where you will be the first college graduate from your family. Perhaps you have no idea what it means to come from a family where you may be the first homeowner, or first doctor, or first lawyer.

Perhaps you have no idea that only within the last 100 years have Black people been able to own property. Only within the last 60 years have Black people had the opportunity to attend the same quality of education as their White counterparts.

Your last line is the best, and speaks volumes of truth. "They can succeed just as well as any other group if they work hard at it".

The Black community has known this for years, and are still saddened (but not defeated) that we have to work harder just to arrive at the same goals as other groups.

No, this isn't some "Horatio Alger" mindset. Doing what I suggest is hard work and not everyone will make it. There's no guarantee in life (except for death and taxes, of course). However, if success is actively aimed for, I can't help but see more succeeding than those who don't. It's certainly worth a shot.

Here's a guarantee....if you take one group of people and allow them to work, prosper, will & inherit money, become educated, vote & be elected, for 300 years....

and you take another group during the same time period, but literally hold them back with chains for the first 200 years, make them work for free, do not allow them to prosper or become educated or have any political power....and then expect them to simply compete at the same level because you say it's equal now....it will not happen. I'm not saying anyone needs handouts or welfare, but that as long as you throw away the history that created the disparity, and as long as you buy into the media's representation, we will all move forward at a very slow pace.

All I wanted to say -- and perhaps I hit a few nerves in the process -- was that there is no difference between African Americans and any other group when it comes to what can be achieved. Maybe it's more difficult for some black people due to certain circumstances, but that doesn't mean they can't become successful in the end.

Please understand that I was not attempting to be racist, but merely speak on how highly capable one group of people can be, despite some issues in this nation's history. If you still believe I'm doing nothing more than "spewing racist rhetoric," then there's no point in trying to convince you otherwise.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Overt racism (that is, the KKK) is overrated sure, but that has nothing to do with racial inequalities in this country. The fact remains that if you're a black male you are far more likely than any other group to experience poverty, get paid less money, have a poorer level of education, be the product of a broken home, have a lowered life expectancy or be in jail (and receive harsher prison sentences than whites for equivalent crimes).

Obamas election is held up as a symbolic victory for African Americans - that they can finally feel part of the American dream, at least that's how I perceive the excitement over his election. Beyond that it doesn't mean that a century or two of race related social problems vanish overnight.

So yes, overt racism is overrated, but to focus on that is to miss the point.

Paul, many of your observations are accurate, but the bolded is not. The media represents this falsehood, but if you look at the census, you'll find that it's not so.

BTW, your contributions are appreciated. Considering that most of the people on this forum have spouses that are immigrants, it's incredible to see the amount of fear, hatred and ignorance regarding minority groups.

Perhaps I'm looking at the wrong data. I made that conclusion from census data in an old thread that addressed this issue.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/poverty05/table5.html

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/hstpov2.html

[Ling Ling 22]

Overt racism (that is, the KKK) is overrated sure, but that has nothing to do with racial inequalities in this country. The fact remains that if you're a black male you are far more likely than any other group to experience poverty, get paid less money, have a poorer level of education, be the product of a broken home, have a lowered life expectancy or be in jail (and receive harsher prison sentences than whites for equivalent crimes).

Obamas election is held up as a symbolic victory for African Americans - that they can finally feel part of the American dream, at least that's how I perceive the excitement over his election. Beyond that it doesn't mean that a century or two of race related social problems vanish overnight.

So yes, overt racism is overrated, but to focus on that is to miss the point.

Paul, many of your observations are accurate, but the bolded is not. The media represents this falsehood, but if you look at the census, you'll find that it's not so.

BTW, your contributions are appreciated. Considering that most of the people on this forum have spouses that are immigrants, it's incredible to see the amount of fear, hatred and ignorance regarding minority groups.

Perhaps I'm looking at the wrong data. I made that conclusion from census data in an old thread that addressed this issue.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/poverty05/table5.html

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/hstpov2.html

Exactly....you have to look at the numbers and the percentages. The data is sometimes not easy to decipher.

What it comes out to is if you have a room full of only Black people, then nearly 25% may be under the poverty line.

But if you mix in a proportionate number of White people (whereas Blacks only account for 13% of the population in the US)

you'd see that the number of Whites below the poverty line is at least double that of the Blacks.

Therefore, Blacks are not more likely to be below the poverty line, and are not the sole benefactors of the welfare system as some

would represent.

[Ling Ling 22]

All I wanted to say -- and perhaps I hit a few nerves in the process -- was that there is no difference between African Americans and any other group when it comes to what can be achieved. Maybe it's more difficult for some black people due to certain circumstances, but that doesn't mean they can't become successful in the end.

Please understand that I was not attempting to be racist, but merely speak on how highly capable one group of people can be, despite some issues in this nation's history. If you still believe I'm doing nothing more than "spewing racist rhetoric," then there's no point in trying to convince you otherwise.

But DeadPoolX, there is a difference in what can be achieved. Black people started off in CHAINS for 200 years.

Let's say we're in a race. All of your parents, grand-parents, and great grand-parents have had training for races, and access to race courses.

They've passed on the knowledge, experience, and access to you. Now I've had none of those, but you expect me to have the same opportunity for success?

I don't believe you were attempting to be a racist, and I believe you have good intentions. However, you continue to view the Black community through the glasses

placed on you by the media. Spewing racist rhetoric is entirely different from being a racist. I'm convinced that you have good intentions, but also that you actually believe the media....to wit, "conditions are partly the fault of African Americans themselves", and "they need to heavily promote education, professional success and responsibility". On face value, one would think that Black children sit around the dinner table talking about the adventures of selling crack instead of inquiring about homework and grades. The ideals of education, success, responsibility, and citizenship are no less promoted in the Black family than they are in any other group.

True there are some that do not promote these ideals, but that's true in every race and every culture. The propensity to be poor, under educated, irresponsible failures is a sad human trait, but not one inherent to any race. To think so would be stereotyping or pre-judging based on random circumstances of birth.

[MariaBonita 11]

Damn! She's good!!!!

(didn't watch the AR15 video, maybe later)