Hamas shut off the power to Palestine

[Risto 0]

Besides that you can't create a LAWFUL state inside someone elses country!

I can not agree more about this

Then why are you suggesting that Palestine created a state inside Jordan?

My previous post was regarding creation of palestinian state inside Israel

[♥JP♥ 5]

Besides that you can't create a LAWFUL state inside someone elses country!

I can not agree more about this

Then why are you suggesting that Palestine created a state inside Jordan?

My previous post was regarding creation of palestinian state inside Israel

Exactly and you contradicted yourself. If Palestine can create a Lawful state in Jordan or any other Arab country then they should be able to create one in Israel! Anyway they don't want to "create" a state in Israel, they want it to be REINSTATED as they were there before the state of Israel was created!

[GaryC 7]

Besides that you can't create a LAWFUL state inside someone elses country!

I can not agree more about this

Then why are you suggesting that Palestine created a state inside Jordan?

My previous post was regarding creation of palestinian state inside Israel

Exactly and you contradicted yourself. If Palestine can create a Lawful state in Jordan or any other Arab country then they should be able to create one in Israel! Anyway they don't want to "create" a state in Israel, they want it to be REINSTATED as they were there before the state of Israel was created!

Before Israel there was a country called Palestine?

[simple_male 1]

Besides that you can't create a LAWFUL state inside someone elses country!

I can not agree more about this

Then why are you suggesting that Palestine created a state inside Jordan?

My previous post was regarding creation of palestinian state inside Israel

Exactly and you contradicted yourself. If Palestine can create a Lawful state in Jordan or any other Arab country then they should be able to create one in Israel! Anyway they don't want to "create" a state in Israel, they want it to be REINSTATED as they were there before the state of Israel was created!

Risto does good job copying and pasting. So it is not surprising to see contradiction in Risto's posts. These members have proven their hatred against Arabs and Muslims.

[GaryC 7]

Besides that you can't create a LAWFUL state inside someone elses country!

I can not agree more about this

Then why are you suggesting that Palestine created a state inside Jordan?

My previous post was regarding creation of palestinian state inside Israel

Exactly and you contradicted yourself. If Palestine can create a Lawful state in Jordan or any other Arab country then they should be able to create one in Israel! Anyway they don't want to "create" a state in Israel, they want it to be REINSTATED as they were there before the state of Israel was created!

Risto does good job copying and pasting. So it is not surprising to see contradiction in Risto's posts. These members have proven their hatred against Arabs and Muslims.

And you have proved your hatred for Jews.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Besides that you can't create a LAWFUL state inside someone elses country!

I can not agree more about this

Then why are you suggesting that Palestine created a state inside Jordan?

My previous post was regarding creation of palestinian state inside Israel

Exactly and you contradicted yourself. If Palestine can create a Lawful state in Jordan or any other Arab country then they should be able to create one in Israel! Anyway they don't want to "create" a state in Israel, they want it to be REINSTATED as they were there before the state of Israel was created!

Risto does good job copying and pasting. So it is not surprising to see contradiction in Risto's posts. These members have proven their hatred against Arabs and Muslims.

And you have proved your hatred for Jews.

I think that's a little strong. Lets be honest here - Risto (and his previous incarnation - Hristo, whose account was previously deleted by VJ management) is a troll who's singular purpose of existence seems to be to post inflammatory content relating to Muslims and the Israel-Palestine debate.

Why the established member behind the Risto/Hristo accounts can't stand behind those comments under their own name, is anyone's guess. It does seem a little cowardly.

[GaryC 7]

Besides that you can't create a LAWFUL state inside someone elses country!

I can not agree more about this

Then why are you suggesting that Palestine created a state inside Jordan?

My previous post was regarding creation of palestinian state inside Israel

Exactly and you contradicted yourself. If Palestine can create a Lawful state in Jordan or any other Arab country then they should be able to create one in Israel! Anyway they don't want to "create" a state in Israel, they want it to be REINSTATED as they were there before the state of Israel was created!

Risto does good job copying and pasting. So it is not surprising to see contradiction in Risto's posts. These members have proven their hatred against Arabs and Muslims.

And you have proved your hatred for Jews.

I think that's a little strong. Lets be honest here - Risto (and his previous incarnation - Hristo, whose account was previously deleted by VJ management) is a troll who's singular purpose of existence seems to be to post inflammatory content relating to Muslims and the Israel-Palestine debate.

Why the established member behind the Risto/Hristo accounts can't stand behind those comments under their own name, is anyone's guess. It does seem a little cowardly.

That was a (weak I admit) attempt to show that a lot of people here are one sided about this issue. Some think that the Palestinians are the victim and Israel is the bad guy and visa-versa.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Besides that you can't create a LAWFUL state inside someone elses country!

I can not agree more about this

Then why are you suggesting that Palestine created a state inside Jordan?

My previous post was regarding creation of palestinian state inside Israel

Exactly and you contradicted yourself. If Palestine can create a Lawful state in Jordan or any other Arab country then they should be able to create one in Israel! Anyway they don't want to "create" a state in Israel, they want it to be REINSTATED as they were there before the state of Israel was created!

Risto does good job copying and pasting. So it is not surprising to see contradiction in Risto's posts. These members have proven their hatred against Arabs and Muslims.

And you have proved your hatred for Jews.

I think that's a little strong. Lets be honest here - Risto (and his previous incarnation - Hristo, whose account was previously deleted by VJ management) is a troll who's singular purpose of existence seems to be to post inflammatory content relating to Muslims and the Israel-Palestine debate.

Why the established member behind the Risto/Hristo accounts can't stand behind those comments under their own name, is anyone's guess. It does seem a little cowardly.

That was a (weak I admit) attempt to show that a lot of people here are one sided about this issue. Some think that the Palestinians are the victim and Israel is the bad guy and visa-versa.

Its hardly a clear-cut issue, regardless of how people want to make it so.

[simple_male 1]

Besides that you can't create a LAWFUL state inside someone elses country!

I can not agree more about this

Then why are you suggesting that Palestine created a state inside Jordan?

My previous post was regarding creation of palestinian state inside Israel

Exactly and you contradicted yourself. If Palestine can create a Lawful state in Jordan or any other Arab country then they should be able to create one in Israel! Anyway they don't want to "create" a state in Israel, they want it to be REINSTATED as they were there before the state of Israel was created!

Risto does good job copying and pasting. So it is not surprising to see contradiction in Risto's posts. These members have proven their hatred against Arabs and Muslims.

And you have proved your hatred for Jews.

I am sure, you have not read what I have replied so far. I am supporting Bush's Road map, Arab League 2002 Peace Plan, President Jimmy Carter's position for two state solution. Anyone who has read my replies can testify. I don't support occupation of Arab Land (President Bush also said during his Middle East trip that Israel must end the occupation of Arab land), settlement activities (Road Map, international law demand that it must stop), terrorism no matter who does it. Every world leader including President Bush, President Carter support two state solutions. So according to your logic President Carter, President Bush and other world leaders as well as anyone including me who support two state solutions have proven their hatred for Jews.

One thing I should add. I have Jewish friends who know my positions regarding this issue. They don't think I have hatred for them, rather we get along very well. Criticizing some policies of State of Israel does not mean one is criticizing Judaism like criticizing Saudi Govt does not mean criticizing Islam.

I also have the same feeling about Risto and came to know that his previous incarnation - Hristo and that account was previously deleted by VJ management. I echoed the same: "Why the established member behind the Risto/Hristo accounts can't stand behind those comments under their own name, is anyone's guess. It does seem a little cowardly."

I hope, VJ management will take a closer look at this Risto user ID.

Edited February 15, 2008 by simple_male

[mawilson 2,133]

Anyway they don't want to "create" a state in Israel, they want it to be REINSTATED as they were there before the state of Israel was created!

Yeah, and I want pie in the sky. Not gonna happen. Palestinians getting Jaffa or Haifa back is about as likely as Native Americans getting Manhattan back.

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

Anyway they don't want to "create" a state in Israel, they want it to be REINSTATED as they were there before the state of Israel was created!

Yeah, and I want pie in the sky. Not gonna happen. Palestinians getting Jaffa or Haifa back is about as likely as Native Americans getting Manhattan back.

[Risto 0]

Besides that you can't create a LAWFUL state inside someone elses country!

I can not agree more about this

Then why are you suggesting that Palestine created a state inside Jordan?

My previous post was regarding creation of palestinian state inside Israel

Exactly and you contradicted yourself. If Palestine can create a Lawful state in Jordan or any other Arab country then they should be able to create one in Israel! Anyway they don't want to "create" a state in Israel, they want it to be REINSTATED as they were there before the state of Israel was created!

No I don't contradict myself. I never wrote that palestinians have the right to create their own state.

They had this opportunity before and they failed.

[Ban Hammer 12,861]

Anyway they don't want to "create" a state in Israel, they want it to be REINSTATED as they were there before the state of Israel was created!

Yeah, and I want pie in the sky. Not gonna happen. Palestinians getting Jaffa or Haifa back is about as likely as Native Americans getting Manhattan back.

maybe that's not a bad idea.........and they can have joisey too

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Oh lawdy twenty-three pages ! I have a lot of catching up to do....

History is against you. The muslims didn't exactly purchase that land from the jews to begin with. It was kind of taken forcefully.

Do you only study the anti-Israeli portions of history?

What are the holiest mosques built on top of?

Yes, but it was still a holy site, and a noted holy site. Was it not? Was that unknown when the Dome was built? I think not.

You bring up the subject of history here (even though you get it a bit muddled up.) Of course, as has already been pointed out, it wasn’t the Muslims who took land “forcefully” from the Jews. But I have to ask -- what in the world are "anti-Israeli portions of history" ? This is an intriguing concept...

Anyway, you seem to be saying that history from 2000 years ago is relevant to the discussion. However, when it comes to Palestinians, suddenly you say history doesn't matter:

Awww, our land was taken 60 years ago. Most of the terrorists weren't even ALIVE then. Don't tell me they were kicked out of their homes.

It's a sad story, but the story is already written. The only thing to do now is help the palestinian people for the future, which the war does not do.

So then.... it's understandable if Jewish people would want to return to the place Jews were kicked out of 2000 years ago -- even those whose ancestors never set foot in the Holy Land -- but it's not understandable if Palestinian people would want to return to their own homes that they were kicked out of 60 and 40 years ago, within their own living memory, that they still even have the property deeds to ?

Fascinating.

At any rate, humans have developed the concept of "international law" to decide such matters. And it's already given us a solution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict -- UN Resolution 194 and 242:

UN Resolution 194 (1948 immediately after Arab-Israeli war)

Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible...

UN Resolution 242 (1967 immediately after Six-Day war):

Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles: (i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict; and (ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force; and 2. ( b ) For achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem; ( c ) For guaranteeing the territorial inviolability and political independence of every State in the area, through measures including the establishment of demilitarized zones...

This is Israel's obligation, but for 60 and 40 years respectively, it has refused to comply, instead expanding its occupation of Palestinian land, while denying its responsibility for the refugees and trying to shove the problem onto someone else's shoulders (either the Arab world, or the international community.)

The point I was making was the the Jews and Arabs have wronged each other on that same land for hundreds of years. You can always cherrypick what you wish to believe. This is seen most frequently with people with some form of connection to the crisis.

Honestly, I think the Israelis and Palestinians are both to blame, but the Israelis hold the key. That's the bottom line. It is Israel whether the Palestinians want to believe it or not. The only resolution that would be "fair" would be to nuke the whole damn place.

But Jews and Arabs were *not* "wronging each other on that same land for hundreds of years" -- this isn't true at all. The truth is: Palestinian Arabs and Jews (and Christians) have lived in relative peace in the Holy Land for most of the last 2000 years, until the Zionists came to push Arabs off the land so they could take it for themselves.

GaryC and Risto have posted ridiculous laundry lists (one of them cut and pasted from some BLOG called "Jewish Buffalo," for crying out loud) of "outrages" that allegedly occurred against Jewish people -- but all of these incidents were in other countries. How does this even pertain to the subject of Israel-Palestine -- much less justify what Israel has done and is still doing to Palestinians ?

Palestinian Arabs in the Holy Land have been the most peaceful neighbors to Jews of any people in the world -- right up until *you-know-who* arrived from Europe to forcibly shove Palestinians out of their land and take it for themselves.

As far as nuking the whole place to be "fair," well I think most people would find that attitude rather…well... “nutty”…

Continuing in my next post....

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

OK moving along....

The point I was making had NOTHING to do with Arabs v. Jews. What I was trying to point out was that this was Jewish land hundreds of years ago. It was arab land 60 years ago.

Guess what? None of that matters. It's Israel now.

You've got it all muddled up again. The Holy Land *wasn’t* "Jewish land hundreds of years ago.” In fact, it hadn't been "Jewish land" (meaning under Jewish rule) for almost two thousand years. Small groups of Jews remained, especially in the Galilee, and additional groups did return after the Muslim conquest. Many Christian communities also remained.

But from 70 AD until the 20th century, only a tiny number of Jews lived in the Holy Land, they did not rule it, and the vast majority of the Jewish people lived outside the Holy Land.

Except for a few short interruptions during the Crusades, the Holy Land had been in Muslim hands (and was predominantly Arabized) since 638 AD.

And the Palestinians living there today, although definitely Arabized in language and culture, are a people descended from every ethnic group that has ever lived in the area -- they can trace their heritage back thousands of years through wave after wave of Ottoman Turks, Kurdish, Arabs, Crusaders, Byzantines, Romans, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hebrews, etc.... all the way back to the Canaanites.

As far as "It's Israel now" and "none of it mattering now" -- well the West Bank and Gaza are certainly *NOT* Israel -- not under international law, not under U.S. foreign policy, and not even under Israeli policy (as they'd have to accept 4 and half million Palestinians as voting citizens.)

If it didn't matter, there wouldn't be a conflict (I think someone already said that -- Joyce ?)

I was just stating that as it is, Israel is Israel.. It's time for them all to get over it and live peacefully. Until then, they are both to blame.

The Palestinian Authority has recognized Israel's existence within the 1967 borders since the Oslo agreements of 1993 (which are also the borders the international community recognizes.) However, Israel has *never* recognized Palestine.

Israel continues to occupy, appropriate, colonize and annex Palestinian territory in the West Bank and Gaza, in violation of international law and UN resolutions. Israel continues to impede the movement of Palestinian people and commerce with hundreds of illegal checkpoints across the West Bank. Israel continues to build its Security Wall across thousands of acres of Palestinian land, separating people from their schools, hospitals, employers, even their own farmlands. Israel continues to illegally control of Palestine's borders, air space and sea coast, as well as divert and control scarce water resources.

This is the problem.

So I agree, it’s time for Israel to “get over it” and “live peacefully” -- to accept that it cannot continue to maintain this illegal occupation and keep oppressing 4 and a half million people.

The type of diplomacy that has worked for thousands of years would include taking all of the land and telling the Palestinians to leave or die.

I really don't know what you are talking about here. No one has been "taking all of the land" and telling the residents to "leave or die" -- there has been no ethnic cleansing in Palestine since the Romans kicked the Jews out, and as has been said, it was the *Muslims* who allowed them to return. There have been many, many different conquests of the area, but no one drove out the indigenous residents -- they remained in their homes and on their lands and went about their lives pretty much peacefully. At least until the Zionists came in the 20th century and started forcing them en-masse off their land.

This is the problem.

Since World War II, the nations of the world decided "never again." They agreed to end this type of lawlessness -- no more taking territory by force, no more ethnic cleansing. That's what the Geneva Convention was all about, and Israel is a signatory. No one is exempt. If Israel wanted to get away with colonial empire building, it was about 50 years too late.

The palestinians put themselves behind the 8-ball and they need to work hard to rid extremists and move toward peace. That said, Israel should make more of an effort to allow peaceful palestinians to assimilate, but that cannot be done until the violence stops and the entire region is mostly unified.

As already noted in this thread over and over, the Israelis have plenty of extremists among themselves that they need to get rid of -- starting with well-known members of their government.

This constant blaming of the Palestinians for the problem is to completely ignore history and the present reality. Israelis have been perpetrating the lion's share of the violence since 1948. The Palestinians waited for the international community to help them for 40 years, while Israel was allowed to continue to take more and more of their property. There WERE no terror attacks on Israelis until 1993 -- a full 45 years after the expulsions and massacres of 1948, and a full 25 years after Israeli launched its assault to take the West Bank and Gaza. All this time, Israelis continued to kill Palestinians, take their land -- even deny that they existed at all -- while the international community did nothing to stop it.

The terror you speak of is a reaction (yes -- desperate, drastic, whatever you want to call it) but it's a reaction to what Israel has done and keeps doing. Israel has done everything it can to keep the Palestinians from forming an effective government -- and this went on long before Hamas was elected.

Denied the invention of the international community, and denied the tools of "civilized warfare" -- your F-16s, your Merkava tanks, your Apache helicopters and all the sophisticated artillery that goes with it -- an occupied people will often use whatever they do have to fight their occupiers. Obviously, military force isn't working to stop terror -- because it's the response of the desperate which feel they have no other recourse. Increased military force, wielded by an occupying power that also an oppressor, merely creates more terror.

Personally, I think Israel understands all this quite well, and actually has no illusions that its increased aggressions will stop terror. I personally believe Israel's leaders are make a cold-blooded decision to continue with the game, as a vehicle to seize more territory. As an expansion strategy, it's worked rather well for them so far. However, it's put their people in greatly increased danger, mostly in the last 15 years as the Palestinian resistance has similarly increased its militarization.

Anyway, international law is clearly on the side of ending the occupation and making restitution or compensation to the victims. As long as Israel is permitted to continue to illegally annex Palestinian territory, and at the same time deny millions of people their basic human rights, it guarantees that the conflict will continue.

The way to peace is clear.