Hamas shut off the power to Palestine

[mawilson 2,133]

there is if he's not willing to give up his home and property, based on the principles he laid forth. that europeans in the us and predominantly european jews in palestine took land is not in dispute...it's the morality, rightness and fairness that's in dispute, and can such principles be right and just for one group of people if not another.

There's nothing moral, right or fair about it, but that's just the way it is. The world is unfair.

[Ban Hammer 12,861]

there is if he's not willing to give up his home and property, based on the principles he laid forth. that europeans in the us and predominantly european jews in palestine took land is not in dispute...it's the morality, rightness and fairness that's in dispute, and can such principles be right and just for one group of people if not another.

There's nothing moral, right or fair about it, but that's just the way it is. The world is unfair.

so's life.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Life is unfair?

That's so not fair!!!

[sandinista! 1,816]

That's a fair question - but I do have to ask why they make no mention of Christian repression is given. The fact is that while the Jews did not experience 'equality' in the muslim world during the middle-ages, there was much more repression going on in the Christian countries of Europe.

The Christian countries of Europe have evolved, while the Muslim world remained in the middle ages.

Yeah - that old chestnut again...

I don't disagree BTW - but that's not really the point I'm making. Some folks here don't seem to have a problem with using distortive interpretations of history to "prove" that muslims have been "savage" since the year dot, while completely ignoring the fact that as far as Jewish tolerance goes - the Christian nations during the middle ages were a lot more repressive.

Sorry - but it just isn't honest.

You don't even have to go that far. The Holocaust happened only 60 years ago, in a civilized,

democratic European nation with a great constitution.

Which pretty much illustrates why the Jews need their own homeland. There hasn't been a more oppressed people that ever lived. They need their own country to stop this constant oppression. Since that part of the mid-east is their ancestral homeland it only stands to reason that is where it should be. The Palestinians really don't have a long term claim to the land anyway. The just happened to be there when Israel was created.

how about you put your money where your mouth is, and give up your home and property here in the us so it can be given to the ancestors of the original inhabitants of that land. indigenous peoples in the us were horrifically oppressed and slaughtered with impunity for hundreds of years, and a good deal of them live in complete and abject poverty and despair today. it's THEIR homeland, and there's only been a united states since 1776. that's a mere blip in time compared to arab presence in the levant. if that's a reasonable policy for others, it should be equally reasonable and applicable to yourself.

I hope GaryC will answer this from his conscience. I asked him a similar question, "Would you agree, if someone wants to kick you out of your home, because they want to live there?"

Apples and oranges. The Jews have a right to that land. The people that was there were squatters. If someone just took up residence on my land I would have a perfect right to kick them out.

the entire world is made up of squatters. what is the difference here, specifically? what's to keep the ancestors of anglo-saxons in england today from reclaiming their ancestral home in saxony germany then? people living in saxony today are just squatters-anglo-saxons have a perfect right to kick them out now.

[mawilson 2,133]

So you are objecting to being kicked out from your own home and land, why the Palestinians cant not object? Isn't it double standard? It is not apples and oranges, it is apples vs apples. It is about whether one would agree to be kicked out from his/her own home and land.

Except they are not "being kicked out" anymore - it already happened, 60 years ago.

Whatever they think they want to go back to no longer exists.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

The only people who have a right to any land are the people who have the power to take it from you.

The deed to my home doesn't mean #######. See Kelo.

[sandinista! 1,816]

there is if he's not willing to give up his home and property, based on the principles he laid forth. that europeans in the us and predominantly european jews in palestine took land is not in dispute...it's the morality, rightness and fairness that's in dispute, and can such principles be right and just for one group of people if not another.

There's nothing moral, right or fair about it, but that's just the way it is. The world is unfair.

you've shattered me with this!

but he's not claiming that. he says it's right. he doesn't contend that it is unfair. you two are saying two different things.

[♥JP♥ 5]

See this is just point that I never agree with. I don't think the Jews have more of a right to Israel because they were there first. I'm christian, therefore at some point my great great great ancestors were Jewish. Does that mean I have rights too? I don't think millions of Jews immigrating from all over the world to live in Israel have any roots there. I mean to go all the way back to the beginning of time to claim rights to land is a rather lame argument. If you want to do that, every border in the world would be disputed.

Look I think that I and many here have stated that we don't support Hamas in anyway but can someone please tell me why supporting Palistinian people = supporting Hamas? Without sarcasm and without dismissing Arabs as human beings as many have done here. Many of the anti-Arab people here have yet to answer a question that has been posted without cutting and pasting ####### from other websites. I can log on to a website if I wish, but if you want to have a discussion then discuss don't post ####### from websites that no one cares about.

Israel has been concurred 12 times in the last 2000 years, and no one claim the country as thier own, untill the Arab who came from the surrounding countries called themself Palestinians, wants to be the 24th Arab state.

Really? No one? I think Israel has done a pretty good job of claiming it as their own.

Apples and oranges. The Jews have a right to that land. The people that was there were squatters. If someone just took up residence on my land I would have a perfect right to kick them out.

Its not apples and oranges. The Jews don't have rights to that land anymore than the Palestinians do.

So you are objecting to being kicked out from your own home and land, why the Palestinians cant not object? Isn't it double standard? It is not apples and oranges, it is apples vs apples. It is about whether one would agree to be kicked out from his/her own home and land.

Except they are not "being kicked out" anymore - it already happened, 60 years ago.

Whatever they think they want to go back to no longer exists.

So because it happened 60 years ago we need to forget about it? Should we forget about the Holocaust too? I don't think so. If you are so sure of your arguement here "Whatever they think they want to go back to no longer exists" then since in all of you arguments you claim the Jews got kicked so very long ago and the land was originally theirs, then they shouldnt be able to back to something that no longer existed.

[GaryC 7]

See this is just point that I never agree with. I don't think the Jews have more of a right to Israel because they were there first. I'm christian, therefore at some point my great great great ancestors were Jewish. Does that mean I have rights too? I don't think millions of Jews immigrating from all over the world to live in Israel have any roots there. I mean to go all the way back to the beginning of time to claim rights to land is a rather lame argument. If you want to do that, every border in the world would be disputed.

Look I think that I and many here have stated that we don't support Hamas in anyway but can someone please tell me why supporting Palistinian people = supporting Hamas? Without sarcasm and without dismissing Arabs as human beings as many have done here. Many of the anti-Arab people here have yet to answer a question that has been posted without cutting and pasting ####### from other websites. I can log on to a website if I wish, but if you want to have a discussion then discuss don't post ####### from websites that no one cares about.

Israel has been concurred 12 times in the last 2000 years, and no one claim the country as thier own, untill the Arab who came from the surrounding countries called themself Palestinians, wants to be the 24th Arab state.

Really? No one? I think Israel has done a pretty good job of claiming it as their own.

Apples and oranges. The Jews have a right to that land. The people that was there were squatters. If someone just took up residence on my land I would have a perfect right to kick them out.

Its not apples and oranges. The Jews don't have rights to that land anymore than the Palestinians do.

That is your opinion. I think the Jews have the right to that land. It appears that we disagree on that point.

[mawilson 2,133]

So because it happened 60 years ago we need to forget about it? Should we forget about the Holocaust too? I don't think so. If you are so sure of your arguement here "Whatever they think they want to go back to no longer exists" then since in all of you arguments you claim the Jews got kicked so very long ago and the land was originally theirs, then they shouldnt be able to back to something that no longer existed.

I personally don't believe they have any claim to the land because it was originally theirs -

it was Gary's argument, not mine. I'm only saying it's theirs now - fair or not.

Not all wrongs can be righted. It's time for the Palestinians to admit defeat and move on.

[GaryC 7]

there is if he's not willing to give up his home and property, based on the principles he laid forth. that europeans in the us and predominantly european jews in palestine took land is not in dispute...it's the morality, rightness and fairness that's in dispute, and can such principles be right and just for one group of people if not another.

There's nothing moral, right or fair about it, but that's just the way it is. The world is unfair.

you've shattered me with this!

but he's not claiming that. he says it's right. he doesn't contend that it is unfair. you two are saying two different things.

Fair has nothing to do with it. I agree with Mawlson. The reality is this: The Jews have the land, it is theirs and they have the right to protect it. If that means kicking out those that want to take it away then I say go for it.

Edited February 14, 2008 by GaryC

[♥JP♥ 5]

See this is just point that I never agree with. I don't think the Jews have more of a right to Israel because they were there first. I'm christian, therefore at some point my great great great ancestors were Jewish. Does that mean I have rights too? I don't think millions of Jews immigrating from all over the world to live in Israel have any roots there. I mean to go all the way back to the beginning of time to claim rights to land is a rather lame argument. If you want to do that, every border in the world would be disputed.

Look I think that I and many here have stated that we don't support Hamas in anyway but can someone please tell me why supporting Palistinian people = supporting Hamas? Without sarcasm and without dismissing Arabs as human beings as many have done here. Many of the anti-Arab people here have yet to answer a question that has been posted without cutting and pasting ####### from other websites. I can log on to a website if I wish, but if you want to have a discussion then discuss don't post ####### from websites that no one cares about.

Israel has been concurred 12 times in the last 2000 years, and no one claim the country as thier own, untill the Arab who came from the surrounding countries called themself Palestinians, wants to be the 24th Arab state.

Really? No one? I think Israel has done a pretty good job of claiming it as their own.

Apples and oranges. The Jews have a right to that land. The people that was there were squatters. If someone just took up residence on my land I would have a perfect right to kick them out.

Its not apples and oranges. The Jews don't have rights to that land anymore than the Palestinians do.

That is your opinion. I think the Jews have the right to that land. It appears that we disagree on that point.

That's cool, we can agree to disagree. However no one here has been able to prove why the Jews have more rights to that land. When presented with a question(s), everyone one doesnt their best to dodge it and go back to this same old statement.

So because it happened 60 years ago we need to forget about it? Should we forget about the Holocaust too? I don't think so. If you are so sure of your arguement here "Whatever they think they want to go back to no longer exists" then since in all of you arguments you claim the Jews got kicked so very long ago and the land was originally theirs, then they shouldnt be able to back to something that no longer existed.

I personally don't believe they have any claim to the land because it was originally theirs -

it was Gary's argument, not mine. I'm only saying it's theirs now - fair or not.

Not all wrongs can be righted. It's time for the Palestinians to admit defeat and move on.

Can't back up your arguement? Or does this theory just apply to everyone expect the Jews? You know your last statement just showed me that all you people care about is that people only forget the crimes that the Jews have commited againt Palistianians over the years, yet we can never ever forget the crimes commited against Jews. I don't think the Palestinians will ever admit defeat, because you are forgetting one simple point. They have nothing more to lose at this point.

I can definitly agree that I don't think they will accomplish any of their goals with suicide bombings or launching rockets however their cause is valid and they are desperate. Regardless of what superpower in the world you are, you can't just wake up one day and decide to wipe out a whole race of people. Because there are actually people in the world that won't stand for it. The other point is that Hamas, is only a small percentage of the Palistinian people and I don't agree they should all suffer because of their actions. Even if they were elected, they were elected out of desperation and the hope for a better life. We elected Bush and thats probebly the biggest crime against humanity!

Myself being an arab, I find it very hurtful how easily arab life is dismissed in this forum. I hear so many statements made by people that basically show one thing, you watch the media. The arabs you see on the media represent such a small percentage of the arab and muslim world. Arabs and muslims have advanced far more than most people think they have. There will always be idiots in every country, we have plenty of our own in the US but they don't represent the american people as a whole. Would you like it if everyone in the world assumed that all american wear white cloaks and burn crosses?

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

JP,

I believe the only thing being said here is that if the Arabs want the land, they should win it back. Whining about it doesn't help; in fact it only makes Arabs look weak.

[♥JP♥ 5]

JP,

I believe the only thing being said here is that if the Arabs want the land, they should win it back. Whining about it doesn't help; in fact it only makes Arabs look weak.

Who is whining? Secondly, I can't see where anyone has said they arabs should win the land back. On the contrary, everyone is saying they have no rights to the land and they should just give up.

[mawilson 2,133]

I can definitly agree that I don't think they will accomplish any of their goals with suicide bombings or launching rockets however their cause is valid and they are desperate. Regardless of what superpower in the world you are, you can't just wake up one day and decide to wipe out a whole race of people. Because there are actually people in the world that won't stand for it. The other point is that Hamas, is only a small percentage of the Palistinian people and I don't agree they should all suffer because of their actions. Even if they were elected, they were elected out of desperation and the hope for a better life. We elected Bush and thats probebly the biggest crime against humanity!

You're so sweet, JP.

Their cause is valid, but lobbing rockets at Israel is only going make things worse for them.

Their best bet is to give up their idealistic, starry-eyed claims to the land occupied by Israel,

keep whatever little they have, create a lawful state where terrorism holds no sway, and find

ways to peacefully co-exist with the Jewish state.