an open border by scott rohter

[Geist 0]

If the government wants to stop illegal immigration, they should make legal immigration easier. Currently it's impossible to get a visa if you don't have 12 years of education...doesn't exactly help the poor and unskilled workers who come here to work, does it. Doesn't help that those are the ones who benefit the most from immigrating and the ones that are most needed by American companies.

The kind of fence that the government wants to build won't help, either. It will be very flimsy and easily destroyed by anyone who really wants to get in.

If the government were really serious about wanting to stop illegal immigration, they'd screw the fence and just plant a mine field. But no, they'd rather engage in a bunch of political posturing that solves nothing.

[Ban Hammer 14,295]

If the government wants to stop illegal immigration, they should make legal immigration easier. Currently it's impossible to get a visa if you don't have 12 years of education...doesn't exactly help the poor and unskilled workers who come here to work, does it. Doesn't help that those are the ones who benefit the most from immigrating and the ones that are most needed by American companies.

The kind of fence that the government wants to build won't help, either. It will be very flimsy and easily destroyed by anyone who really wants to get in.

If the government were really serious about wanting to stop illegal immigration, they'd screw the fence and just plant a mine field. But no, they'd rather engage in a bunch of political posturing that solves nothing.

i'm certain making immigration easier won't be the solution - as depicted in the thread on vj about how a guy worked here for 11 years to make money and then was going home with it. i firmly believe that whether we make legal immigration harder or easier, things won't get better until we get serious about stopping them at the border (a fence helps, yes, but electronic monitoring backed up by personnel will do the trick). furthermore, a fence is an obstacle. just like in warfare, it serves to stop or channel the bad guys to where you want them to go. right into the waiting arms of the border patrol.......

and then follow up the fence with some real legislation that significantly penalizes employers who knowingly hire an illegal. and yes, the government needs to streamline the process for checking out someone.

also, don't we have enough poor and unskilled americans in america? why add more?

i've often thought the mine field would be a good idea, but for legal purposes a fence would need to enclose it, along with the usual plethora of signs.....

then if someone gets killed, it's their own stupidity and darwin award time.

Edited September 30, 2007 by charlesandnessa

[neenuh 0]

Are you sure border security is the answer to illegal immigration?

pehaps you should take the time to read on what the entire petition is all about so you will have a clear understanding on what it is

now if after reading you still have doubts about it and have better ideas on how to eradicate the problem, then don't sign the petition

you are in no way coerced to sign... did you think otherwise?

it's a petition by citizens for the citizens

it doesn't require payment, but your voice

at least some of us would like something done and are actually doing something about it

the FAQ page provides answers to the issues raised in the thread

Edited September 30, 2007 by neenuh

[Ban Hammer 14,295]

Are you sure border security is the answer to illegal immigration?

pehaps you should take the time to read on what the entire petition is all about so you will have a clear understanding on what it is

now if after reading you still have doubts about it and have better ideas on how to eradicate the problem, then don't sign the petition

you are in no way coerced to sign... did you think otherwise?

it's a petition by citizens for the citizens

it doesn't require payment, but your voice

at least some of us would like something done and are actually doing something about it

she's got a valid point. border security won't do a lot for those already here. border security is part of the solution though. and btw jvkn isn't a usc.

[Geist 0]

but electronic monitoring backed up by personnel will do the trick). furthermore, a fence is an obstacle. just like in warfare, it serves to stop or channel the bad guys to where you want them to go. right into the waiting arms of the border patrol.......

and then follow up the fence with some real legislation that significantly penalizes employers who knowingly hire an

Yes, let's increase the regulation on everyone based on the off chance that someone might be an illegal alien. Are you willing to so easily give up your rights because someone might not be in this country illegally? Is the benefit really worth the cost? What is the benefit exactly? What do we gain by making it so hard to immigrate legally? What do we gain by spending millions of dollars rounding up people and tossing them across the border? Smugness? How much utility do you get out being smug?

I get far more utility out of being free. I have no desire for a national ID card. I have no desire to being electronically monitored because someone, somewhere, might have snuck over a border.

lso, don't we have enough poor and unskilled americans in america? why add more?

Not as far as agriculture is concerned. There's a shortage of applepickers this year. Not as far as floor cleaners are concerned. I'm almost sure some of the crew that cleans floors for the company I work are illegal. But I don't mind because they are damned good workers. They work overnight, and work their asses off. If they spoke better English, I wouldn't mind firing some of the cashiers we have who seem to think their job involves standing their with their arms crossed and seeing how many times they can call out in one week and replacing them with real workers. Or corpses. Corpses would be "legal", but still more useful than some of the native-born Americans we employ.

Edited September 30, 2007 by Geist

[Ban Hammer 14,295]

but electronic monitoring backed up by personnel will do the trick). furthermore, a fence is an obstacle. just like in warfare, it serves to stop or channel the bad guys to where you want them to go. right into the waiting arms of the border patrol.......

and then follow up the fence with some real legislation that significantly penalizes employers who knowingly hire an

Yes, let's increase the regulation on everyone based on the off chance that someone might be an illegal alien. Are you willing to so easily give up your rights because someone might not be in this country illegally? Is the benefit really worth the cost? What is the benefit exactly? What do we gain by making it so hard to immigrate legally? What do we gain by spending millions of dollars rounding up people and tossing them across the border? Smugness? How much utility do you get out being smug?

I get far more utility out of being free. I have no desire for a national ID card. I have no desire to being electronically monitored because someone, somewhere, might have snuck over a border.

what rights am i giving up specifically? i certainly don't go trekking about in the deserts of arizona, where many of the illegals cross. and as for being checked at the border by customs personnel, that's been happening for years and at the airport too.

my previous post has not one whit to do with smugness nor a national id card, so where you wander off on a tangent about that is a mystery to me.

Not as far as agriculture is concerned. There's a shortage of applepickers this year. Not as far as floor cleaners are concerned. I'm almost sure some of the crew that cleans floors for the company I work are illegal. But I don't mind because they are damned good workers. They work overnight, and work their asses off. If they spoke better English, I wouldn't mind firing some of the cashiers we have who seem to think their job involves standing their with their arms crossed and seeing how many times they can call out in one week and replacing them with real workers. Or corpses. Corpses would be "legal", but still more useful than some of the native-born Americans we employ.

not a worry to me, i pick my own apples. got 3 trees out back, thank you very much.

[Geist 0]

i certainly don't go trekking about in the deserts of arizona, where many of the illegals cross.

So, because you do not, no one else should be able to either?

my previous post has not one whit to do with smugness nor a national id card, so where you wander off on a tangent about that is a mystery to me.

Because that's been the rational behind recent attempts to get a national ID card and set it up to where if you don't have one, you can't get a job. If the information in your national ID does not match up against a centralized database, no job for you. If some bureaucrat along the line transposed a few numbers, whoops, good luck fixing that. It's not a tangent, and is central to the concept of being free. If you want to determine among 300 million Americans who is legal and who is not, you're going to have to have a pretty fine sieve and dig deep in order to get them all out.

not a worry to me, i pick my own apples. got 3 trees out back, thank you very much.

Speaking of tangents, this is a pretty good one Sorry, I wasn't referring to YOUR personal apple trees, but ones all across the country that are grown in things called orchards by people called farmers. They don't have any to pick them. But it's okay, because apparently you don't wander off your own property very often, so don't worry yourself about the outside world. It obviously doesn't concern you.

[Ban Hammer 14,295]

i certainly don't go trekking about in the deserts of arizona, where many of the illegals cross.

So, because you do not, no one else should be able to either?

who says no one can't go trekking about in the deserts? i'm certain that crossing the national boundry into mexico isn't exactly treated with coffee and donuts by the federalies and i really doubt americans want to wander into mexico anyways.

my previous post has not one whit to do with smugness nor a national id card, so where you wander off on a tangent about that is a mystery to me.

Because that's been the rational behind recent attempts to get a national ID card and set it up to where if you don't have one, you can't get a job. If the information in your national ID does not match up against a centralized database, no job for you. If some bureaucrat along the line transposed a few numbers, whoops, good luck fixing that. It's not a tangent, and is central to the concept of being free. If you want to determine among 300 million Americans who is legal and who is not, you're going to have to have a pretty fine sieve and dig deep in order to get them all out.

while i was not even talking about a national id card, i don't necessarily support one anyways. so let's not get too deep into incompetent bureaucrats, mkay?

not a worry to me, i pick my own apples. got 3 trees out back, thank you very much.

Speaking of tangents, this is a pretty good one Sorry, I wasn't referring to YOUR personal apple trees, but ones all across the country that are grown in things called orchards by people called farmers. They don't have any to pick them. But it's okay, because apparently you don't wander off your own property very often, so don't worry yourself about the outside world. It obviously doesn't concern you.

not a tangent when you bring up apples to begin with. shall we talk oranges too? i'm quite aware of what apples and apple orchards are, but thanks for the lame sarcasm. furthermore, don't assume you know anything about if i "wander off my property" dearie, because i'm quite certain i've seen more of the world than you have

[Addie_Goodvibes 0]

Are you sure border security is the answer to illegal immigration?

Walmart

Mc Donalds

Terraso Steel

Feds: Company Hired Illegals to Keep Up With Military Contracts

Saludos,

Caro

Enforcement at the border will preven tthem from getting in, enforcement on the employer of Illega,l criminals will also keep them from being ab;le to work.

Also individual enforcement, as in those who hir eillegals tp mow thier lawn, move thier things, clean their toilets

and Shame on those who hire illegal Undocumented aliens to watch their children, how irrespoonsible is that Disgusting is what it is to hire an illegal undocumented alien

to take care of ones children. PArents who hire illegals as nannies should have their children taken from them & put in protective custody.

[In Gods Hands 0]

Just thought I'd share something my sis emailed 2 me today..

This is mind boggling........

Here is a REAL INTERVIEW with an illegal Mexican at a protest march in Texas. The reporter is trying to reason with an illegal Mexican named Juan.

This is good! Below is a good example of a discussion with a master of circular logic.

Don't be logical; don't respect the truth or your adversary, just say what you think and it makes a new case when the previous case gets too difficult to defend.

On the streets of downtown Houston, May 1, 2007.

Jim Moore reporting for a Houston TV station:

Jim: Juan, I see that you and thousands of other protesters are marching in the streets to demonstrate for your cause. Exactly what is your cause and what do you expect to accomplish by this protest?

Juan : We want our rights. We will show you how powerful we are. We will bring Houston to its knees!

Jim: What rights?

Juan: Our right to live here ... legally. Our right to get all the benefits you get.

Jim: When did you come to the United States?

Juan: Six years ago. I crossed over the border at night with seven other friends.

Jim: Why did you come?

Juan: For work. I can earn as much in a month as I could in a year in Mexico Besides, I get free health care, our Mexican children can go to school free, if I lose my job I will get welfare, and someday I will have the Social Security nothing like that in Mexico !

Jim: Did you feel badly about breaking our immigration laws when you came?

Juan: No! Why should I feel bad? I have a right to be here. I have a right to amnesty. I paid lots of money for my Social Security and Green Cards.

Jim: How did you acquire those documents?

Juan: From a guy in Dallas He charged me a lot of money too.

Jim: Did you know that those documents were forged?

Juan: It is of no matter. I have a right to be here and work.

Jim: What is the "right" you speak of?

Juan: The right of all aliens. It is found in your Constitution. Read it!

Jim: I have read it, but I do not remember it saying anything about rights for aliens.

Juan: It is in that part where it says that all men have alien rights, like the right to pursue happine ss. I wasn't happy in Mexico , so I came here.

Jim: I think you are referring to the Declaration of Independence and that document speaks to unalienable rights not alien rights.

Juan: Whatever.

Jim: Since you are demanding to become an American citizen, why then are you carrying a Mexican Flag?

Juan: Because I am Mexican.

Jim: But you said you want to be given amnesty ... to becom e a U.S. citizen.

Juan: No. This is not what we want. This is our country, a part of Mexico that you gringos stole from us. We want it returned to its rightful owner.

Jim: Juan, you are standing in Texas After winning the war with Mexico , Texas became a Republic, and later Texans voted to join the USA It was not stolen from Mexico.

Juan: That is a gringo lie. Texas was stolen. So were California, New Mexico and Arizona. It is just like all the other stuff you gringos steal, like oil and babies. You are a country of thieves.

Jim: Babies? You think we steal babies?

Juan: Sure. Like from Korea and Vietnam and China I see them all over the place. You let all these foreigners in, but try to keep us Mexicans out. How is this fair?

Jim: So, you really don't want to become an American citizen then.

Juan: I just want my rights! Everyone has a right to live, work, and speak their native language wherever and whenever they please. That's another thing we demand. All signs and official documents should be in Spanish. Teachers must teach in Spanish. Soon, more people here in Houston will speak Spanish than English. It is our right!

Jim: If I were to cross over the border into Mexico without proper documentation, what rights would I have there?

Juan: None. You would probably go to jail, but that's different.

Jim: How is it different? You said everyone has the right to live wherever they please.

Juan: You gringos are a bunch of land grabbing thieves. Now you want Mexico too? Mexico has its rights. You gringos have no rights in Mexico. Why would you want to go there anyway? There is no free medical service, schools, or welfare there for foreigners such as you. You cannot ev en own land in my country. Stay in the country of your birth.

Jim: I can see that there is no way that we can agree on this issue. Thank you for your comments.

Juan: Viva Mexico!

IF THIS TICKS YOU OFF . PASS IT ON!

[pedroh 21]

ahh..signing a petition... which organization are you from Neenuh? non profit? or they pay you for this>

[peejay 327]

ahh..signing a petition... which organization are you from Neenuh? non profit? or they pay you for this>

If these posts piss you off...why keep them alive by posting on them and keeping them on page 1?

It just bumps them back to the top again.

[pedroh 21]

na bro they don't piss me off.. just curious

i didn't know political organizations were interested so much in visa forums.. unless they wanna brainwash the new immigrants

Edited October 2, 2007 by pedroh

[almaty 19]

Just thought I'd share something my sis emailed 2 me today..

This is mind boggling........

Here is a REAL INTERVIEW with an illegal Mexican at a protest march in Texas. The reporter is trying to reason with an illegal Mexican named Juan.

This is good! Below is a good example of a discussion with a master of circular logic.

Don't be logical; don't respect the truth or your adversary, just say what you think and it makes a new case when the previous case gets too difficult to defend.

On the streets of downtown Houston, May 1, 2007.

Jim Moore reporting for a Houston TV station:

Jim: Juan, I see that you and thousands of other protesters are marching in the streets to demonstrate for your cause. Exactly what is your cause and what do you expect to accomplish by this protest?

Juan : We want our rights. We will show you how powerful we are. We will bring Houston to its knees!

Jim: What rights?

Juan: Our right to live here ... legally. Our right to get all the benefits you get.

Jim: When did you come to the United States?

Juan: Six years ago. I crossed over the border at night with seven other friends.

Jim: Why did you come?

Juan: For work. I can earn as much in a month as I could in a year in Mexico Besides, I get free health care, our Mexican children can go to school free, if I lose my job I will get welfare, and someday I will have the Social Security nothing like that in Mexico !

Jim: Did you feel badly about breaking our immigration laws when you came?

Juan: No! Why should I feel bad? I have a right to be here. I have a right to amnesty. I paid lots of money for my Social Security and Green Cards.

Jim: How did you acquire those documents?

Juan: From a guy in Dallas He charged me a lot of money too.

Jim: Did you know that those documents were forged?

Juan: It is of no matter. I have a right to be here and work.

Jim: What is the "right" you speak of?

Juan: The right of all aliens. It is found in your Constitution. Read it!

Jim: I have read it, but I do not remember it saying anything about rights for aliens.

Juan: It is in that part where it says that all men have alien rights, like the right to pursue happine ss. I wasn't happy in Mexico , so I came here.

Jim: I think you are referring to the Declaration of Independence and that document speaks to unalienable rights not alien rights.

Juan: Whatever.

Jim: Since you are demanding to become an American citizen, why then are you carrying a Mexican Flag?

Juan: Because I am Mexican.

Jim: But you said you want to be given amnesty ... to becom e a U.S. citizen.

Juan: No. This is not what we want. This is our country, a part of Mexico that you gringos stole from us. We want it returned to its rightful owner.

Jim: Juan, you are standing in Texas After winning the war with Mexico , Texas became a Republic, and later Texans voted to join the USA It was not stolen from Mexico.

Juan: That is a gringo lie. Texas was stolen. So were California, New Mexico and Arizona. It is just like all the other stuff you gringos steal, like oil and babies. You are a country of thieves.

Jim: Babies? You think we steal babies?

Juan: Sure. Like from Korea and Vietnam and China I see them all over the place. You let all these foreigners in, but try to keep us Mexicans out. How is this fair?

Jim: So, you really don't want to become an American citizen then.

Juan: I just want my rights! Everyone has a right to live, work, and speak their native language wherever and whenever they please. That's another thing we demand. All signs and official documents should be in Spanish. Teachers must teach in Spanish. Soon, more people here in Houston will speak Spanish than English. It is our right!

Jim: If I were to cross over the border into Mexico without proper documentation, what rights would I have there?

Juan: None. You would probably go to jail, but that's different.

Jim: How is it different? You said everyone has the right to live wherever they please.

Juan: You gringos are a bunch of land grabbing thieves. Now you want Mexico too? Mexico has its rights. You gringos have no rights in Mexico. Why would you want to go there anyway? There is no free medical service, schools, or welfare there for foreigners such as you. You cannot ev en own land in my country. Stay in the country of your birth.

Jim: I can see that there is no way that we can agree on this issue. Thank you for your comments.

Juan: Viva Mexico!

IF THIS TICKS YOU OFF . PASS IT ON!

lol..i use to this sh!t about blacks years ago in the south...interviews.."we want to kill whitey"...you need to crawl back under your rock..

[Ban Hammer 14,295]

na bro they don't piss me off.. just curious

i didn't know political organizations were interested so much in visa forums.. unless they wanna brainwash the new immigrants

that does seem to be going on.