Is it ethical to purchase an EV lithium battery powered vehicle?

[LIBrty4all 3,749]

16 hours ago, Mike E said:

I like waking up to vehicle that is is fully fueled because it was charging all night.  
 

Even assuming all that excess heat can be used to heat the cabin, ICE vehicles produce waste heat all year around  meaning they are less efficient except in central Alaska. Generally most of that excess heat from combustion and braking is wasted. 
 

Most stops at a fast charger for me are programmed to be 15 minutes.  I usually end up taking more because of the amount It time it takes to walk to / use the nearest toilet.  Higher range EVs are coming for those that need / want them. 
 

We are in the process of relocating and left the EV at in California for now and drove the ICE to Arizona.  Normally my wife drives iy but I’ve been driving it.  Things I realize I don’t miss  about  ICE driving;

 

* paying for energy that costs 3 to 10 times more per mile.  The wide gap because California charges ridiculous rates for electricity and yet those rates, even  when California still had $3 per gallon gas, were still lower per mile for an EV. Where we will be living in Arizona electricity  is a third of the cost (and yet still triple what NJ charges) and gas is $2 a gallon cheaper.  And yes of course the market is whacked when electricity prices are not as volatile as gasoline prices.  
 

* driving up to a pump to pay at the pump and find the payment system is broken. 
 

* driving up to a pump, pre pay or pre authorize and find that the pump doesn’t work.  
 

* I need, like a hole in the head, standing outside in 110 degree heat to pump my gas. In my ICE I wound just sitting in the car during an extended charge Ina road trip or not at all if I am charging at home.  
 

* Alas Arizona has its share of crazy people who approach motorists at filling stations like they do in California.  Just doesn’t happen at a Tesla super charger.  Btw why do the crazies always ask for change? Like anyone still has coins and bills after the government manufactured coin and bank note shortage. Why don’t these people have Venmo?

 

* paying for brake jobs.  Haven’t paid for one yet on our ICE but the brakes were squealing a few weeks ago.  And this reminded me of the $1500 fuel pump repair I had a several   years ago.  And that it took 4 years for the gas fume smell in the cabin to subside because we hardly drove the ICE.  Having the ICE sit outside for a month while the California house was sitting vacant seems to have done the trick.  

Some good points, and some weak points.  

But I would imagine that you paid $15-40,000 more for your EV than my ICE.  In to years, I can buy another brand new one, spend little more than you did, and have... a brand new one. Meanwhile, it will be time for you to replace that $15,000 battery, bringing us about even on TCO. But your EV will be 10 years old, mine brand new. (Give or take $3,000).

 

Also, EVs go thru more tires it seems.  And I have read that a brake job can be $2,000-5000 (something I can do for less than $100 on my ICE).

 

I currently pay about as much for gas in my truck in a year as I do for A/C in my abode.  I don't really think buying an EV will save me any money.

 

[Mike E 11,728]

My points are weak to you, but not to me.  
 

I paid for a luxury car and have throughly enjoyed it.  
 

If there was a bonded valet service that could fetch my ICE while I was asleep, and top off the gasoline, and re-park in my garage, I’d have to pay at least $50 a night for that. Thats over $18,000 a year.  So in years of ownership of an EV I’ve got my money back.  
 

People will argue the same about new car vs old car, first class vs economy air travel, lap top  computer vs desk top, computer,  hotel room with private pool vs common pool, computer with solid state memory vs spinning hard drive, etc.   One is cheaper and one is better.  
 

Meanwhile the average size of a home in this country went from 983 square feet in 1950 to 2657 in 2014 while the average household size declined.  Features in cars like an entertainment system, air conditioning, automatic transmission, power windows, power steering, that were heard of in 1950 or even 1970 weren’t in the majority of cars.  
 

Nobody “needs” that much living space, or a car that shifts itself (a concept EVs eliminate btw).  But they’ve decided they need it.  
 

Luxury is the leading edge of a norm.   

[Neonred 3,461]

40 minutes ago, Mike E said:

 

I paid for a luxury car and have throughly enjoyed it.  
 

 

Hope you're not talking about a Tesla.  

 

My wife has a Mercedes.  That's a luxury car.  

 

I've driven in several Teslas and they are not luxury cars.

 

Just expensive.

[Mike E 11,728]

13 minutes ago, Neonred said:

Hope you're not talking about a Tesla.  

 

My wife has a Mercedes.  That's a luxury car.  

 

I've driven in several Teslas and they are not luxury cars.

 

Just expensive.

I own  a Tesla S and an ICE Mercedes (E-350). 
 

The Tesla is far more luxurious to me. 
 

Hit 110 degrees last week and the DVD drive in the truck decided it could not read the map DVD. Luxury eh?

[Dashinka 23,402]

7 minutes ago, Mike E said:

I own  a Tesla S and an ICE Mercedes (E-350). 
 

The Tesla is far more luxurious to me. 
 

Hit 110 degrees last week and the DVD drive in the truck decided it could not read the map DVD. Luxury eh?

As with anything luxury is in the eye of the beholder.  I have driven a few Tesla's (S, X and 3), and they performed as expected, but I have never been enamored with Tesla's styling, but that is my taste (the Model 3 and Y reminds me of the styling of the Pontiac Aztek).  From an EV perspective, it is similar in the truck category, if I was to buy an EV truck, I would first look to the Ford F150 Lightning vs the Cybertruck, the Rivian, or the GMC Hummer EV, the Lightning looks like a truck and looks like it can do what a truck is expected to do such as hauling loads or towing.  That being said, I would not buy an EV truck for towing given the range reduction (60-70%) when towing (estimates are the Lightning will have about 90-100 miles of range while towing, it is interesting Ford does not tell that to their perspective customers). 

 

Regardless, when doing a CBA which is done more with mainstream buyers than with early adopters, comparable EVs/ICEs consistently show a $5-20k premium for EVs making the savings with electricity insignificant for many years.  People buy what they want and what they like, but in the end, these are simply just a vehicle to get from Point A to Point B.

[LIBrty4all 3,749]

Haven't sat in a Model S yet, but having been in all the others, my predisposition to the interior of the S is that it will be a over-priced sports car that isn't very luxurious.

Now a Lucid Air... THAT'S my idea of a luxury vehicle.  (still wouldn't buy one because the TCO would be even worse than a Tesla).

A lot of my issue is that as little as I drive, an EV won't really do much for me.  A person I know drives one 100-150 miles per day, and charges using solar at home, so he's "saving money".  Again, he paid $15-30,000 more for his Model X than he needed to, and I don't really know how much his solar array cost, but that cost has to be factored in as well.  (Though he did claim that his monthly electric bill went from $700 a month down to $150 a month, so the solar panels will eventually break even then start winning for him; dunno how long that till take though.)

[Neonred 3,461]

14 minutes ago, LIBrty4all said:

Haven't sat in a Model S yet, but having been in all the others, my predisposition to the interior of the S is that it will be a over-priced sports car that isn't very luxurious.

Now a Lucid Air... THAT'S my idea of a luxury vehicle.  (still wouldn't buy one because the TCO would be even worse than a Tesla).

A lot of my issue is that as little as I drive, an EV won't really do much for me.  A person I know drives one 100-150 miles per day, and charges using solar at home, so he's "saving money".  Again, he paid $15-30,000 more for his Model X than he needed to, and I don't really know how much his solar array cost, but that cost has to be factored in as well.  (Though he did claim that his monthly electric bill went from $700 a month down to $150 a month, so the solar panels will eventually break even then start winning for him; dunno how long that till take though.)

$700 a month?  Holy ****.  My wife is nuts about running the a/c and wants to constantly feel like it's Siberia in our large house here in FL, and even in the hottest months of summer we are barely at half that.  And we are running a pool filter and well.  

 

My greatest complaint with the Tesla, besides the price and charging hassle, is the lack of comfort.  The worst is the model 3.  Went with friends over to Miami beach and back in their model 3.  A trip of about 250 miles with one stop at a super charger.  That car had a rough and stiff horrible ride and the rear seats are the most uncomfortable I have ever been in.  Car was noisy on the highway as well.

[LIBrty4all 3,749]

10 minutes ago, Neonred said:

$700 a month?  Holy ****.  My wife is nuts about running the a/c and wants to constantly feel like it's Siberia in our large house here in FL, and even in the hottest months of summer we are barely at half that.  And we are running a pool filter and well.  

 

My greatest complaint with the Tesla, besides the price and charging hassle, is the lack of comfort.  The worst is the model 3.  Went with friends over to Miami beach and back in their model 3.  A trip of about 250 miles with one stop at a super charger.  That car had a rough and stiff horrible ride and the rear seats are the most uncomfortable I have ever been in.  Car was noisy on the highway as well.

Let's face it, EVs are currently only for people with a large excess of disposable money (mostly) & those who are willing to go into extended debt for bragging rights.  They are NOT economical, worth their price, nor "good for the environment".  

But if ya got it, spend it!!

[Neonred 3,461]

1 minute ago, LIBrty4all said:

But if ya got it, spend it!!

People spending money makes the US a great country.

[LIBrty4all 3,749]

11 minutes ago, Neonred said:

People spending money makes the US a great country.

Don't worry, Biden has a plan for THAT...
 

 

[Mike E 11,728]

20 hours ago, Neonred said:

Hope you're not talking about a Tesla.  

 

My wife has a Mercedes.  That's a luxury car.  

 

I've driven in several Teslas and they are not luxury cars.

 

Just expensive.

Can she turn on the A/C in her Mercedes from her smart phone 5 minutes before she leaves the super market to enter the 100 degree parking lot? On the rare days I experienced a heat wave in the SF area, I would turn on the A/C on my S while in the checkout line. But the Bay Area, is mostly cold all year round so I would turn on the best and seat warmers.  

 

That’s something I can’t do on my Mercedes.  
 

Still I’m sure her Mercedes is prettier inside than my Tesla.  
 

Once we get the Tesla into Arizona I doubt my wife will have much appetite to drive the Mercedes until the temps fall below 90.  
 

One thing her Mercedes’ probably does that neither my Mercedes nor Tesla does is shine lights on the ground when the doors open. Basically a bat signal with the Mercedes’ logo.  Not as high on my list as say summoning the car to pick me up when it is raining outside. 

[Neonred 3,461]

2 hours ago, Mike E said:

Can she turn on the A/C in her Mercedes from her smart phone 5 minutes before she leaves the super market to enter the 100 degree parking lot? On the rare days I experienced a heat wave in the SF area, I would turn on the A/C on my S while in the checkout line. But the Bay Area, is mostly cold all year round so I would turn on the best and seat warmers.  

 

That’s something I can’t do on my Mercedes.  
 

 

Our Lincoln does that.

[Dashinka 23,402]

8 hours ago, LIBrty4all said:

Haven't sat in a Model S yet, but having been in all the others, my predisposition to the interior of the S is that it will be a over-priced sports car that isn't very luxurious.

Now a Lucid Air... THAT'S my idea of a luxury vehicle.  (still wouldn't buy one because the TCO would be even worse than a Tesla).

A lot of my issue is that as little as I drive, an EV won't really do much for me.  A person I know drives one 100-150 miles per day, and charges using solar at home, so he's "saving money".  Again, he paid $15-30,000 more for his Model X than he needed to, and I don't really know how much his solar array cost, but that cost has to be factored in as well.  (Though he did claim that his monthly electric bill went from $700 a month down to $150 a month, so the solar panels will eventually break even then start winning for him; dunno how long that till take though.)

Keep in mind that solar panels do not last forever either.  As to the electric cost, I am curious if you know if the $700/month was because of the EV, or if it is the norm for your area?  I know here, the monthly bill in June/July/August is around $200 (we use gas for heat unless of course the Dems get their way).  Most EVphiles don't really get into how much their electric bill goes up after they buy an EV, they just say it is less than the cost of gas which I agree it usually is, but the savings alone does not allow for break even very quickly.

[Dashinka 23,402]

8 hours ago, Neonred said:

$700 a month?  Holy ****.  My wife is nuts about running the a/c and wants to constantly feel like it's Siberia in our large house here in FL, and even in the hottest months of summer we are barely at half that.  And we are running a pool filter and well.  

 

My greatest complaint with the Tesla, besides the price and charging hassle, is the lack of comfort.  The worst is the model 3.  Went with friends over to Miami beach and back in their model 3.  A trip of about 250 miles with one stop at a super charger.  That car had a rough and stiff horrible ride and the rear seats are the most uncomfortable I have ever been in.  Car was noisy on the highway as well.

The rear seats sound like the Chevy Malibu.  Horrible rear seat comfort for almost any adult.

[Dashinka 23,402]

3 hours ago, Mike E said:

Can she turn on the A/C in her Mercedes from her smart phone 5 minutes before she leaves the super market to enter the 100 degree parking lot? On the rare days I experienced a heat wave in the SF area, I would turn on the A/C on my S while in the checkout line. But the Bay Area, is mostly cold all year round so I would turn on the best and seat warmers.  

 

That’s something I can’t do on my Mercedes.  
 

Still I’m sure her Mercedes is prettier inside than my Tesla.  
 

Once we get the Tesla into Arizona I doubt my wife will have much appetite to drive the Mercedes until the temps fall below 90.  
 

One thing her Mercedes’ probably does that neither my Mercedes nor Tesla does is shine lights on the ground when the doors open. Basically a bat signal with the Mercedes’ logo.  Not as high on my list as say summoning the car to pick me up when it is raining outside. 

I can do this with my car or my wife's car and neither are Tesla's or Mercedes. I think the German car makers were a little late with the connected technology.