What is wrong with the Egyptian gov't.???!!!!!

[Sofiyya 1,687]

What is the exact different between the orfi contract and the nikah contract? My first visit to Egypt was basically a nightmare the first week. My husband, then fiance was not even allowed to come to my hotel room so we could talk. That left all our time together at coffee shops or walking around in the streets. It was nonsense! When we went to the Egyptian museum he was asked if I was his wife and as soon as he said "fiance" BAMM! I got to pay a fancy $50.00 and he got to pay appromatly $3.00 to get in the door! It was like this at the pyramids too. His family then suggested that I stay with them and he could stay there too so we could at least get to know one another more. He also BTW spoke with an Iman regarding this matter. When planning my second trip to Egypt, after already filing for the K-1 we were advised by his family among others that we should do the contract route so we would stay together while I was there. I was taken away at how differently things were as we could go anywhere together with no questions asked. I know these topics are always a hot discussion. We always felt in our hearts this piece of paper was our little marriage in Egypt and feel our marriage was in the eye of God. I speak to many on this forum that did the same thing however I'm sure none of them will step up and say the facts. How many women with fiances from Egypt say how they lived there with them for months then came back to file for the K-1? After being there 3 times I honestly don't know how this was done unless the contract came into play somewhere along the way. The contract does not say a couple HAS to have sexual relations does it? People can stay together without that, no? And what about when the fiance receives their visa and comes to meet their gal in the U.S. Most of them are staying together, correct? And there is no nikni involved? So why not have an honest contract? I'm sure I'm talking in circles at this point. I just wish the other gals on here that went through Egypt that I know had a contract (and many of you would be surprised at the number) would speak up because many times I feel that those of us that did have a contract have our husbands made out to look like the sex craved egyptian man that didn't want to go the whole route for the K-3.

t

So you went to Egypt with NO CLUE HOW THINGS WORK THERE? Your nightmare trip is your own fault, sorry to say.

Consider this. There are many things I never thought to tell my husband about the U.S. Likewise there were many things he didn't tell me When you are used to things being a certain way you normally don't even think of telling someone about the way this or that is done. So really it is nobodys fault. My husband also knows a man that worked in the embassy and he said they are very well aware of the contract marriages and they don't question them at all.

Sorry, doesn't fly. The US isn't Egypt. If he didn't tell you all this first, and you didn't ask what it would be like, at least asking other women, I can't imagine why you're surprised your trip was a nightmare.

And your husband is lying to you. The consulate/embassy very much care about orfi marriages. His friend isn't making the decisions, an American foreign service lifer is.

If your man refers to you as his wife as easily as you refer to him as your husband, he will be denied immediately. If you are married and filing K-1, he is making an illegal petition.

The consulate knew about our contract AND my husbands visa was approved and he is here with me now. I was also referring to the nikah and not the orfi

The consulate knew that you WEREN'T married, that's why he's here. If you weren't married, you didn't have a nikah; a nikah requires a true marriage.

Now I am wondering if there is a deeper underlying reason that the Egyptian government came down on this issue of getting permission to marry/proving availability/eligibility/whatever to marry for Americans trying to marry in Egypt.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, oh, I know . . . they are probably going to figure out a way to make it cost more for Americans to get married in Egypt. more baksheesh????

I'll bet one of the reasons for the hold up and clarification is because of all the foreign women being lured to Egypt to "marry" under urfi. It is a debated topic there and has caused problems for the government and for the visa process.

Edited April 22, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[doodlebug 3]

I'll bet one of the reasons for the hold up and clarification is because of all the foreign women being lured to Egypt to "marry" under urfi. It is a debated topic there and has caused problems for the government and for the visa process.

No that can't be it. Because of this law more urfis will probably occur actually since no one can get married at the MOJ anymore. This has to either be a by product of bad relations between the US and Egypt due to Mubarak's son or it's due to a lot of marriage-visa fraud.

I'd jump in to say Amerlu is right but then if it's a hard law now then I don't think any amount of bageesh is gonna make it happen. Heck they got a handful of bageesh when I got married and we had all of our I's dotted and our T's crossed!

[Nasturtium 500]

Thanks Peezy and Green-eyed Girl, that's what I thought. GEG-- my husband told his friend in front of me I "had rights" and seemed really pretty mad. He cannot afford to support me but that was between us, and he consistently tries as hard as he can on his side. I have no doubt when he is here he will uphold his end of the bargain-- he does it if I am there. I didn't really know what was being suggested, but I didn't like it because I wanted to be able to legally file and legally be married, and I could tell this wasn't a legal marriage.

Thanks again for your explanations Now back to the topic for everyone else

(steps back and runs!!!)

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Most people won't like to hear this, but I'm Arab, born Muslim and I won't lie to you about how this is viewed among Arabs as a social issue this because we are mostly women here and you deserve the truth. Most Arabs look down on or pity women who were "married" urfi/misyar. They are not so much respected because they got the short end of the stick in that they "married" as a slave woman or fornicator would marry - as a devalued woman with fewer rights to respect. They don't call those contracts "f--king papers" for nothing. While urfi/misyar may be commonly expected of peasents and tourists, the fact that it has grown among urban classes with means and options is not an indicator of its acceptance in society as a whole, but evidence of a social and economic breakdown.

I don't say any of what I have said to insult anyone. I only hope that my words enlighten those who have not done it so that they avoid urfi/misyar and take on a serious reexamination of their relationship with any man who would insist on it. Western woman, in general, do not seek the riches from a husband that many well-to-do Arab women are looking for when they marry. They do not make many demands, nor do they need their father's permission to marry. The excuses that MENA men use to suggest urfi are not applicable to a western woman; he need only to offer her a respectable mahr and promise to preserve and respect her rights. He should not be stealing her honor when there is not need to. There is nothing Islamic about that at any time, but particularly when there is no excuse for it.

Edited April 22, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[Sofiyya 1,687]

No that can't be it. Because of this law more urfis will probably occur actually since no one can get married at the MOJ anymore. This has to either be a by product of bad relations between the US and Egypt due to Mubarak's son or it's due to a lot of marriage-visa fraud.

The number of occurances of urfi "marriages" doesn't change the fact that they still must register them with the MOJ for them to be valid under the law.

[Nagishkaw 510]

Top officials recently had a meeting in Egypt just days before this law was announced. My guess is it just MAY be a tactic to push Olmert and the US to sign a peace agreement with Palestine and Israel . Just a hunch, nothing more.

Edited April 22, 2007 by Nagishkaw

[doodlebug 3]

No that can't be it. Because of this law more urfis will probably occur actually since no one can get married at the MOJ anymore. This has to either be a by product of bad relations between the US and Egypt due to Mubarak's son or it's due to a lot of marriage-visa fraud.

The number of occurances of urfi "marriages" doesn't change the fact that they still must register them with the MOJ for them to be valid under the law.

I thought the urfi marriage contract was just a piece of paper signed by a lawyer. The whole point of it is to avoid the MOJ, so the tourists are just going to a lawyer's office to get this paper and that's good enough for the police and the hotel keepers. Are you saying that once getting the urfi papers then they have to register that with the MOJ in order to get a hotel room? I think that some papers can be registered by the MOJ to be legal for visa purposes but that's not my point.

What I'm saying is that due to the lack of ability to go to the MOJ now, more peeps that want to shack up at a hotel will get the urfi since they don't have to do the MOJ step.

Top officials recently had a meeting in Egypt just days before this law was announced. My guess is it just MAY be a tactic to push Olmert and the US to sign a peace agreement with Palestine and Israel . Just a hunch, nothing more.

That's kind of what my husband and I were thinking but then what does the US care if they're citizens can't marry an egyptian in Egypt? They probably don't even want more Egyptians immigrating here in the first place so it would actually benefit them.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I thought the urfi marriage contract was just a piece of paper signed by a lawyer. The whole point of it is to avoid the MOJ, so the tourists are just going to a lawyer's office to get this paper and that's good enough for the police and the hotel keepers. Are you saying that once getting the urfi papers then they have to register that with the MOJ in order to get a hotel room? I think that some papers can be registered by the MOJ to be legal for visa purposes but that's not my point.

What I'm saying is that due to the lack of ability to go to the MOJ now, more peeps that want to shack up at a hotel will get the urfi since they don't have to do the MOJ step.

Top officials recently had a meeting in Egypt just days before this law was announced. My guess is it just MAY be a tactic to push Olmert and the US to sign a peace agreement with Palestine and Israel . Just a hunch, nothing more.

That's kind of what my husband and I were thinking but then what does the US care if they're citizens can't marry an egyptian in Egypt? They probably don't even want more Egyptians immigrating here in the first place so it would actually benefit them.

Those who don't intend to do the MOJ step will do urfi and get a room. Those who don't understand what urfi is, and do intend to do the MOJ step will do urfi and get a room. I doubt that the MOJ being off limits for now will deeply affect the amount of people who will do urfi and get a room.

I agree that the marriage issue is hardly a means of political persuasion.

[Ban Hammer 14,166]

my love will come to egypt in june to marry, what we should do if this problem didnt fixed till june?

If she is Muslim you can at least get married Islamically and then file for K-1 and when you can get to the US, if you're approved for a K-1, then you just get the civil marriage in the US.

If she isn't Muslim, then you just wait til you're approved for K-1 and go to the US to get married, or perhaps you could both go to another country around Egypt somewhere and get married.

just an afterthought........you did read this didn't you?

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...&page=terms

specifically:

By way of example, and not as a limitation, you agree that when using the Service, you will not:

Condone or instruct, either directly or indirectly, others on how to commit fraudulent or illegal immigration activities in any way, shape, manner or method.

[deadbird 2]

Now I am wondering if there is a deeper underlying reason that the Egyptian government came down on this issue of getting permission to marry/proving availability/eligibility/whatever to marry for Americans trying to marry in Egypt.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, oh, I know . . . they are probably going to figure out a way to make it cost more for Americans to get married in Egypt. more baksheesh????

Considering how much it costs for foreigners to do anything in Egypt, it wouldn't surprise me...

My fiance and I got some blood tests done while I was there and my tests cost 100 pounds more than his did altogether.

[cbd2cai 0]

Now I am wondering if there is a deeper underlying reason that the Egyptian government came down on this issue of getting permission to marry/proving availability/eligibility/whatever to marry for Americans trying to marry in Egypt.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, oh, I know . . . they are probably going to figure out a way to make it cost more for Americans to get married in Egypt. more baksheesh????

I'll bet one of the reasons for the hold up and clarification is because of all the foreign women being lured to Egypt to "marry" under urfi. It is a debated topic there and has caused problems for the government and for the visa process.

Actually, I was kinda being a bit flip when I made the comment about "more baksheesh" . . . I do have another idea that isn't just about women being lured to marry orfi . . . and, yes, I do know that is a big problem because I've talked to ppl about how much upheaval this is causing on a social level in some areas (Upper Egypt specifically). I think the egyptian govt might actually have started to be concerned about how it looks for so many of their men to be getting out of Egypt thru marriage. We all know that unemployeement and poverty drives a lot of the ppl to do things they wouldnt normally do.

Well, I am not a sociology expert . . . there is a lot for me to learn about Egypt and her problems (Mubarak being one of the problems). It will be interesting to see how all this gets settled.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I think the egyptian govt might actually have started to be concerned about how it looks for so many of their men to be getting out of Egypt thru marriage. We all know that unemployeement and poverty drives a lot of the ppl to do things they wouldnt normally do.

Socio-politically, Egypt is moving toward a closer identification with the Gulf states. They are making noises about prohibiting marriage between their male citizenry and western women based on centuries old fiqh rulings about interfaith marriage being mukruh (reprehensible) for Muslim men who live in the west. The KSA already requires permission from the crown to do so. The population of Arab nations is very young, and the drain of resources for women because of the flight of young men to the west is not only a social and economic threat, but a threat to Islam due to the corrupting influence western non-Muslim wives believed to have on Muslim men, and the secular hedonism of western life in general. Frankly, it is a concern to many Muslims I know, myself included. Still, Arab states need t take responsibility for their dilemma, something they don't have much practice doing, nor inclination to do.

[bigman 0]

really i can't understand why some of members here are challenge each others in some issues and let the basic problem , plz any one have helpfull idea it will be appricated in such sitiuation ,this is the point from all this Posts , NO?????

[Sofiyya 1,687]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17303203/site/newsweek/

MSNBC.com

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The Arab Marriage Crisis

In the Middle East, marriage is in deep crisis, for financial reasons.

By Navtej Singh Dhillon

Newsweek International

March 5, 2007 issue - Hizbullah may be calling protesters into the streets of Beirut. But Mazen Younes, a 26-year-old Lebanese marketing researcher, is more interested in getting married. Having a job that pays $2,000 a month—three times more than average—has a lot to do with it. That means, he says, "I may be able to marry before turning 30."

Contrast his situation with that of George Thabet, a 34-year-old Egyptian accountant who earns less than $300 a month—half of which goes to commuting costs. As an only son, he also has to support his aging parents. For him, matrimony is a frustratingly elusive dream.

Marriage, long the centerpiece of Middle Eastern life, is in crisis. The reason: a new generation of young men cannot afford to marry—a fact that's destined to exacerbate many of the region's social and political problems. Little more than a decade ago, 63 percent of Middle Eastern men married by their late 20s. Today the figure is just over 50 percent. Iran brings up the rear, at 38 percent, with the swathe of Maghreb between the Levant and Morocco only marginally better. Contrast that to Asia, which leads the nuptial race with 77 percent of men aged 25 to 29 being married, followed by 69 percent in Latin America and 66 percent in Africa.

The consequences of these trends are profound. In most Arab countries, a bachelor's life is devoid of economic and social opportunities. Marriage remains the path to adulthood, social status and legitimate sexual relationships. In contrast to Americans and Europeans, the majority of Arab men in their late 20s are not staying single by choice. They are forced into it by circumstances.

Marriage is so critical to Egyptians, for example, that they spend some $3.8 billion annually on it. (That's more than the $2 billion in U.S. economic aid the country receives each year.) Most of these costs are borne by the groom—approximately $6,000 for a wedding, according to reseachers Diane Singerman and Barbara Ibrahim at American University, or four and half times the average annual income. And while marriage costs have risen with inflation over the years, incomes have been largely stagnant since 1985. With youth unemployment exceeding 30 percent, growing numbers of young Middle Eastern men face serious financial obstacles to getting married, especially in early adulthood. Moroccan men nowadays marry at an average age of 32—seven years later than the previous generation.

Changing lifestyle expectations compound the problem. Few young people, these days, want to get married in traditional street tents. Dowries increasingly involve long lists of consumer goods. Newlyweds want homes of their own, instead of living with their parents. Western media dangles the good life before them, but most have no means of realizing it.

If the key to a stable Middle East is that children aren't worse off than their parents, then trouble is brewing. "The future in large part depends on the opportunities provided to young people, and at the moment we are nowhere close to solving this challenge," says Tarik Yousef, dean of the Dubai School of Government. Young men stranded between tradition and modernity tend toward volatility, radicalism and anger. They cannot afford to marry, yet religion and social custom bar sex outside marriage. They are expected to care for aging family members, yet can scarcely take care of themselves. Financial independence and marriage remain the mark of manhood and social standing, yet it is increasingly difficult to attain. In a part of the world where 60 percent of the population is under 25, this is a social time bomb.

The implications have not been lost on Middle East radicals. In Jordan, the Islamic Brotherhood offers free mass marriages and interest-free loans to young newlyweds. In Iran, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad built his popularity by offering grants to young people getting married. In Egypt, the religious establishment is waging a war of morality against couples who take matters into their own hands by opting for urfi—a common-law marriage that sidesteps the costs of standard marriage and serves as a cover for premarital sex. Meanwhile, growing numbers of young men are opting out—literally—by emigrating to Europe or other countries where they hope to find jobs and build nest eggs. Most say they plan to return home, one day. Many never do.

For the most part, U.S. and European policymakers have ignored this marriage gap. And yet, it is one of the decisive trends shaping the region. "Those youths in the streets of Beirut are not just fighting for political change," says Mazen Younes. "They are asking about their own future."

Dhillon is the Director of the Middle East Youth Initiative at the Wolfensohn Center for Development.

© 2007 Newsweek, Inc.

URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17303203/site/newsweek/

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© 2007 MSNBC.com

[Jenn! 918]

Young men stranded between tradition and modernity tend toward volatility, radicalism and anger.

Interesting article. The other day a friend of ours was over and we were talking about the VA Tech shooting, and he said that Cho, not unlike the suicide bombers of the world, just needed to get a girlfriend. I sort of dismissed the comment as being a joke, but after reading this article, I think he may be on to something.