What is wrong with the Egyptian gov't.???!!!!!

[Caladan 19]

Oh, that's definitely true, whether it's a big party in Thailand, or the Philipines, or Canada, wherever. Not something I'd advise, as the burden of proof is on the petitioner to prove eligibility for the benefit. ("It just looks like a big white wedding dress" ain't gonna fly.)

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Egypt does recognize orfi marriages IF they are sustained before a legal entity. In other words, to be legitimate, they, like MOJ marriages, must be registered and considered to be in compliance with Muslim law. Orfi marriages usually only come to light after there is a child born and the man wants to deny paternity, or there is some other dispute between the couple that requires legal intervention. There have been some famous cases regarding women who challenge their status and that of their children in court only to be denied because of the illegitimacy of their contracts, or because they cannot prove a contract ever existed.

Contract law in Islamic countries is nothing to play with. Simply because a Muslim enters into an orfi "marriage", that does not make their coupling ISLAMIC. It only means that the hotel keepers and others will not hassle you so much. This is especially true in areas where temporary couplings are common due to the high concentration of tourists and Arab Litharios.

Think of it this way, orfi or misyar is the Sunni form of muta' (temporary) marriage, except - and this is a big exception - Sunni Islam does not recognize temporary marriage, only Shia Islam does and provides for the protection of those who enter into them. Sunni Islam is not so accomodating. Orfi is a means for those who want to have sex and call themselves "married" when they are, in fact, not so married because their ability to enforce their contract under prevailing law is questionable.

Orfi, in the secular sense, is little more than the Muslim version of co-habitation without the benefit of a legal, registered marriage. That there are Sunnis entering into them proves, perhaps, two things. That there are lots of Muslim men who are either ignorant of their faith, or willing to take advantage of the women they profess to love.

For a Muslim to ignore the laws of a Muslim country only to return or have their SO return to a non-Muslim country where they meticulously follow the law to demonstrate and legitimize their relationship shows a lack of respect for Islamic law and the norms of the Muslim country, while showing a willingness to accept the laws of the non-Muslim country.

What can I say? Just because Egypt narrowly recognizes orfi doesn't mean they treat it as if you are legally and Islamically married. The two are not equivocal. Egypt puts you few a few hoops to even prove you are really married. So, if you are a non-Muslim and your SO allowed you to enter into a less than legitimate situation where your rights were not immediately available to you so that you could travel and sleep together with less hassle, you need to have a serious talk with him. If you are a Muslima and this happened to you, you need to take more seriously the laws of the ummah you are joining into. No married woman should have to file for a K1.

Edited April 22, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Caladan:

This is really different from (at least some forms of) Christianity, where the civil and sacramental aspects of the marriage really have nothing at all to do with each other. (Hence, I don't think it's 'Vain Americans bending rules' but 'Americans are used to a different set of rules and the separation of church and state.' Even if you're in a church that has a religious court (like Catholicism), the religious court has no civil power.) Even here, you'd probably be hard-pressed to find a priest that would witness the marriage of a couple in the U.S. if they were avoiding the legally binding part; he'd wonder what was up that they weren't legally married.

The vain Americans I was referring to are Muslim Americans, not non-Muslim Americans. They should be held to a higher standard of knowledge about their own faith. I don't honestly expect non-Muslims to know everything about how Muslims marry, so I hold the Muslim in the relationship responsible for their schooling of their partner. As you said, no one can just present themselves as married because they wish to be. There are procedures involved in establishing a union's legitimacy.

I think, frankly, that even a lot of American Muslim converts still view marriage in the same light as Christianity; that it is a sacrement rather than a legally binding contract, such as one enters into when purchasing a car. That is hard to take, because westerners do prefer to see marriage as a love match, a joining of souls before the eyes of God. Islam allows for that, but the nikah itself, articulates the rights and responsibilites, sexual, legal, financial, etc., of the marriage, similarly as if entering into a prenuptual agreement. That agreement, in whole or in part, can be voided if it does not conform to the prevailing law of the region/country of the land where you are being married. It is a legal entity that is not determined primarily by how you are treated when checking in at a MENA hotel. Both will get you in, but only one will keep you married when you return home.

Edited April 22, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[JElsafty 0]

What is the exact different between the orfi contract and the nikah contract? My first visit to Egypt was basically a nightmare the first week. My husband, then fiance was not even allowed to come to my hotel room so we could talk. That left all our time together at coffee shops or walking around in the streets. It was nonsense! When we went to the Egyptian museum he was asked if I was his wife and as soon as he said "fiance" BAMM! I got to pay a fancy $50.00 and he got to pay appromatly $3.00 to get in the door! It was like this at the pyramids too. His family then suggested that I stay with them and he could stay there too so we could at least get to know one another more. He also BTW spoke with an Iman regarding this matter. When planning my second trip to Egypt, after already filing for the K-1 we were advised by his family among others that we should do the contract route so we would stay together while I was there. I was taken away at how differently things were as we could go anywhere together with no questions asked. I know these topics are always a hot discussion. We always felt in our hearts this piece of paper was our little marriage in Egypt and feel our marriage was in the eye of God. I speak to many on this forum that did the same thing however I'm sure none of them will step up and say the facts. How many women with fiances from Egypt say how they lived there with them for months then came back to file for the K-1? After being there 3 times I honestly don't know how this was done unless the contract came into play somewhere along the way. The contract does not say a couple HAS to have sexual relations does it? People can stay together without that, no? And what about when the fiance receives their visa and comes to meet their gal in the U.S. Most of them are staying together, correct? And there is no nikni involved? So why not have an honest contract? I'm sure I'm talking in circles at this point. I just wish the other gals on here that went through Egypt that I know had a contract (and many of you would be surprised at the number) would speak up because many times I feel that those of us that did have a contract have our husbands made out to look like the sex craved egyptian man that didn't want to go the whole route for the K-3.

t

So you went to Egypt with NO CLUE HOW THINGS WORK THERE? Your nightmare trip is your own fault, sorry to say.

Consider this. There are many things I never thought to tell my husband about the U.S. Likewise there were many things he didn't tell me When you are used to things being a certain way you normally don't even think of telling someone about the way this or that is done. So really it is nobodys fault. My husband also knows a man that worked in the embassy and he said they are very well aware of the contract marriages and they don't question them at all.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

My husband also knows a man that worked in the embassy and he said they are very well aware of the contract marriages and they don't question them at all.

It's not true that they are not questioned. With all due respect, if you have a husband, why are you filing for a K1?

[peezey 0]

I think, frankly, that even a lot of American Muslim converts still view marriage in the same light as Christianity; that it is a sacrement rather than a legally binding contract, such as one enters into when purchasing a car.

This has been made abundantly clear in this forum.

[peezey 0]

What is the exact different between the orfi contract and the nikah contract? My first visit to Egypt was basically a nightmare the first week. My husband, then fiance was not even allowed to come to my hotel room so we could talk. That left all our time together at coffee shops or walking around in the streets. It was nonsense! When we went to the Egyptian museum he was asked if I was his wife and as soon as he said "fiance" BAMM! I got to pay a fancy $50.00 and he got to pay appromatly $3.00 to get in the door! It was like this at the pyramids too. His family then suggested that I stay with them and he could stay there too so we could at least get to know one another more. He also BTW spoke with an Iman regarding this matter. When planning my second trip to Egypt, after already filing for the K-1 we were advised by his family among others that we should do the contract route so we would stay together while I was there. I was taken away at how differently things were as we could go anywhere together with no questions asked. I know these topics are always a hot discussion. We always felt in our hearts this piece of paper was our little marriage in Egypt and feel our marriage was in the eye of God. I speak to many on this forum that did the same thing however I'm sure none of them will step up and say the facts. How many women with fiances from Egypt say how they lived there with them for months then came back to file for the K-1? After being there 3 times I honestly don't know how this was done unless the contract came into play somewhere along the way. The contract does not say a couple HAS to have sexual relations does it? People can stay together without that, no? And what about when the fiance receives their visa and comes to meet their gal in the U.S. Most of them are staying together, correct? And there is no nikni involved? So why not have an honest contract? I'm sure I'm talking in circles at this point. I just wish the other gals on here that went through Egypt that I know had a contract (and many of you would be surprised at the number) would speak up because many times I feel that those of us that did have a contract have our husbands made out to look like the sex craved egyptian man that didn't want to go the whole route for the K-3.

t

So you went to Egypt with NO CLUE HOW THINGS WORK THERE? Your nightmare trip is your own fault, sorry to say.

Consider this. There are many things I never thought to tell my husband about the U.S. Likewise there were many things he didn't tell me When you are used to things being a certain way you normally don't even think of telling someone about the way this or that is done. So really it is nobodys fault. My husband also knows a man that worked in the embassy and he said they are very well aware of the contract marriages and they don't question them at all.

Sorry, doesn't fly. The US isn't Egypt. If he didn't tell you all this first, and you didn't ask what it would be like, at least asking other women, I can't imagine why you're surprised your trip was a nightmare.

And your husband is lying to you. The consulate/embassy very much care about orfi marriages. His friend isn't making the decisions, an American foreign service lifer is.

If your man refers to you as his wife as easily as you refer to him as your husband, he will be denied immediately. If you are married and filing K-1, he is making an illegal petition.

Edited April 22, 2007 by peezey

[Nasturtium 500]

Ok, not stepping into the K1/marriage thing, I just had a small question about Orfi marriage.

When I went to get married to my husband, one of his friends said that if we couldn't get the contract done in the court, we should just declare it in front of two witnesses and that was "good enough." Now of course we did the court, and my husband got really ticked and said it was NOT good enough, he wanted a legal wedding and that he felt I "deserved" one. He was always really strict on that idea and wanted to get married as soon as possible and not stay engaged. I think if it was up to him we would have gotten married back in September instead of November. So was this "spoken" marriage an Orfi marriage being tossed out as an idea? I know my husband did not seem to like that idea at all (and neither did I!).

[peezey 0]

Ok, not stepping into the K1/marriage thing, I just had a small question about Orfi marriage.

When I went to get married to my husband, one of his friends said that if we couldn't get the contract done in the court, we should just declare it in front of two witnesses and that was "good enough." Now of course we did the court, and my husband got really ticked and said it was NOT good enough, he wanted a legal wedding and that he felt I "deserved" one. He was always really strict on that idea and wanted to get married as soon as possible and not stay engaged. I think if it was up to him we would have gotten married back in September instead of November. So was this "spoken" marriage an Orfi marriage being tossed out as an idea? I know my husband did not seem to like that idea at all (and neither did I!).

yes, basically, it would have been. Think about in the US, if you say, we're married, in front of 2 or 200, but someone authorized to sign the license isn't there and then you never file the license, or never had one at all, you wouldn't be legally married.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Ok, not stepping into the K1/marriage thing, I just had a small question about Orfi marriage.

When I went to get married to my husband, one of his friends said that if we couldn't get the contract done in the court, we should just declare it in front of two witnesses and that was "good enough." Now of course we did the court, and my husband got really ticked and said it was NOT good enough, he wanted a legal wedding and that he felt I "deserved" one. He was always really strict on that idea and wanted to get married as soon as possible and not stay engaged. I think if it was up to him we would have gotten married back in September instead of November. So was this "spoken" marriage an Orfi marriage being tossed out as an idea? I know my husband did not seem to like that idea at all (and neither did I!).

Yes, the suggestion was for an urfi marriage. Even when legalized, they require the wife to give up many of the rights Islam bestows in marriage, often while retaining the man's rights. They are also considered to be lesser marriages because they are most often reserved for second wives. marriage with women who are not chaste, used as an "out" for men who cannot afford to support their families, and for daliances by rich men who go overseas to have sex with young virgins that they then abandon. It is frankly a perversion of what is demanded of marriage by Allah, but the Gulf states and the most paternalistic and misogynistic Muslim countries, and Egypt is going that way, allow it to protect men's rights while requiring women to surrender theirs.

Your husband was right to preserve your value as his mate, Julianna. The suggestion was an insult.

Perhaps this link will help to explain further:

http://www.unhcr.org/home/RSDCOI/3ae6ab8910.html

Edited April 22, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[peezey 0]

orfi is usually a paper you buy on the street in Egypt.

there are also islamic marriages that may or may not have papers, and are or aren't registered with the state.

then there are misyar marriages which are specifically temporary with a time included in the agreement.

Orfi is as GEG explained, for un-savory reasons. An Islamic marriage can be registered or not (this is what GEG is referring to, I believe). Misyar are temporary and recognized in shi'a only.

What is the exact different between the orfi contract and the nikah contract?

An orfi doesn't have a nikah.

[deadbird 2]

What is the exact different between the orfi contract and the nikah contract? My first visit to Egypt was basically a nightmare the first week. My husband, then fiance was not even allowed to come to my hotel room so we could talk. That left all our time together at coffee shops or walking around in the streets. It was nonsense! When we went to the Egyptian museum he was asked if I was his wife and as soon as he said "fiance" BAMM! I got to pay a fancy $50.00 and he got to pay appromatly $3.00 to get in the door! It was like this at the pyramids too. His family then suggested that I stay with them and he could stay there too so we could at least get to know one another more. He also BTW spoke with an Iman regarding this matter. When planning my second trip to Egypt, after already filing for the K-1 we were advised by his family among others that we should do the contract route so we would stay together while I was there. I was taken away at how differently things were as we could go anywhere together with no questions asked. I know these topics are always a hot discussion. We always felt in our hearts this piece of paper was our little marriage in Egypt and feel our marriage was in the eye of God. I speak to many on this forum that did the same thing however I'm sure none of them will step up and say the facts. How many women with fiances from Egypt say how they lived there with them for months then came back to file for the K-1? After being there 3 times I honestly don't know how this was done unless the contract came into play somewhere along the way. The contract does not say a couple HAS to have sexual relations does it? People can stay together without that, no? And what about when the fiance receives their visa and comes to meet their gal in the U.S. Most of them are staying together, correct? And there is no nikni involved? So why not have an honest contract? I'm sure I'm talking in circles at this point. I just wish the other gals on here that went through Egypt that I know had a contract (and many of you would be surprised at the number) would speak up because many times I feel that those of us that did have a contract have our husbands made out to look like the sex craved egyptian man that didn't want to go the whole route for the K-3.

Actually when I stayed in Cairo I stayed with my fiance and his family and no one said a thing, so I could definitely see how I could have stayed there for months without anyone noticing. I just kept my mouth shut and let him do all the talking.

You're mistaken for how much you paid at the museum, it's 50 pounds for foreigners, not 50 dollars, and 2 pounds for Egyptians (same as the Pyramids). At the Pyramids one of the guards made some kind of snide remark about me and asked my fiance if I was "his" and he said, "Yeah, got a problem?" It shut the guard up real fast!

[JElsafty 0]

What is the exact different between the orfi contract and the nikah contract? My first visit to Egypt was basically a nightmare the first week. My husband, then fiance was not even allowed to come to my hotel room so we could talk. That left all our time together at coffee shops or walking around in the streets. It was nonsense! When we went to the Egyptian museum he was asked if I was his wife and as soon as he said "fiance" BAMM! I got to pay a fancy $50.00 and he got to pay appromatly $3.00 to get in the door! It was like this at the pyramids too. His family then suggested that I stay with them and he could stay there too so we could at least get to know one another more. He also BTW spoke with an Iman regarding this matter. When planning my second trip to Egypt, after already filing for the K-1 we were advised by his family among others that we should do the contract route so we would stay together while I was there. I was taken away at how differently things were as we could go anywhere together with no questions asked. I know these topics are always a hot discussion. We always felt in our hearts this piece of paper was our little marriage in Egypt and feel our marriage was in the eye of God. I speak to many on this forum that did the same thing however I'm sure none of them will step up and say the facts. How many women with fiances from Egypt say how they lived there with them for months then came back to file for the K-1? After being there 3 times I honestly don't know how this was done unless the contract came into play somewhere along the way. The contract does not say a couple HAS to have sexual relations does it? People can stay together without that, no? And what about when the fiance receives their visa and comes to meet their gal in the U.S. Most of them are staying together, correct? And there is no nikni involved? So why not have an honest contract? I'm sure I'm talking in circles at this point. I just wish the other gals on here that went through Egypt that I know had a contract (and many of you would be surprised at the number) would speak up because many times I feel that those of us that did have a contract have our husbands made out to look like the sex craved egyptian man that didn't want to go the whole route for the K-3.

t

So you went to Egypt with NO CLUE HOW THINGS WORK THERE? Your nightmare trip is your own fault, sorry to say.

Consider this. There are many things I never thought to tell my husband about the U.S. Likewise there were many things he didn't tell me When you are used to things being a certain way you normally don't even think of telling someone about the way this or that is done. So really it is nobodys fault. My husband also knows a man that worked in the embassy and he said they are very well aware of the contract marriages and they don't question them at all.

Sorry, doesn't fly. The US isn't Egypt. If he didn't tell you all this first, and you didn't ask what it would be like, at least asking other women, I can't imagine why you're surprised your trip was a nightmare.

And your husband is lying to you. The consulate/embassy very much care about orfi marriages. His friend isn't making the decisions, an American foreign service lifer is.

If your man refers to you as his wife as easily as you refer to him as your husband, he will be denied immediately. If you are married and filing K-1, he is making an illegal petition.

The consulate knew about our contract AND my husbands visa was approved and he is here with me now. I was also referring to the nikah and not the orfi

[cbd2cai 0]

Now I am wondering if there is a deeper underlying reason that the Egyptian government came down on this issue of getting permission to marry/proving availability/eligibility/whatever to marry for Americans trying to marry in Egypt.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, oh, I know . . . they are probably going to figure out a way to make it cost more for Americans to get married in Egypt. more baksheesh????

[Aymerlu 3]

What is the exact different between the orfi contract and the nikah contract? My first visit to Egypt was basically a nightmare the first week. My husband, then fiance was not even allowed to come to my hotel room so we could talk. That left all our time together at coffee shops or walking around in the streets. It was nonsense! When we went to the Egyptian museum he was asked if I was his wife and as soon as he said "fiance" BAMM! I got to pay a fancy $50.00 and he got to pay appromatly $3.00 to get in the door! It was like this at the pyramids too. His family then suggested that I stay with them and he could stay there too so we could at least get to know one another more. He also BTW spoke with an Iman regarding this matter. When planning my second trip to Egypt, after already filing for the K-1 we were advised by his family among others that we should do the contract route so we would stay together while I was there. I was taken away at how differently things were as we could go anywhere together with no questions asked. I know these topics are always a hot discussion. We always felt in our hearts this piece of paper was our little marriage in Egypt and feel our marriage was in the eye of God. I speak to many on this forum that did the same thing however I'm sure none of them will step up and say the facts. How many women with fiances from Egypt say how they lived there with them for months then came back to file for the K-1? After being there 3 times I honestly don't know how this was done unless the contract came into play somewhere along the way. The contract does not say a couple HAS to have sexual relations does it? People can stay together without that, no? And what about when the fiance receives their visa and comes to meet their gal in the U.S. Most of them are staying together, correct? And there is no nikni involved? So why not have an honest contract? I'm sure I'm talking in circles at this point. I just wish the other gals on here that went through Egypt that I know had a contract (and many of you would be surprised at the number) would speak up because many times I feel that those of us that did have a contract have our husbands made out to look like the sex craved egyptian man that didn't want to go the whole route for the K-3.

t

So you went to Egypt with NO CLUE HOW THINGS WORK THERE? Your nightmare trip is your own fault, sorry to say.

Consider this. There are many things I never thought to tell my husband about the U.S. Likewise there were many things he didn't tell me When you are used to things being a certain way you normally don't even think of telling someone about the way this or that is done. So really it is nobodys fault. My husband also knows a man that worked in the embassy and he said they are very well aware of the contract marriages and they don't question them at all.

Sorry, doesn't fly. The US isn't Egypt. If he didn't tell you all this first, and you didn't ask what it would be like, at least asking other women, I can't imagine why you're surprised your trip was a nightmare.

And your husband is lying to you. The consulate/embassy very much care about orfi marriages. His friend isn't making the decisions, an American foreign service lifer is.

If your man refers to you as his wife as easily as you refer to him as your husband, he will be denied immediately. If you are married and filing K-1, he is making an illegal petition.

The consulate knew about our contract AND my husbands visa was approved and he is here with me now. I was also referring to the nikah and not the orfi

Oh Jasmine......you opened a can of worms. Not another thread on this!!! Anywho......what's up with the egyptian government????