What is wrong with the Egyptian gov't.???!!!!!

[Ban Hammer 12,866]

Ah, the ' license to fornicate'. Would you be talking about Urfi , Charles?

There goes my plan B , too, if we are denied !

i guess plan C, checking with moody for a slightly used implement is not an option?

[bigman 0]

whats plan B and C and F lol, whats going on here

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

i am really appricate your advices , and yep no one of her parents is egyptian , but we love each other so much and dont want any thing to be problem for us ,since we face this problem about we cant marry in egypt if didnt fix till june we start think about the k1 visa to be able to marry in states , but we afraid we face any problem in k1 visa ,like this we cant ever marry lol, and what we cant understand is how they change the rules sudenlley after spending all this time in issueing affidafits for marriage from the embassy in egypt ,it looks strange though , so what we should do when she come to egypt to make our k1 visa easy when we send our application coz i know they have strict rules in proofing relationships between couples .

I understand that because when I first fell in love with the Algerian I am in love with I did not set out to "prove a relationship".. I didnt save our emails and phone logs.. Now I am doing it.. so I can relate to all of this. I think you just have to plan on MAKTOOB as they say in Islam.. If its MAKTOOB, you will be together.. Save all your chats, tell her everything about your life and make sure you know everything about her.. everything

[bigman 0]

thanks for advicing , but do u think k1 visa is guranteed or maybe we got denied , we will stay together here in egypt for 10 days and we know each other for 4 months now , do u think its good sitiuation for applying for k1 visa??

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Since when is an Islamic marriage not a proper marriage?

If someone is Muslim and has an Islamic ceremony, there are no rules being made up. As far as I know, all Muslims can have an Islamic ceremony and why should one Muslim be any different than another in that respect?

If someone wants to make that marriage legitimate in another country, then they will follow some rules about having the contract registered or going through whatever process the other country requires, but before Allah, an Islamic ceremony is completely acceptable.

A proper Islamic marriage gives the parties a legitimate way to protect and enforce their rights and responsibilities under their nikah. Any marriage that is not considered valid by any body recognized as having the means to back up any claims does not do that, and so, doesn't provide the protections and enforcements required by Islam. It is the ability to be recognized as a legitimate and halal couple before the body that can enforce your contract that makes an Islamic ceremony acceptable to Allah; merely calling it "Islamic" or having an imam officiate doesn't make it acceptable to Allah.

Since Islam does not require the participation of an imam to marry, the presence of an imam does not validate a marriage. Because marriage in Islam is a legal contract (nikah) that, in effect, legitimizes sexual intimacy between the couple before society and God (the term "nikah" means "sexual intercourse"), the ability to approach an authorized body in that society that can adjudicate, negotiate, and uphold a divorce or any other provision of the contract is necessary to give the union authenticity. An imam alone cannot do that. He rarely has that authority, and usually, when he does, it is usually under circumstances where tribal law trumps Islamic law.

There are imams who are given the authority to conduct valid nikahs in certain Muslim countries, and there are imams who have not been given that authority, but will do so anyway. Yet. even in a "urfi" or "misyar" marriage, which also, btw, does not require the presence of an imam, the parties must be able to prove to a governing body that there was a legitimate contract that meets the requirements for validity set down by the ulema in said country, based on their interpretation of the Quran.

I hope that no one would not enter into any other contract, for example, the sale of their home, without the comfort of knowing their contract is legitimate and enforcable. A nikah contract is a legal instrument that, when presented to a sharia-based court, must conform to the provisions, limitations, and allowances recognized by the governing ulema in the Muslim country you marry because it will be judged as proficient or deficient. Thus, the content, legitimacy, and enforcablity of any nikah is a very serious issue, to be taken seriously, and not one left to one's vain desires.

If one only wishes to lay with their SO before their union can made valid, one should do so without involving Allah or Islam as a cover for their acts. If one truly wishes their union to be acceptable to Allah. one needs to follow the rules of the Muslim country they are in. It is no coincidence, as someone said earlier, that it is primarily non-Muslim women who indulge in this practice of fake "Islamic" marriage, for they are more likely to be totally ignorant of their rights and easily mislead. Muslims who do so have more to explain, for there is little reason why they should not be more aware of what they are doing to themselves and to their partners, their need to follow sharia as understood in the country they are in, and the requirement to protect the rights of themselves, their partner and any issue that may follow, under a valid nikah contract. To do less is unIslamic.

Americans have a singular impulse for instant gratification and bending the rules to suit themselves, but the Muslim brothers and sisters among us must always remember that it is Allah we seek to please, and it is by our acts that we set the example of His Will. Muslims are allowed to marry among CHASTE ahl al kitab and Muslims, and we should seek to protect the honor of our loved one before God, as we do ourselves. The legitimacy of a Muslim marriage, a Muslim nikah, is determined by the ulema in the country they are marrying in, and the sharia as they interpret it, not by their own wish to indulge their need to be intimate with their loved one. Whether we are Muslim, Christian or Jewish, God has given the faithful the desire to remain true to Him, and to be strong and patient in the face of adversity. While we can rationalize in our minds whatever we want, the reality is in our acts, not in our wishes.

Edited April 22, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[deadbird 2]

thanks for advicing , but do u think k1 visa is guranteed or maybe we got denied , we will stay together here in egypt for 10 days and we know each other for 4 months now , do u think its good sitiuation for applying for k1 visa??

You can't file for a K-1 until you meet in person, so maybe the governments will get their acts straight by the time June comes around (not likely). You can't really make a decision until then...I know it sucks to wait it out but maybe it will work in your favor! Good luck.

My fiance and I filed for K-1. Prior to my visit in March when we got engaged, we hadn't seen each other in 5 1/2 years so we're worried too. Each case is different If the K-1 doesn't work for us, we have no idea what we're going to do if we can't marry there either.

[cbd2cai 0]

Since when is an Islamic marriage not a proper marriage?

from what i understand, there is a version that is nothing more than a "sex paper" marriage. geg can explain it in greater detail. in short, not all marriages are equal.

That's what I was talking about when I mentioned the "orfi" marriage (these are NOT islamic marriages). There is a big "business" in these papers in egypt . . .it is a contract drawn up by a lawyer to satisfy requirements so a couple can "co-habit" in Egypt (keeps the police from hauling someone off to jail i.e. the egyptian in the case of egyptian and westerners), but it doesn't mean you have a legal marriage with rights guaranteed under that marriage. I think there is one paper that can be registered (trying to understand all this can make your head want to explode, lol) but I think most ppl don't do that as they just want to tear them up when they decide to "divorce". FYI, these "marriages" are big in tourist areas like Luxor and Sharm el Sheik. I've heard about a guy having more than one of these with the various "wives" flying in at different times of the year to spend time with their "husband".

FYI, my husband only would marry at the MOJ and said it is bad to get this type of marriage. When I stayed in a hotel in Cairo, we had to present the marriage contract from the MOJ to the hotel manager (got a discount on the hotel too since they then gave me egyptian rates) AND when I stayed in a flat in Cairo, one of the landlords was very picky about getting a copy of that contract (he explained a lot about in trying to run a legitimate rental business, that the police require these things, etc, and he didn't want to get in trouble) . . . another one didn't ask.

[noura 0]

thanks for advicing , but do u think k1 visa is guranteed or maybe we got denied , we will stay together here in egypt for 10 days and we know each other for 4 months now , do u think its good sitiuation for applying for k1 visa??

*NO* visa is *guaranteed* and a K3 can get denied as easily as a K1. You must do what is right for you, there are pros & cons to each visa application. Good luck!

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

thanks for advicing , but do u think k1 visa is guranteed or maybe we got denied , we will stay together here in egypt for 10 days and we know each other for 4 months now , do u think its good sitiuation for applying for k1 visa??

*NO* visa is *guaranteed* and a K3 can get denied as easily as a K1. You must do what is right for you, there are pros & cons to each visa application. Good luck!

from the sounds of it there are a whole lot of k3 s getting denied all over.... marriage is no silver bullet

[peezey 0]

Since when is an Islamic marriage not a proper marriage?

If someone is Muslim and has an Islamic ceremony, there are no rules being made up. As far as I know, all Muslims can have an Islamic ceremony and why should one Muslim be any different than another in that respect?

If someone wants to make that marriage legitimate in another country, then they will follow some rules about having the contract registered or going through whatever process the other country requires, but before Allah, an Islamic ceremony is completely acceptable.

But why on earth would you suggest anyone do anything called a "marriage" ("islamic" or otherwise) and then file K1? We've seen denials based on engagement parties that looked to elaborate to COs who really thought they were weddings. I honestly can't believe you'd sugggest this.

Edited April 22, 2007 by peezey

[JElsafty 0]

What is the exact different between the orfi contract and the nikah contract? My first visit to Egypt was basically a nightmare the first week. My husband, then fiance was not even allowed to come to my hotel room so we could talk. That left all our time together at coffee shops or walking around in the streets. It was nonsense! When we went to the Egyptian museum he was asked if I was his wife and as soon as he said "fiance" BAMM! I got to pay a fancy $50.00 and he got to pay appromatly $3.00 to get in the door! It was like this at the pyramids too. His family then suggested that I stay with them and he could stay there too so we could at least get to know one another more. He also BTW spoke with an Iman regarding this matter. When planning my second trip to Egypt, after already filing for the K-1 we were advised by his family among others that we should do the contract route so we would stay together while I was there. I was taken away at how differently things were as we could go anywhere together with no questions asked. I know these topics are always a hot discussion. We always felt in our hearts this piece of paper was our little marriage in Egypt and feel our marriage was in the eye of God. I speak to many on this forum that did the same thing however I'm sure none of them will step up and say the facts. How many women with fiances from Egypt say how they lived there with them for months then came back to file for the K-1? After being there 3 times I honestly don't know how this was done unless the contract came into play somewhere along the way. The contract does not say a couple HAS to have sexual relations does it? People can stay together without that, no? And what about when the fiance receives their visa and comes to meet their gal in the U.S. Most of them are staying together, correct? And there is no nikni involved? So why not have an honest contract? I'm sure I'm talking in circles at this point. I just wish the other gals on here that went through Egypt that I know had a contract (and many of you would be surprised at the number) would speak up because many times I feel that those of us that did have a contract have our husbands made out to look like the sex craved egyptian man that didn't want to go the whole route for the K-3.

Edited April 22, 2007 by Zoloft Needed

[Caladan 19]

The biggest difference seems to be that the first isn't legally binding; if it were, you wouldn't be able to apply for the K-1. And if G-EG's right (and there's no particular reason why she shouldn't be), the whole point of marriage in Islam is to create a legally binding contract. (I.e., if you're going to have sex with this woman, we're going to make sure the power of the local government means you do right by her.)

This is really different from (at least some forms of) Christianity, where the civil and sacramental aspects of the marriage really have nothing at all to do with each other. (Hence, I don't think it's 'Vain Americans bending rules' but 'Americans are used to a different set of rules and the separation of church and state.' Even if you're in a church that has a religious court (like Catholicism), the religious court has no civil power.) Even here, you'd probably be hard-pressed to find a priest that would witness the marriage of a couple in the U.S. if they were avoiding the legally binding part; he'd wonder what was up that they weren't legally married.

But in any case, with any marriage-based visa, you'd have to prove the legitimacy of the relationship, and marriage doesn't do that automatically.

[peezey 0]

What is the exact different between the orfi contract and the nikah contract? My first visit to Egypt was basically a nightmare the first week. My husband, then fiance was not even allowed to come to my hotel room so we could talk. That left all our time together at coffee shops or walking around in the streets. It was nonsense! When we went to the Egyptian museum he was asked if I was his wife and as soon as he said "fiance" BAMM! I got to pay a fancy $50.00 and he got to pay appromatly $3.00 to get in the door! It was like this at the pyramids too. His family then suggested that I stay with them and he could stay there too so we could at least get to know one another more. He also BTW spoke with an Iman regarding this matter. When planning my second trip to Egypt, after already filing for the K-1 we were advised by his family among others that we should do the contract route so we would stay together while I was there. I was taken away at how differently things were as we could go anywhere together with no questions asked. I know these topics are always a hot discussion. We always felt in our hearts this piece of paper was our little marriage in Egypt and feel our marriage was in the eye of God. I speak to many on this forum that did the same thing however I'm sure none of them will step up and say the facts. How many women with fiances from Egypt say how they lived there with them for months then came back to file for the K-1? After being there 3 times I honestly don't know how this was done unless the contract came into play somewhere along the way. The contract does not say a couple HAS to have sexual relations does it? People can stay together without that, no? And what about when the fiance receives their visa and comes to meet their gal in the U.S. Most of them are staying together, correct? And there is no nikni involved? So why not have an honest contract? I'm sure I'm talking in circles at this point. I just wish the other gals on here that went through Egypt that I know had a contract (and many of you would be surprised at the number) would speak up because many times I feel that those of us that did have a contract have our husbands made out to look like the sex craved egyptian man that didn't want to go the whole route for the K-3.

t

So you went to Egypt with NO CLUE HOW THINGS WORK THERE? Your nightmare trip is your own fault, sorry to say.

[peezey 0]

The biggest difference seems to be that the first isn't legally binding; if it were, you wouldn't be able to apply for the K-1.

Try to tell UCSIS & the CO you only got "fake" married in Cairo so you're still just gonna do the K-1.

Edited April 22, 2007 by peezey

[peezey 0]

GEG was explaining an Islamic marriage. This doesn't have to do with the fact that if the CO gets wind that you were married in any way, orfi or otherwise, your K1 will be denied immediately. It's happened.