'Enough is enough': Theresa May says there's been 'far too much tolerance' of 'evil' Islamist extremism in the UK

[Jacque67 7,328]

5 minutes ago, spookyturtle said:

And a nice rifle.

Yeah, looking forward to going hunting with NB one day

[Mr&Mrs G. 903]

Just now, Jacque67 said:

Yeah, looking forward to going hunting with NB one day

Hunting each other? 

[spookyturtle 9,466]

3 minutes ago, Leon & Mylen said:

I see, thanks.  So you're saying that armed citizens and trigger happy police have stopped potential terrorists from carrying out their plans here?

I said that may be a factor. Fortunately I'm in MA and we have some diligent citizens and good police departments. Ask the Marathon Bomber. 

[Jacque67 7,328]

2 minutes ago, Mr&Mrs G. said:

Hunting each other? 

Yeah, open invitation ...keep your mouth open, honey

[yuna628 9,873]

47 minutes ago, ccneat said:

The article did not say Saudis attacked last night.  There are important questions about the funding of radical teachers in the west by Saudi Citizens. 

Follow the money from the top all the way down to the community 'leaders' supposedly working in partnership with the government and things start making sense. Maybe even some (not all) of the Imams.

 

Quote

Top Muslim lawyer brands authorities 'lazy' in their efforts to tackle extremism

One of the country's most prominent Muslim lawyers has branded the authorities "lazy" in their efforts to reach out to minority community leaders and tackle extremism.

Former chief crown prosecutor Nazir Afzal said a number of prominent figures in Muslim communities were in their roles "for all sorts of wrong reasons".

Mr Afzal told BBC Radio 5's Pienaar's Politics that the Government must do more to reach young Muslim women in order to connect with these groups.

It comes as Saturday's attack - which took place during the Islamic holy month of Ramadan - was condemned by Tory former cabinet minister Baroness Warsi and the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB).

Prime Minister Theresa May has also pledged to stamp out tolerance of extremism and put an end to "separated, segregated communities" in the wake of the atrocity.

Mr Afzal, who prosecuted the Rochdale sex-grooming gang, told the BBC he had spent 25 years meeting "so-called community leaders who represent no one but themselves".

The majority of British Muslims were female, under 25 and from low income backgrounds, Mr Afzal said, yet most community leaders were middle-class men aged over 50.

He also questioned why minority communities were thought to have community leaders when white communities did not.

"We've got to turn away those people who are there for all sorts of wrong reasons - ego, kudos, just because they're there in the right place," Mr Afzal said.

"I think I used the word lazy yesterday, I think the state and the authorities are lazy here - they go to the usual suspects.

"They should be talking to young people, young women invariably, in order to get them to understand and learn from them what it is that needs to be done, rather than simply impose it."

 

From the guardian breaking atm: Here we go again.

Quote

Suspected attacker ejected from mosque - Barking resident

Matthew Taylor

Salahudee Jayabdeen, 40, said one of the suspected attackers had been forcibly removed from a local mosque called Jabir Bin Zyad after questioning the Imam during a service.

He said he had seen the man in the area for the past year.

It was about two months ago and he started questioning what the imam was saying. I can’t remember exactly what it was about but was asked to leave. He didn’t want to and was forcibly taken out.

 

36 minutes ago, Leon & Mylen said:

Does anyone have a theory as to why the U.K. Is seeing more instances of this and we are not?  

I would say for a few reasons: While France has a problem with integration as in stripping away of all identity (which results in a clash), England suffers from not a lot of integration overall. People are tightly packed, and left in pockets of poor communities. Older generations have done better, but perhaps they have no idea how to cope with the younger ones. They become disenfranchised and unable to find an identity for themselves. Drugs, severe lack of jobs, a system that can be humiliating, poverty are some factors too. But not the main one. That's still hatred and it works both ways to feed each other. The government has taken a lip-service laid back position in doing... zilch and not addressing big problems for any of it's citizens.. We're seeing attacks in the UK mostly from it's own citizens because of the same factors that drive many criminals - only the motivation is caused by cult propaganda. Ultimately youths and younger men are vulnerable, because they ask the question ''what's my purpose in life'' and can't seem to get a handle on that in a society they don't seem to fit and an older generation that simply shrugs. It's clear that these type of youths make easy prey for ideologues wanting to use them and give them a purpose. America does have some integration problems, but overall we are a nation of immigrants and our society has had overall better success with it. The citizens attacking the UK have an attitude no different than the Boston bombers. And even though they had an Uncle Ruslan to box their ears try and straighten them out, that didn't help much. The UK also represents an easy target. No one is armed, there is plenty of targets to hit that are very soft, and it represents something they hate. The UK has a longstanding history of entanglement with the ME. They are likely hated even more than US. Democracy represents freedom and all the things with it that they hate.

 

It is clear that armed citizens is not something the UK as a nation feels comfortable with. As someone that grew up with so much violence, and has been there many times, it is a strange relief to not always have that concern around, something that is difficult for Americans to wrap their head around. But people do become not very vigilant, and I still believe in the right of someone to protect themselves. Not being able to do so, or the police lacking the means to do so, merely means they are a softer target. Lack of bodies and funds within the police force (and that is the reality right now) also hurt. A society without guns though simply means other crude methods can be employed... and the hate is still there.

 

BTW, May is touting internet monitoring again? Has she forgotten she can already do that and more? It's like she has no idea what she has had the ability to do all these years. Absolute joke woman.

Edited June 4, 2017 by yuna628

[Jacque67 7,328]

1 minute ago, spookyturtle said:

I said that may be a factor. Fortunately I'm in MA and we have some diligent citizens and good police departments. Ask the Marathon Bomber. 

Chairs and beer glasses work too

[spookyturtle 9,466]

Just now, Jacque67 said:

Chairs and beer glasses work too

But that's the problem, you Britts bring bottles to a gun fight. 

[Jacque67 7,328]

1 minute ago, yuna628 said:

Follow the money from the top all the way down to the community 'leaders' supposedly working in partnership with the government and things start making sense. Maybe even some (not all) of the Imams.

 

 

From the guardian breaking atm: Here we go again.

 

I would say for a few reasons: While France has a problem with integration as in stripping away of all identity (which results in a clash), England suffers from not a lot of integration overall. People are tightly packed, and left in pockets of poor communities. Older generations have done better, but perhaps they have no idea how to cope with the younger ones. They become disenfranchised and unable to find an identity for themselves. Drugs, severe lack of jobs, a system that can be humiliating, poverty are some factors too. But not the main one. That's still hatred and it works both ways to feed each other. The government has taken a lip-service laid back position in doing... zilch and not addressing big problems for any of it's citizens.. We're seeing attacks in the UK mostly from it's own citizens because of the same factors that drive many criminals - only the motivation is caused by cult propaganda. Ultimately youths and younger men are vulnerable, because they ask the question ''what's my purpose in life'' and can't seem to get a handle on that in a society they don't seem to fit and an older generation that simply shrugs. It's clear that these type of youths make easy prey for ideologues wanting to use them and give them a purpose. America does have some integration problems, but overall we are a nation of immigrants and our society has had overall better success with it. The citizens attacking the UK have an attitude no different than the Boston bombers. And even though they had an Uncle Ruslan to box their ears try and straighten them out, that didn't help much. The UK also represents an easy target. No one is armed, there is plenty of targets to hit that are very soft, and it represents something they hate. The UK has a longstanding history of entanglement with the ME. They are likely hated even more than US. Democracy represents freedom and all the things with it that they hate.

 

It is clear that armed citizens is not something the UK as a nation feels comfortable with. As someone that grew up with so much violence, and has been there many times, it is a strange relief to not always have that concern around, something that is difficult for Americans to wrap their head around. But people do become not very vigilant, and I still believe in the right of someone to protect themselves. Not being able to do so, or the police lacking the means to do so, merely means they are a softer target. Lack of bodies and funds within the police force (and that is the reality right now) also hurt. A society without guns though simply means other crude methods can be employed... and the hate is still there.

Plus 1000

[Jacque67 7,328]

1 minute ago, spookyturtle said:

But that's the problem, you Britts bring bottles to a gun fight. 

I'd take you on with a bottle any day !!!

guns didn't win in Vietnam .

Edited June 4, 2017 by Jacque67

[Bugs 455]

3 minutes ago, spookyturtle said:

I said that may be a factor. Fortunately I'm in MA and we have some diligent citizens and good police departments. Ask the Marathon Bomber. 

That made news, though.  Wouldn't there be more stories in the news of citizens and average police stopping terrorists?  I mean, I get that Homeland Security have probably averted many instances, but average citizens would likely be more headline newsworthy.  

[yuna628 9,873]

1 minute ago, spookyturtle said:

But that's the problem, you Britts bring bottles to a gun fight. 

My MiL was once attacked by a crazy lady using fists. You don't mess with my MiL, she tore that girl's weave and knocked her right out. British mommas are vicious. They don't always need a gun.

My SiL was attacked by a robber with a machete. She laughed at him. Literally laughed in his face. He was so stunned the punk ran away like the coward he was.

Don't mess with British ladies!

[Bugs 455]

12 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

Follow the money from the top all the way down to the community 'leaders' supposedly working in partnership with the government and things start making sense. Maybe even some (not all) of the Imams.

 

 

From the guardian breaking atm: Here we go again.

 

I would say for a few reasons: While France has a problem with integration as in stripping away of all identity (which results in a clash), England suffers from not a lot of integration overall. People are tightly packed, and left in pockets of poor communities. Older generations have done better, but perhaps they have no idea how to cope with the younger ones. They become disenfranchised and unable to find an identity for themselves. Drugs, severe lack of jobs, a system that can be humiliating, poverty are some factors too. But not the main one. That's still hatred and it works both ways to feed each other. The government has taken a lip-service laid back position in doing... zilch and not addressing big problems for any of it's citizens.. We're seeing attacks in the UK mostly from it's own citizens because of the same factors that drive many criminals - only the motivation is caused by cult propaganda. Ultimately youths and younger men are vulnerable, because they ask the question ''what's my purpose in life'' and can't seem to get a handle on that in a society they don't seem to fit and an older generation that simply shrugs. It's clear that these type of youths make easy prey for ideologues wanting to use them and give them a purpose. America does have some integration problems, but overall we are a nation of immigrants and our society has had overall better success with it. The citizens attacking the UK have an attitude no different than the Boston bombers. And even though they had an Uncle Ruslan to box their ears try and straighten them out, that didn't help much. The UK also represents an easy target. No one is armed, there is plenty of targets to hit that are very soft, and it represents something they hate. The UK has a longstanding history of entanglement with the ME. They are likely hated even more than US. Democracy represents freedom and all the things with it that they hate.

 

It is clear that armed citizens is not something the UK as a nation feels comfortable with. As someone that grew up with so much violence, and has been there many times, it is a strange relief to not always have that concern around, something that is difficult for Americans to wrap their head around. But people do become not very vigilant, and I still believe in the right of someone to protect themselves. Not being able to do so, or the police lacking the means to do so, merely means they are a softer target. Lack of bodies and funds within the police force (and that is the reality right now) also hurt. A society without guns though simply means other crude methods can be employed... and the hate is still there.

 

BTW, May is touting internet monitoring again? Has she forgotten she can already do that and more? It's like she has no idea what she has had the ability to do all these years. Absolute joke woman.

Interesting.  Thank you.

 

I agree that the U.S. does have its share of problems in the poor community and, in fact, we do see plenty of violence stemming from it as well, but we don't see it coming from Islamic terrorists as much.  

[Jacque67 7,328]

10 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

My MiL was once attacked by a crazy lady using fists. You don't mess with my MiL, she tore that girl's weave and knocked her right out. British mommas are vicious. They don't always need a gun.

My SiL was attacked by a robber with a machete. She laughed at him. Literally laughed in his face. He was so stunned the punk ran away like the coward he was.

Don't mess with British ladies!

Amen!!!

[Mr&Mrs G. 903]

17 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

A society without guns though simply means other crude methods can be employed... and the hate is still there.

The cruder method is more vicious and brutal, like the attack on the soldier in 2013 who had his head hacked off in the middle of the street. To me that attack sends more fear than any gun attack. It wouldn't surprise me if they chose the shock type attack rather than using a gun in the future.

 

Edited June 4, 2017 by Mr&Mrs G.

[Dashinka 25,856]

41 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

And yet Muslims of the community, even family members, did come forward, for years in fact, regarding the Manchester bomber, and the government did nothing. I suspect, we're going to find a similar pattern emerge... and it's disgustingly predictable. As often happens in such attacks, the government knows about these individuals... and do not act. Police forces have been severely cut across the country, the government is supposedly aware of many dangerous individuals but have not as of yet removed or prosecuted them, the government specifically gained power to invade every facet of British private life in the interest of stopping terrorism but has yet to really use such power (and it hasn't worked out well for them), their community outreach has been poor, in particular they have utilized and paid some 'community leaders' who other moderate Muslims have accused of being self-serving and only in it for money and votes and not solving problems (this is actually no different than the corrupt community leaders in our inner cities today). The government has also done hypocritical deals with sponsors of terrorism in the goal of protecting interests at the expense of their citizens. London government is tone-deaf to the issues facing the rest of the UK.

 

There are people that say this is the new normal.. horrific violence I mean. My husband points out to me that there is horrific violence that goes on in our American cities every single day. And no they aren't people wanting to kill others for some religious ideology, but they are people murdering others for any reason or no reason at all. As a person who grew up in the city of daily violence it was the normal then. And it is the normal now. Can hatred in all it's forms be cured? Unlikely... but it is the real problem that is rarely addressed. People in the UK are not as vigilant as they can be. My husband will admit this, because violence is not the same problem there as it is here. When armed officers patrol the streets, people often react fearfully instead of feeling more confident or safe. Look online right now and you'll see the hatred spewed as the new knee-jerk reaction. What they don't realize is that they are doing exactly what the murderers want. Their hatred is contributing to part of the problem. The UK having bombers with religious and political ideology isn't new and they shouldn't kid themselves about that. They've been there before. Where did hatred get them then?

 

Is it an insurmountable problem from the government perspective or is it a case of trying to balance invasion of privacy vs actual action?  It is difficult for the police no matter how well staffed to act on every lead they receive without an actual act.  There is also the political correctness aspect to consider.  As has been discussed on multiple threads, it is not right to equate the perpetrators of this act with an entire religion, so what can be done when a credible lead comes in?  I am not sure if I or anyone actually has all the answers, and government action is at best mediocre, so as you said, increased vigilance by the public itself seems the best course, but that may not stop the attacks, just possibly mitigate the aftermath.