How long before the white working class realizes Trump was just scamming them?

[OriZ 3,157]

I can see people's points that as a "deterrant", capitol punishment could be useful. For the actual criminal you are subjecting it to, I think there are worse punishments. Yes it costs us money, but I think being in a maximum security prison with little to no interaction for 50 years until you die is far worse than a quick death.

As for comparing it to abortion. Since I don't think abortion is killing anything (before age of viability) I don't see any comparison. But I recognize that is not what everyone thinks. This could easily devolve into a whole different discussion so I'll leave it at that.

I completely agree there too, 50 years until you die is definitely worse than a quick death. And in general, I think people don't realize how horrible prison is. Like, you'll have someone getting a 20 or 30 year sentence for something and people will say it's not enough, would they like to try and spend 20 years in prison? How about even 2? It's not like it's a cake walk.

There's something else none of us brought up yet. Those people have families too. If you execute someone for what they did, even if we decided they deserved it, why does their family deserve to lose their loved one? How will that make up for the crime they committed?

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

So... What IS the end goal?

rehabilitation isn't the end goal. in fact, rehabilitation has nothing to do with our current prison system and prisoners leave having paid their dues via time, but still saddled with other fines, costs, and inability to escape a conviction in the real world. people talk about rehabilitation in prison like it's something we strive for, and that is simply untrue.

[smilesammich 10,727]

So... What IS the end goal?

better question, how do prisons rehabilitate?

[The Nature Boy 7,659]

better question, how do prisons rehabilitate?

They don't I was a CJ major.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

As always... Cannot answer a direct question.

better question, how do prisons rehabilitate?

[The Nature Boy 7,659]

rehabilitation isn't the end goal. in fact, rehabilitation has nothing to do with our current prison system and prisoners leave having paid their dues via time, but still saddled with other fines, costs, and inability to escape a conviction in the real world. people talk about rehabilitation in prison like it's something we strive for, and that is simply untrue.

I reckon if you make 300 posts a month you bound to be right once in a while. If I remember correctly the US recidivism is around 75% at 5 years and 50% or so around 1. What we doing ain't working. Sure when you dealing with sociopaths, lock them up and forget them, Filling the Prisons with non violent drug offenders is not the answer.

The flip side of that is I think if the did hard labor in the elements and was any where as bad as Infantry boot camp, I think they would not be so quick to come back.

We have one of the highest recidivism rates in the world.

[smilesammich 10,727]

I reckon if you make 300 posts a month you bound to be right once in a while. If I remember correctly the US recidivism is around 75% at 5 years and 50% or so around 1. What we doing ain't working. Sure when you dealing with sociopaths, lock them up and forget them, Filling the Prisons with non violent drug offenders is not the answer.

The flip side of that is I think if the did hard labor in the elements and was any where as bad as Infantry boot camp, I think they would not be so quick to come back.

We have one of the highest recidivism rates in the world.

so, you'd agree that rehabilitation isn't the end goal?

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

Again... What IS the end goal?

So... What IS the end goal?

better question, how do prisons rehabilitate?

As always... Cannot answer a direct question.

so, you'd agree that rehabilitation isn't the end goal?

[The Nature Boy 7,659]

so, you'd agree that rehabilitation isn't the end goal?

Yes Tottaly

[marriedimorocco 8]

Say WHAT? Name me a town that has been under Sharia law in the USA prior to January 1, 2016.

Fiqh is law, not Sharia. Sharia is practice. It's what makes Muslims Muslim, and, that is not a bad thing. A bit of history for you: The first Iftar (breaking the fast during Ramadan) observed at the White House was hosted by Thomas Jefferson in 1805 for the Tunisian envoy, Sidi Soliman Mellimelli. Jefferson owned a well-read Quran which is still used for ceremonial occasions, including the swearing of the first Muslim US congressman, Keith Ellison of Minnesota in 2007.

Going even farther back, a North African Emir offered assistance to George Washington during the Revolutionary War. Washington accepted, and the Emir arranged for supplies to be moved to the states without tariffs in order to help the troops at Valley Forge. BTW, the first nation to recognize the United States as a sovereign nation was Morocco, with whom the US has the longest continuously in force treaty, Treaty of Peace and Friendship, drawn up in Arabic and signed in Morocco on June 23, 1786. Ratified by the US Congress on July 18, 1787. A snippet from the Treaty:

To all Persons to whom these Presents shall come or be made known- Whereas the United States of America in Congress assembled by their Commission bearing date the twelvth day of May One thousand Seven hundred and Eighty four thought proper to constitute John Adams, Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson their Ministers Plenipotentiary, giving to them or a Majority of them full Powers to confer, treat & negotiate with the Ambassador, Minister or Commissioner of His Majesty the Emperor of Morocco concerning a Treaty of Amity and Commerce, to make & receive propositions for such Treaty and to conclude and sign the same, transmitting it to the United States in Congress assembled for their final Ratification, And by one other (commission bearing date the Eleventh day of March One thousand Seven hundred & Eighty five did further empower the said Ministers Plenipotentiary or a majority of them, by writing under the* hands and Seals to appoint such Agent in the said Business as they might think proper with Authority under the directions and Instructions of the said Ministers to commence & prosecute the said Negotiations & Conferences for the said Treaty provided that the said Treaty should be signed by the said Ministers: And Whereas, We the said John Adams & Thomas Jefferson two of the said Ministers Plenipotentiary (the said Benjamin Franklin being absent) by writing under the Hand and Seal of the said John Adams at London October the fifth, One thousand Seven hundred and Eighty five, & of the said Thomas Jefferson at Paris October the Eleventh of the same Year, did appoint Thomas Barclay, Agent in the Business aforesaid, giving him the Powers therein, which by the said second Commission we were authorized to give, and the said Thomas Barclay in pursuance thereof, hath arranged Articles for a Treaty of Amity and Commerce between the United States of America and His Majesty the Emperor of Morocco, which Articles written in the Arabic Language, confirmed by His said Majesty the Emperor of Morocco & seal'd with His Royal Seal, being translated into the Language of the said United States of America, together with the Attestations thereto annexed are in the following Words, To Wit.

In the name of Almighty God,

This is a Treaty of Peace and Friendship established between us and the United States of America, which is confirmed, and which we have ordered to be written in this Book and sealed with our Royal Seal at our Court of Morocco on the twenty fifth day of the blessed Month of Shaban, in the Year One thousand two hundred, trusting in God it will remain permanent.

I hope that helps.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

Not according to this:

Rather, Sharia is a body of Quran-based guidance that points Muslims toward living an Islamic life. It doesn't come from the state, and it doesn't even come in one book or a single collection of rules. Sharia is divine and philosophical. The human interpretation of Sharia is called "Fiqh," or Islamic rules of right action, created by individual scholars based on the Quran and hadith (stories of the prophet Muhammad's life). Fiqh literally means "understanding" -- and its many different schools of thought illustrate that scholars knew they didn't speak for God.

Fiqh means deep understanding. Not sure how you interpret it to mean law.

Sharia might be for you, but I'd prefer it to not be part of our country. If islam (and by extension, sharia, muslims, et al.) is the religion of peace, then why has the Middle East been at war for centuries?

Fiqh is law, not Sharia. Sharia is practice. It's what makes Muslims Muslim, and, that is not a bad thing. A bit of history for you: The first Iftar (breaking the fast during Ramadan) observed at the White House was hosted by Thomas Jefferson in 1805 for the Tunisian envoy, Sidi Soliman Mellimelli. Jefferson owned a well-read Quran which is still used for ceremonial occasions, including the swearing of the first Muslim US congressman, Keith Ellison of Minnesota in 2007.

Going even farther back, a North African Emir offered assistance to George Washington during the Revolutionary War. Washington accepted, and the Emir arranged for supplies to be moved to the states without tariffs in order to help the troops at Valley Forge. BTW, the first nation to recognize the United States as a sovereign nation was Morocco, with whom the US has the longest continuously in force treaty, Treaty of Peace and Friendship, drawn up in Arabic and signed in Morocco on June 23, 1786. Ratified by the US Congress on July 18, 1787. A snippet from the Treaty:

To all Persons to whom these Presents shall come or be made known- Whereas the United States of America in Congress assembled by their Commission bearing date the twelvth day of May One thousand Seven hundred and Eighty four thought proper to constitute John Adams, Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson their Ministers Plenipotentiary, giving to them or a Majority of them full Powers to confer, treat & negotiate with the Ambassador, Minister or Commissioner of His Majesty the Emperor of Morocco concerning a Treaty of Amity and Commerce, to make & receive propositions for such Treaty and to conclude and sign the same, transmitting it to the United States in Congress assembled for their final Ratification, And by one other (commission bearing date the Eleventh day of March One thousand Seven hundred & Eighty five did further empower the said Ministers Plenipotentiary or a majority of them, by writing under the* hands and Seals to appoint such Agent in the said Business as they might think proper with Authority under the directions and Instructions of the said Ministers to commence & prosecute the said Negotiations & Conferences for the said Treaty provided that the said Treaty should be signed by the said Ministers: And Whereas, We the said John Adams & Thomas Jefferson two of the said Ministers Plenipotentiary (the said Benjamin Franklin being absent) by writing under the Hand and Seal of the said John Adams at London October the fifth, One thousand Seven hundred and Eighty five, & of the said Thomas Jefferson at Paris October the Eleventh of the same Year, did appoint Thomas Barclay, Agent in the Business aforesaid, giving him the Powers therein, which by the said second Commission we were authorized to give, and the said Thomas Barclay in pursuance thereof, hath arranged Articles for a Treaty of Amity and Commerce between the United States of America and His Majesty the Emperor of Morocco, which Articles written in the Arabic Language, confirmed by His said Majesty the Emperor of Morocco & seal'd with His Royal Seal, being translated into the Language of the said United States of America, together with the Attestations thereto annexed are in the following Words, To Wit.

In the name of Almighty God,

This is a Treaty of Peace and Friendship established between us and the United States of America, which is confirmed, and which we have ordered to be written in this Book and sealed with our Royal Seal at our Court of Morocco on the twenty fifth day of the blessed Month of Shaban, in the Year One thousand two hundred, trusting in God it will remain permanent.

I hope that helps.

Edited November 29, 2016 by LFEHFN

[marriedimorocco 8]

Not according to this:

Fiqh means deep understanding. Not sure how you interpret it to mean law.

Sharia might be for you, but I'd prefer it to not be part of our country. If islam (and by extension, sharia, muslims, et al.) is the religion of peace, then why has the Middle East been at war for centuries?

Fiqh is the various bodies of law developed by the validated Muslim schools of law. Sharia is the individual expression of faith interpreted by fallible human beings. They are not the same.

Muslims live in the US. It's their country, too. You have no choice in how others worship. You do have a choice in gaining a better understanding of other faiths than you currently have. The freedom and resources that America offers to you don't allow for an excuse to be willfully ignorant of those around you.

Christianity has been far more violent in far more places, including the Middle East, from the Crusades to the current attempts at regime change and nation building going on today. Look at your military cemeteries. They are full of headstones with crosses on them commemorating the fallen in foreign wars. Christians slaughtered the Native Americans so they could steal their land. "Your" Christian country is bathed in blood.

Edited November 29, 2016 by marriedimorocco

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

If I choose to be "willfully ignorant" of the religious beliefs of those around me, that is my choice, eh? If I opt not to believe in allah or any other god that supposedly drives some to do what they do, that is also my choice.

If "my" christian country is bathed in blood... Why did you choose to come here?

Fiqh is the various bodies of law developed by the validated Muslim schools of law. Sharia is the individual expression of faith interpreted by fallible human beings. They are not the same.

Muslims live in the US. It's their country, too. You have no choice in how others worship. You do have a choice in gaining a better understanding of other faiths than you currently have. The freedom and resources that America offers to you don't allow for an excuse to be willfully ignorant of those around you.

Christianity has been far more violent in far more places, including the Middle East, from the Crusades to the current attempts at regime change and nation building going on today. Look at your military cemeteries. They are full of headstones with crosses on them commemorating the fallen in foreign wars. Christians slaughtered the Native Americans so they could steal their land. "Your" Christian country is bathed in blood.

[TBoneTX 43,489]

Thread has been derailed from the original topic for some time and is now closed to further comment. Recent discussion about abortion, the death penalty, et al. can be continued in existing or new threads geared toward those subjects.