Does not look good

[Fandango 1,439]

#1 - if OP is asking whether he should marry this woman, my answer would be NO....cos she deserves a better man than him.

If she doesn't read it, and signs it, without having her own independent counsel represent HER best interests, it won't be worth the paper it's written on.

So all I have to do the next time I don't want to be bound by an agreement I signed, I just have to say I signed it without reading it and my obligation is removed????? I think you are wrong.

You are very correct there, not reading something and signing makes no difference, if you sign something you agree to what on the contract.

This is what hangs a lot of people in the computer world, it is what is called an end user license agreement, when you install a program and click yes to the lengthy agreement at the beginning of the install, you just signed that contract, and it holds up in court. Like if you install the program on many computers when you only have one copy of the program and it states in the electronic contract can only be used on 1 computer, people get taken to court and loose every day, the argument "I did not read that EULA" dose not fly.

I have heard there is legal precedence in some states of invalidating a pre-nup if the person signed a document that was not written there native language and that person was not adequately represented. Can't say this for sure but it is what I have heard

#2 - I am not aware of 'I didn't read it' as a defense for invalidating the pre-nupt. I do agree if there's a language barrier, maybe....however...OP has waited til she left everything...left her with not much of a choice, therefore she could theoretically claim she signed it under duress & protest.

I think that I have some ommited some things that may have led to a mis-understanding. In good faith, I brought my fiancee over here and I have supported her fully.

A couple of weeks after we arrive I find out she is opening my mail, and also my e-mail. I do not think that this is right-----------even when you are married. I simply think that mail addressed to you is your private business....and, by the way, I have nothing to hide--------it was the principle of the thing that I did not like--this cause me to have secound thoughts about the whole thing.

I always thought that the VisaJourney website was a fair forum for helping each other. I have never called anyone names or made bad comments to anyone. I was simply asking for a little advice.

Most responses, unfortunately, were way out of line and way too judgemental.

Don't misunderstand me....I am not judging you for wanting a pre-nupt. But if you can even utter/type thre phrase 'should I marry her?' then it is clear that this woman deserves a better man. One who would think HELL YEAH! I'M MARRYING HER! And I'm damned lucky too!!!

If either party doesn't feel that way, they are doing the other a disservice.

As far as the mail, it might be a culture issue. I dunno. If you haven't had the discussion before concerning parameters in a relationship, then things can be easily misconstrued.

I have no problems with prenups..... but it is something the couple should discuss in full before any commitments are made....

It is not something that should be just sprung on someone after they have made the move and committed themselves to marriage...

I belive the OP will have made a declaration of intent to marry when he filed for the K1 he is now in breach of that and I would advise her to seak legal advice as to what her rights are....

Kezzie

I'm not sure I am following all of the logic on this thread. While I recognise that some people have an objection that something appears to be 'sprung' on another (in other words untimely, as if 2 weeks earlier might have made a difference) I'm confused. How does timing affect this at all?

If the fiancée is marrying for all of the right reasons, that is, love and affection, then what difference would it make when the OP recommended the pre-nup, and at any time? It's not just about the OP wanting to place a pre-nup into effect, it's also about what values his fiancé places on the relationship. If untimely recommendation is at the root of this discussion, and it's improper to allow a woman to uproot and leave family, friends, job etc 'only to find an obstacle' placed before her and the alter, suggests to me that the values were possibly compromised. Can you really tell me that someone would alter his/her plans to marry over a pre-nup? Then what does that say about the love?

Well one can say the same for the other pov....maybe in the OP's fiancee's case, the drawing up a pre nup is giving off the wrong signs.

[lisakenn 1]

A pre-nuptial can be invalidated if the construct of the contract violates provisions in state statute.

But, that has nothing to do with reading it before signing. Many contracts are invalidated because they violate statutes.

Right on John_and_marlene. I am in a community property state. I had a friend that had his prenupt thrown out because, according to the judge -- state law says half belongs to her. What made you think you could exempt yourself from state law simply by writing on a piece of paper 'I am exempt and don't want to be covered by this law'. Not an exact quote but that was the essence of it. I know each state has its own laws, and each case its own merits. Just food for thought. Statutes are statutes and they apply to all of us whether we want to exempt ourselves or not.

I have to say that I agree with that statement...about the mail...My mom and dad have been married for almost 50 years, and she has never opened his mail for him, and he has never opened hers....its a respect boundry they do not cross...neither one has ulterior motives or hides anything from the other, but that personal boundry is always respected. Each one of us has our own personal boundries, and we all must try and respect each others'........ Perhaps your fiance does not see that she has offended a personal boundry with you...often people do what comes natural to them without considering what the other person finds acceptable......

[Nikita2Charles 31]

What was the common attraction between both of you, What brought you Together, is it LOVE or some form of arrangement, I can understand your plight, but LOVE is unconditional, She has left everything in her country and specially Uprooted her Daughter from her friends and family so she can be here with you. This matter should have been discussed or brought up way before you 2 got closer to each other, and made up your mind by then. Right now what you feel as her being mad or after your money, she might be OFFENDED and upset that you request her to sign a prenup.

And please don't bring up her past like she had 2 failed marriage, IS THAT A SURPRISE, you knew her situation before what has changed now, make a good reflection about yourself, and put yourself on the other side of the stick for a minute.

I wish you all the best, and I hope what brought you 2 together can ERASE all of those doubts.

[Welshcookie 17]

I'm not sure I am following all of the logic on this thread. While I recognise that some people have an objection that something appears to be 'sprung' on another (in other words untimely, as if 2 weeks earlier might have made a difference) I'm confused. How does timing affect this at all?

If the fiancée is marrying for all of the right reasons, that is, love and affection, then what difference would it make when the OP recommended the pre-nup, and at any time? It's not just about the OP wanting to place a pre-nup into effect, it's also about what values his fiancé places on the relationship. If untimely recommendation is at the root of this discussion, and it's improper to allow a woman to uproot and leave family, friends, job etc 'only to find an obstacle' placed before her and the alter, suggests to me that the values were possibly compromised. Can you really tell me that someone would alter his/her plans to marry over a pre-nup? Then what does that say about the love?

Because a Pre nup is an agreement between two people.....and springing it on her after she has left her 'life' behind with a child in tow doesn't give her much option than to sign does it? I agree with the other poster who suggests paying for her own lawyer to go over the Pre nup to make sure things are also to her benefit....now that would be playing fair......pre nups are an emotive subject and some think asking for one is a sign of lacking committment or doubt, personally I don't, we talked at length on the subject......but if it was bought up when I was in a vunerable position and not before, yeh I would be upset.

Edited October 19, 2006 by welshcookie

[Kathryn41 3,205]

Lisakenn wrote:

"I came to the United States almost a year ago and got married for the second time...I asked my husband before we married if he wanted a pre nuptual agreement...not so much for me, but for him...He has the most accumulated financially....He is the United States citizen, not me.....He did, for the record, say no, but I would have loved him no less if he said yes.....Perhaps I'm just different than most..."

I too broached the subject with my then fiance if he wanted to do a pre-nup agreement as he has the most accumulated financially as well. Like your husband, he very definitely said no, it was not necessary. Knowing how honourably he has behaved to his ex wife - who is not that nice of a person - I have never had any concerns about my well-being if - a very unlikely if - this marriage doesn't last. I agree that a pre-nup has to be something talked about early on in the relationship when you are both deciding to join your lives together - not left to the last minute.

I think one of the things fairly obvious from the OPs comments is it appears you don't have much sensitivity to your

fiancee's cultural differences. You are expecting her to adapt right away to your way of doing things - which is certainly understandable while living in the US - but are your expectations aligned with her experiences back home? Perhaps her mother always opened the family mail and this is part of her personal experiences. In the early days especially, you both have to be super sensitive to the differences in your backgrounds - which can be monumental when you are dealing with two different countries. Even for two countries as similar as Canada and the US we have come across different perspectives and misunderstandings that we have had to discuss and resolve; how much more likely is this when the countries are so dissimilar?

If you are not willing to 'work it out' then perhaps you are not really ready to get married, to this woman or to any woman. Be happy in your material assets if those are more important to you than the relationship, but you will be better off if you realize you are just as responsible for miunderstandings and missed-expectations as is your fiancee.

Edited October 19, 2006 by Kathryn41

[garya505 2]

Could it be that she was just a gold-digger looking for a green card and that asking for a pre-nup ferreted her out?

[diadromous mermaid 36]

I'm not sure I am following all of the logic on this thread. While I recognise that some people have an objection that something appears to be 'sprung' on another (in other words untimely, as if 2 weeks earlier might have made a difference) I'm confused. How does timing affect this at all?

If the fiancée is marrying for all of the right reasons, that is, love and affection, then what difference would it make when the OP recommended the pre-nup, and at any time? It's not just about the OP wanting to place a pre-nup into effect, it's also about what values his fiancé places on the relationship. If untimely recommendation is at the root of this discussion, and it's improper to allow a woman to uproot and leave family, friends, job etc 'only to find an obstacle' placed before her and the alter, suggests to me that the values were possibly compromised. Can you really tell me that someone would alter his/her plans to marry over a pre-nup? Then what does that say about the love?

Because a Pre nup is an agreement between two people.....and springing it on her after she has left her 'life' behind with a child in tow doesn't give her much option than to sign does it? I agree with the other poster who suggests paying for her own lawyer to go over the Pre nup to make sure things are also to her benefit....now that would be playing fair......pre nups are an emotive subject and some think asking for one is a sign of lacking committment or doubt, personally I don't, we talked at length on the subject......but if it was bought up when I was in a vunerable position and not before, yeh I would be upset.

I don't think the issue was that she was being forced to sign it without time to consult an attorney, unless I missed some part of the discussion. The uproar, as far as I can see it, is that people believe that springing it upon her after she's made a move across the world is improper, and that discussion about this should have occurred before a decision to marry was made.

Frankly, were that to be the case, then it would cause me to pause about what is at the core of the relationship. And, yes, the argument can be made from both perspectives. If the fiancée objects to the pre-nup (after having opportunity to review it with counsel) then her priorities in the marriage are skewed. If the OP will not permit her the opportunity to review it with counsel, then his priorities in the marriage are skewed.

The mere presentation of the pre-nup, at whatever time chosen, be it his decision or hers as to when it is presented, is not the crux of the problem, in my opinion. If both are marrying for love and respect of each other, each would be willing to sign whenever it is presented (as long as it is not manipulative and as long as the recipient is given appropriate opportunity to review it as one would with any contract) and, further, if they both respect each other it wouldn't be manipulative.

[garya505 2]

A pre-nuptial can be invalidated if the construct of the contract violates provisions in state statute.

But, that has nothing to do with reading it before signing. Many contracts are invalidated because they violate statutes.

Right on John_and_marlene. I am in a community property state. I had a friend that had his prenupt thrown out because, according to the judge -- state law says half belongs to her. What made you think you could exempt yourself from state law simply by writing on a piece of paper 'I am exempt and don't want to be covered by this law'. Not an exact quote but that was the essence of it. I know each state has its own laws, and each case its own merits. Just food for thought. Statutes are statutes and they apply to all of us whether we want to exempt ourselves or not.

State laws vary, but Community Property states often define property acquired during the marriage as Community Property and property owned individually before the marriage as Separate Property. Only the Community Property is divided upon divorce.

Also, some states recognize pre-nups that override the division of Comunity Property and some do not.

[diadromous mermaid 36]

and springing it on her after she has left her 'life' behind with a child in tow doesn't give her much option than to sign does it?

I don't believe the OP suggested that she should sign, "or else", and yes she'd have options such as making sure that her separate property not become part of the marital estate. The OP did say that she had some assets of her own, if I remember correctly. Other than separately held property, most pre-nups don't impact the jointly acquired assets or appreciation of the marital assets (naturally, we don't know where they are to live, and each state does handle distribution of marital assets differently, so that should be a consideration). So, in essence were the marriage to go asunder, she'd be protected to the degree that she could preserve that which she had before she agreed to marry.

Could it be that she was just a gold-digger

I'd have to say that if I were to present my beloved with a prenup and he faltered in his decision to marry, it sure would raise some hairs on the back of my neck. I'd hope I'd be the prize and not my possessions.

[AnaAndDaniel 0]

Could it be that she was just a gold-digger

I'd have to say that if I were to present my beloved with a prenup and he faltered in his decision to marry, it sure would raise some hairs on the back of my neck. I'd hope I'd be the prize and not my possessions.

call me naive, but i thought these details should have been ironed out before bringing someone over from overseas. To me, having someone uproot themselves is a tremendous sacrifice.

I understand that the OP was using the K1 which is intended for "kicking the tires" situation. maybe that is the key here. If the lady knew full well the implications of comng over on such a conditional visa and situation, then maybe it isn't so bad.

But i think she came over with full intentions of getting married.

bleh. just flabbergasted.

Daniel

:energetic:

[babybunny 2]

My finacee and her 11 year old daughter and I arrived here in the U.S. last August 2nd.

The daughter enrolled in school and is doing OK.

I have a on-going 24 year -old business that I have been very successful at. I also own several income-producing real estate properties.

About a month ago, on the advice of my attorney and CPA, I discussed with my finacee about preparing a pre-nupt agreement.

She really suprised me---she became very offfended that I would suggest such a thing. I attempted to explain to her that it would be in BOTH of our interests. She is a university graduate and skilled in the business world, so maybe I mis-calculated her desires, character, or whatever.

Now, I am having very serious doubts about the marriage. Her time in the U.S. is runnning out.

You might be ready to tell me--"why didn't you two talk about this a long time ago?" Well, to me, it makes a heck of a lot of sense to have a prenupt in this day and age in America--especially when both parties have financial interestes (she owns two apartments in her home country) and 1 out of 2 marriages end in divorce within three years in this country.

I tried to explain the benefits of the agreement not only for me, but for HER, also. She told me she would absolutely not read it, but would sign it, and she was very upset about the whole thing.

Her reaction seems so childish to me. Do I want to marry this woman?

Has anyone else been in this situation? Thanks.

I think your an azz hole.

she up rooted herself and her child to be with you and now she get here.

you wanna pull the old pre nup ####### out on her.. yeah your pretty low. plus you stated

time is running out.. your danginling this over her and her childs head.

then you ended your long drown out posting with calling her " this woman".

if she is savvy - she should leave your punk azz. .your a snake!

[hockeygal 0]

My finacee and her 11 year old daughter and I arrived here in the U.S. last August 2nd.

The daughter enrolled in school and is doing OK.

I have a on-going 24 year -old business that I have been very successful at. I also own several income-producing real estate properties. About a month ago, on the advice of my attorney and CPA, I discussed with my finacee about preparing a pre-nupt agreement.

It doesn’t sound to me like this was something the OP waited to spring on her, it sounds like it came up after she was here based on legal/financial advice he got.

Honestly, whatever your personal opinion of prenups, the OP is not the first person to have something come up after the visa is activated to make them question whether marriage is the right thing to do. The only people who really know what is going on in a relationship are the people in the relationship.

[Kez/JWolf 6]

For those of you who feel that this man is only trying to look out for his future wifes intrests you should read his other post http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...=37855&st=0

He wants info about how he can dump her and her child without any means to support themselves....

oh man........

Kezzie

[hockeygal 0]

I never said he was looking out for her interests, I said it doesn't seem he waited deliberately to "spring" it on her.

[LaL 418]

I never said he was looking out for her interests, I said it doesn't seem he waited deliberately to "spring" it on her.

Maybe not deliberately waited, however did spring it on her right before the supposed wedding. Just REALLY POOR TIMING on the behalf of the OP. It does not sound like within the last couple of weeks he came into a sum of money to protect. If the OP does have a lifestyle to *protect* then a prenup should have been on the mind waaaay before the wedding. If you can't understand why SPRINGING this on her is so offensive, gosh, good luck to you!

end of story:

SHOULD HAVE, SHOULD HAVE, SHOULD HAVE discussed this prior to her uprooting herself & CHILD, and no complaining that she should understand will equate that.