Nightmare of an Interview @ Mumbai 4/19

[cnm2001 3]

Enough not to cause a read flag?

Don't let's forget whose opinion matters more here, and I believe that the CO stated it though I may have to go back and reread it.

You are right that it might be enough to cause a reg flag, but SunDancer has the right to feel that justice was not served. I have no right to suggest that she is wrong to feel that way.

[Iyawo Ijebu 157]

You are right that it might be enough to cause a reg flag, but SunDancer has the right to feel that justice was not served. I have no right to suggest that she is wrong to feel that way.

I think we all agree that the alleged way her SO was treated in inconsiderate and not nice.

[cnm2001 3]

Population of India is c 1,170,938,000

So what sub culture is this normal and what sort of percentage would such cases make?

10% plus

5% plus

....1% plus...

I can mention at least four such cases. You can't say that it doesn't exist just because you haven't seen any such cases. It amounts to making an argument from silence.

[Iyawo Ijebu 157]

My point was that in a country of more than a billion people, folks marry in all sorts of ways. It is simplistic to talk about "Indian societal norms."

So do you have your own data to offer to discount Sachinky (sp) ascertain?

I actually posed this question today to an Indian coworker? Her answer mimics Sachinsky (sp) viewpoint.

However, please let's be clear, I am not ridiculing the OP, I sympathise with her and her SO should not have been treated that way, if true.

I'm just in search of what makes COs tick and perhaps others similar to OPs age rance can benefit.

[sachinky 464]

You say "Not once did the OP in her opening post ask for help or suggestions. I can't find a single sentence where she says that."

If you didn't think she asked for suggestions, why did you feel the need to respond? I am sure you could have ignored her post. Were you upset that she was complaining about the CO?

No one comes to VJ to display social skills, but any interaction, even a faceless one like this, calls for respect for others.

I wish you also a nice night. As I said, none of this intended to be harsh on you. Just a suggestion that everyone deserves respect.

I was doing another good deed as a VJ Samaritan and pointing out to her the (supremely obvious) reasons that the visa was denied (since she showed zero acknowledgement of them). Because once she's done raving and ranting, recognition of those very factors that led to the denial will actually help her in the second round, should she decide to embark on Round II. B!tching to internet strangers is no doubt cathartic but in the long term, kind of pointless.

Meh, I am no champion defender of the consulate officers -- I just recognize that their job is not easy. Here's the thing, though, do you think if the CO had been rude and insulting to her fiance and still issued the visa at the end, she'd be up in arms writing letters to Congressmen? I'm guessing not. That tells me that she's p!ssed off that 1. her fiance was denied (and 2. ill-treated) as is her right. But overcoming all those red-flags with substantial evidence (no doubt an uphill task especially if they charge him with material misrep) is ultimately going to be more fruitful than letter-writing and venting. I am still not sure where I disrespected her, though. If you think about it, actually, my comments are a lot more practical, elaborate and actual in terms of advice than a lot of these supposedly helpful and supportive comments that don't offer anything else beyond "God Bless" and "how dare they!"

[cnm2001 3]

I was doing another good deed as a VJ Samaritan and pointing out to her the (supremely obvious) reasons that the visa was denied (since she showed zero acknowledgement of them). Because once she's done raving and ranting, recognition of those very factors that led to the denial will actually help her in the second round, should she decide to embark on Round II. B!tching to internet strangers is no doubt cathartic but in the long term, kind of pointless.

Meh, I am no champion defender of the consulate officers -- I just recognize that their job is not easy. Here's the thing, though, do you think if the CO had been rude and insulting to her fiance and still issued the visa at the end, she'd be up in arms writing letters to Congressmen? I'm guessing not. That tells me that she's p!ssed off that 1. her fiance was denied (and 2. ill-treated) as is her right. But overcoming all those red-flags with substantial evidence (no doubt an uphill task especially if they charge him with material misrep) is ultimately going to be more fruitful than letter-writing and venting. I am still not sure where I disrespected her, though. If you think about it, actually, my comments are a lot more practical, elaborate and actual in terms of advice than a lot of these supposedly helpful and supportive comments that don't offer anything else beyond "God Bless" and "how dare they!"

Thanks for your response. Wishing you a wonderful night.

[L+T 71]

So do you have your own data to offer to discount Sachinky (sp) ascertain?

I actually posed this question today to an Indian coworker? Her answer mimics Sachinsky (sp) viewpoint.

However, please let's be clear, I am not ridiculing the OP, I sympathise with her and her SO should not have been treated that way, if true.

I'm just in search of what makes COs tick and perhaps others similar to OPs age rance can benefit.

Interesting, I also ask Indian co-worker about this and he said it would never happen, maybe 1 in 1000. Which to me meant if the CO denied this case 1000 times, he was right 999 times. Unfortunately poor Harsh paid the price for others fraud. This is the unfortunate circumstance as it relates to the statistical history of current and prior fraud working its way through the system.

[sachinky 464]

I can mention at least four such cases. You can't say that it doesn't exist just because you haven't seen any such cases. It amounts to making an argument from silence.

By Indian you mean, of Indian origin? If not, where in India are you from? I am having a hard time believing that you personally know of 4 cases where a 20 year old Indian boy was engaged/married to a nearly 40 year old Indian woman who had previously had a child out of wedlock. You're telling me that this couple, according to you, would be deemed totally normal and acceptable in Indian society circles? In your experience, this is a routine case?

If so, what are you smoking? And can I get in on some of it?

Edited May 1, 2012 by sachinky

[sachinky 464]

T-Bone -- Btw, thanks for your kind comments. You sure know how to make a girl blush.

[LA NEGRA 19]

It is sad to hear that age will make such a big impact on some people, my fiance and I also have a 10 year age diference me being older then him. I just hope and pray that things gets better for you cause in our culture (hispanic/latinos) age diference is a normal thing....

Edited May 1, 2012 by LA NEGRA

[sachinky 464]

Again, I just want to say that what I was upset and appalled at was the way my fiance' was treated. Yes I understand there is fraud out there and they only have a short amount of time to try to ascertain if the person they are interviewing is in fact trying to commit fraud. However there is still a proper and professional way to do that. I am not saying that they should have coddled him and acted like his best friend. But at the very least they should have treated him like a human being, but instead they screamed at him and interrogated him for over 2 hours. That is what I was originally stating when I posted this topic, not that I was surprised that they issued us a 221g, As I had stated before I knew this was going to be a journey. we had discussed this numerous times. I do not pretend to be an expert on India just because I was there for 2 weeks.There is much I do not know about India, every day when I talk to my fiance' I feel like I learn something new about India. My parents brought me up to not be judgmental,racist,sexist or anything. I was taught regardless of color,age,gender,religion,ethnicity or what ever that we are all human beings. No so long ago we had slavery, but now that has been abolished. Yes there is still racism but it gets better a little each day, yes there are different cultures all over the world. But my fiance' was told flat out,"You are Indian and she is a White American it is impossible for you two to have a valid relationship". If you want to get technical yes I am an American, however I am 3/4 French and 1/4 Native American Indian. Again why should it matter what nationality any of us are? Sorry I am just rambling off a bunch of nonsense but in my opinion age,race or if either of you have been married before or have kids should not be relevant in this process. I feel if there is fraud then it is fraud and should be dealt with accordingly with the law. Many of us do not choose who we fall in love with, yet it seems like we are being singled out and punished if any of us have any kind of difference such as in my case we are not both Indian so a valid relationship is not possible, who's right is it to say that we don't have a real valid relationship? Some of you on here or anyone in India just because you don't know anyone who has a similar relationship that my fiance' and I have. I am sorry but that is just ridiculous, again we are human beings so why can't we embrace other cultures? Just because it is not the "norm"? Makes no sense to me.

I am relieved to hear that because I didn't get that AT ALL from your OP which is why I was frankly, surprised at your outrage and shock. It is wonderful that you were brought up with wonderful values and that you are not sexist, ageist, racist, judgemental etc. But to be fair, it's not your intention or sincerity that is being questioned, at the end of the day. It's your fiance's. Indian society, by and large, still operates on a traditional set-up and relatively conservative values. A lot of people ARE racist, sexist, xenophobic etc. Some will hide it well. Others wear it like a badge of honor. There's not much sense of being politically correct. There are a lot of double standards that exist. (Don't get me wrong, I love my country -- but I can recognize its social ills). The concept of love and marriage are very different than what you would find in western countries. Yada yada yada. A relationship like yours veers far too much from the conventional to be ever deemed "normal" or "acceptable." I realize this may be a hurtful statement but again, it is not my intention to offend.

[i am surely making broad, general statements, of course, I would never claim that all Indians are monolithic in their attitudes or behaviors (I know that I am very different from what an archetypal Indian would be and have been told so many times) but despite several sub-cultures (different rules for different classes, castes, religions, urban/rural areas etc), society generally operates on a similar structure.] Indian society, let's say, simply hasn't evolved enough to the point that a relationship like yours wouldn't raise eyebrows. The consulate officers know that very well. That's the presumption that they are operating from. They know that if all other factors remaining constant, you were an Indian woman, it'd be fair to say that this relationship would not exist. They are also well aware how an average Indian male's parents would likely to feel about this situation. Now it could that yours is the 1 out of 1000 where it is a bona-fide (and yes, I would peg the odds that low) relationship but that's not the kind of odds you wanna be betting on. Especially not when the stakes are so high.

As one half of an inter-racial couple who successfully made it through, I always try to dispell this notion that US consulates have it out for all inter-racial couples. If they had an all-out bias against them, then I would not be here. The three or four couples who interviewed along the same time as I did wouldn't be filing for ROC right now with me. Another thread informs me that V&C received their visa on Friday. So clearly it's not the issue of race per se, but evolution and circumstances of the relationship that come into play. Unfortunately, right now you're asking them to swallow a lot and most of it is woefully unpalateable. I have written more here on another thread regarding inter-racial couples and I don't feel like copy-pasting all of it. The link's here. http://www.visajourn...ples-post-here/

I am in complete agreement with you in that all interviewing applicants should be treated with basic courtesy and respect. My guess would be that these are intimidation tactics. Yell and berate people enough, they'll probably squeal their guts and confess. Nervousness and anxiety are likely to reveal true motives, etc. That would be my guess.

All that said, I wish you the best in moving forward. Again, I am not trying to be "mean" to you or be "judgemental" about your relationship. My comments have very little to do with you or how I personally feel about your relationship; rather more with how a consulate officer is likely to see your relationship, given the average Indian mindset, social attitudes, and cultural norms. It's fair and fine to say, "oh, all Indians don't think the same way, etc" but consulate officers are looking at the law of averages and relationships with similar sort of fraud indicators generally don't have a positive history. That's all. I hope I have explained myself adequately.

Edited May 1, 2012 by sachinky

[cnm2001 3]

By Indian you mean, of Indian origin? If not, where in India are you from? I am having a hard time believing that you personally know of 4 cases where a 20 year old Indian boy was engaged/married to a nearly 40 year old Indian woman who had previously had a child out of wedlock. You're telling me that this couple, according to you, would be deemed totally normal and acceptable in Indian society circles? In your experience, this is a routine case?

If so, what are you smoking? And can I get in on some of it?

I spent the first 25 yrs of my life in India, and still hold an Indian passport. I travel to India at least once or twice each year. Why do you have such hard time believing that I know of four such cases? Does it bother you when someone disagrees with you? The four couples that I know are urbanites who have transcended traditional notions of marriage. The difference between isn't 24 yrs but close (BTW, SunDancer's fiance is 24yrs old, not 20 as you say. I suggest that you reread her post). I never said their situation would be deemed normal. In fact, I explicitly stated that "it is not "normal." You seem to be having trouble comprehending posts. So, the question is, what are you drinking when you are on this site?

Edited May 1, 2012 by cnm2001

[cnm2001 3]

I was doing another good deed as a VJ Samaritan and pointing out to her the (supremely obvious) reasons that the visa was denied (since she showed zero acknowledgement of them). Because once she's done raving and ranting, recognition of those very factors that led to the denial will actually help her in the second round, should she decide to embark on Round II. B!tching to internet strangers is no doubt cathartic but in the long term, kind of pointless.

Meh, I am no champion defender of the consulate officers -- I just recognize that their job is not easy. Here's the thing, though, do you think if the CO had been rude and insulting to her fiance and still issued the visa at the end, she'd be up in arms writing letters to Congressmen? I'm guessing not. That tells me that she's p!ssed off that 1. her fiance was denied (and 2. ill-treated) as is her right. But overcoming all those red-flags with substantial evidence (no doubt an uphill task especially if they charge him with material misrep) is ultimately going to be more fruitful than letter-writing and venting. I am still not sure where I disrespected her, though. If you think about it, actually, my comments are a lot more practical, elaborate and actual in terms of advice than a lot of these supposedly helpful and supportive comments that don't offer anything else beyond "God Bless" and "how dare they!"

You still haven't said why you could not ignore SunDancer's original post, if you didn't think she was asking for suggestions. You say that you "just recognize that [the Co's] job is not easy." Were you feeling bad for them? Or, did you want to defend (by way of gratitude) the CO who granted you a visa in less than three minutes? In either case, you did not have to say anything disrespectful of SunDancer.

[rade2rising 205]

my head is hurting reading these past couple pages

[sachinky 464]

You still haven't said why you could not ignore SunDancer's original post, if you didn't think she was asking for suggestions.

Because this is a free country. God Bless, America.

Because VJ doesn't charge by the sentence. God Bless, VJ. I would be much more mindful of my verbosity if that were the case, I promise.

Because I am free to post as and when I please as long as I don't violate the VJ TOS. And I haven't. (So far).

The bigger question here is, why do YOU feel the need to continue to respond to me (when ignore user button has clearly been pointed out to you)? I am clearly not asking for help or suggestions, either, when according to your comment, those are seemingly the only reason somebody should be posting in response. Why do you feel the need to defend SunDancer? I am clearly not attacking her. You could just as ignore my posts and go on your own merry way.