illegal immigration

[ScottnIzabela 25]

http://www.transparent.com/polish/fraudulent-marriages-in-poland/

it bothers me a lot that any political group advocates for the self destructive action of open borders.

we all here know the agony and pain in the backside we are all going thru and yet others think because they can and want to it is

ok to just take whatever they can.

and we are saturated with liberals and progressive minded people who think it is just fine to let anyone cross and join our communities and

nation.

why is it ok for most of the civilized world to enforce their own laws to protect the nation but we cant?

[Kathryn41 3,205]

I don't think it is really the situation of the US not enforcing its immigration laws, it is more like the departments involved are overwhelmed by the volume of work they have to do and the size of the problem.

There is a lot of fraud and illegal immigrant activity because the US is an attractive target and for some, an available target. USCIS and ICE are restricted by financial and manpower limitations, combined with covering huge mandates with systems and departments that don't communicate well with each other nor share information. They have to walk a fine line between preventing those who are not eligible to enter the country and ensuring those who are eligible and do meet the criteria are allowed in following the appropriate processes. These decisions are not always clear-cut.

Those of us here on VJ involved with trying to get a non-US partners legally into the US complain bitterly about the process that keeps us apart from our loved ones. The many hoops we have to jump through and the long periods of time involved are reflections of the US' attempts to do exactly what you want them to do - enforce their own immigration laws just like the other 'civilized' countries in the world are doing. We just happen to be a lot bigger than most other countries so end up having a bigger problem.

This isn't necessarily a political question that you can lay at the feet of any one political party or ideology, although it is certainly popular to label all liberal or progressive minded individuals as pro immigration fraud/illegal immigration. That is an overly simplistic view of a very complicated situation. I think we will all agree that the current immigration process and situation in the US is 'flawed' if not outright broken, but the problems involved in fixing it are much bigger than political ideologies and will remain problems if we keep using that as an excuse not to try and find non-polarized solutions to very real issues.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Kathryn41

[mr and mrs 187]

well said, kathryn.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I don't think it is really the situation of the US not enforcing its immigration laws, it is more like the departments involved are overwhelmed by the volume of work they have to do and the size of the problem.

There is a lot of fraud and illegal immigrant activity because the US is an attractive target and for some, an available target. USCIS and ICE are restricted by financial and manpower limitations, combined with covering huge mandates with systems and departments that don't communicate well with each other nor share information. They have to walk a fine line between preventing those who are not eligible to enter the country and ensuring those who are eligible and do meet the criteria are allowed in following the appropriate processes. These decisions are not always clear-cut.

Those of us here on VJ involved with trying to get a non-US partners legally into the US complain bitterly about the process that keeps us apart from our loved ones. The many hoops we have to jump through and the long periods of time involved are reflections of the US' attempts to do exactly what you want them to do - enforce their own immigration laws just like the other 'civilized' countries in the world are doing. We just happen to be a lot bigger than most other countries so end up having a bigger problem.

This isn't necessarily a political question that you can lay at the feet of any one political party or ideology, although it is certainly popular to label all liberal or progressive minded individuals as pro immigration fraud/illegal immigration. That is an overly simplistic view of a very complicated situation. I think we will all agree that the current immigration process and situation in the US is 'flawed' if not outright broken, but the problems involved in fixing it are much bigger than political ideologies and will remain problems if we keep using that as an excuse not to try and find non-polarized solutions to very real issues.

Sorry Kathryn but the hoops we jump through are designed to limit legal immigrants and nothing else.

There is little effort to limit illegal immigration except window dressing. Illegal immigration and fraud could be largely eliminated tomorrow with a simple expedient of oppressive punishment for anyoe that hires an illegal immigrant and does not use E-verify to qualify them to work. Neither party will do it. Illegals are her for economic reasons and need to be discouraged with economic solutions.

BOTH political parties want illegal immigrants for cheap labor. They are modernslaves and nothing else.

Our politicians pass admirable laws to protect workers, give them benefits, minimum wage, worker safety laws, family and medical leave act, etc. and then look the other way as employers avoid all that by hiring undocumented workers that are not officially "here"

The politicians know how to fix the problem. But then Republicans would need to go to their business base and say "hey you guys are really going to have to pay for all these benefits and wage and hour laws we passed" and the Democrats would have to go to their base and say "sorry but there are not going to any more Hispanic illegals working here"

Americans WILL do these jobs if Americans are paid and treated as our laws require and the market dictates. Illegals are not hired because they are better roofers than Americans, they are hired because it is cheaper to hire them than pay the cost of employing legal workers and the risk is less than the benefit. Simple.

We just need to reverse that and the job is done.

[Kathryn41 3,205]

I agree that the situation with regards to illegal 'economic' immigrants is true and that this is part of the flaw in the current immigration legislation. The hoops we jump through, however, are not designed to prevent legal immigration (although it certainly feels like it at times); but are designed to keep undesirables that the USCIS knows about and has some hope of a chance of controlling, out of the country. There are regular news stories about another 'marriage fraud' ring busted in the US media. I think it is important to remember that because of the way USCIS is structured - and the current corporate 'citizens' support for illegal immigration workers - these are easier for USCIS/DOS to address than the huge problem of illegally employed no status or out of status foreigners. As the news article quoted in the original post was on a foreign marriage fraud ring being busted, I addressed my response to the non-employment based immigration aspects of the immigration process and legislation.

If the US would ever get its act together and create a workable guest worker program that doesn't take forever to process it would help immensely. While it is fine to say pay farm workers and food factory workers decent wages and Americans would be willing to do the job, I still think there are some jobs Americans will not be willing to do even for a decent wage and benefits due to the necessary working conditions. Paying what would get them to put up with the lousy work environment would then make the cost of the food products so prohibitive that few would be willing or able to afford the product.. Since some of the jobs will require more than decent wages to get them done by Americans, there will always be room for a well-designed and well-run guest worker program, perhaps one that will allow an eventual pathway to residency and citizenship through a legal process. With this avenue more readily available it would then be easier to target employers who knowingly violate immigration employment laws and prosecute them. You want to make it easier for people to do things the legal way than the illegal way. Until that happens, though, politicians and agricultural industrialist employers are going to remain in bed together.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Kathryn41

[scotinmass 588]

Sorry Kathryn but the hoops we jump through are designed to limit legal immigrants and nothing else.

There is little effort to limit illegal immigration except window dressing. Illegal immigration and fraud could be largely eliminated tomorrow with a simple expedient of oppressive punishment for anyoe that hires an illegal immigrant and does not use E-verify to qualify them to work. Neither party will do it. Illegals are her for economic reasons and need to be discouraged with economic solutions.

BOTH political parties want illegal immigrants for cheap labor. They are modernslaves and nothing else.

Our politicians pass admirable laws to protect workers, give them benefits, minimum wage, worker safety laws, family and medical leave act, etc. and then look the other way as employers avoid all that by hiring undocumented workers that are not officially "here"

The politicians know how to fix the problem. But then Republicans would need to go to their business base and say "hey you guys are really going to have to pay for all these benefits and wage and hour laws we passed" and the Democrats would have to go to their base and say "sorry but there are not going to any more Hispanic illegals working here"

Americans WILL do these jobs if Americans are paid and treated as our laws require and the market dictates. Illegals are not hired because they are better roofers than Americans, they are hired because it is cheaper to hire them than pay the cost of employing legal workers and the risk is less than the benefit. Simple.

We just need to reverse that and the job is done.

I agree entirely with what you say but are people willing to see prices for everything going up drastically to pay for every worker to get a fair wage and benefits. If we get all our clothes and goods made in this country by an expensive work force instead of in China or Vietnam or wherever where people are working for $5 a week then prices will rise drastically and the economy will be more screwed than it already is.

There is no easy answer. That's why neither party really wants to address it but will blame each other for the problem.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I agree entirely with what you say but are people willing to see prices for everything going up drastically to pay for every worker to get a fair wage and benefits. If we get all our clothes and goods made in this country by an expensive work force instead of in China or Vietnam or wherever where people are working for $5 a week then prices will rise drastically and the economy will be more screwed than it already is.

There is no easy answer. That's why neither party really wants to address it but will blame each other for the problem.

If they were not willing to pay for that then they should not support that and simply allow child labor, no minimum wage, no OSHA, no Medicare, No SS, etc. Besides, how many billions are we spending in addition to the price of lettuce and labor to allow illegals to stay here? There is a huge "hidden cost" on terms of services we lose and taxes we pay because of this.

YES you will pay more for things. But you will pay more if the fences succeed or the other nonsense they talk about. ANYTHING that will succeed in stemming illegal immigration will raise prices...and wages in this country.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

I recently read an article that the US will reach a jobs tipping point in 2015 where work is likely imported. I believe one factor with this is fuel (with the exception of the speculative crash of 2008 fuel prices have been consistently rising for about 7-8 years now).

It may be a bit of a pipe dream, but I could see the US as a more dominant exporter both in terms of manufactered goods and a much smaller importer of energy by the end of this decade.

With regards to illegal immigrants, I thouroughly believe that employer enforcement would succeed with the exception of nomadic farm work. Those jobs could have pay as high as 20 USD and not attract workers. Here is where I agree with Kathyrn about a reformed guest worker program.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Sousuke

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I agree that the situation with regards to illegal 'economic' immigrants is true and that this is part of the flaw in the current immigration legislation. The hoops we jump through, however, are not designed to prevent legal immigration (although it certainly feels like it at times); but are designed to keep undesirables that the USCIS knows about and has some hope of a chance of controlling, out of the country. There are regular news stories about another 'marriage fraud' ring busted in the US media. I think it is important to remember that because of the way USCIS is structured - and the current corporate 'citizens' support for illegal immigration workers - these are easier for USCIS/DOS to address than the huge problem of illegally employed no status or out of status foreigners. As the news article quoted in the original post was on a foreign marriage fraud ring being busted, I addressed my response to the non-employment based immigration aspects of the immigration process and legislation.

If the US would ever get its act together and create a workable guest worker program that doesn't take forever to process it would help immensely. While it is fine to say pay farm workers and food factory workers decent wages and Americans would be willing to do the job, I still think there are some jobs Americans will not be willing to do even for a decent wage and benefits due to the necessary working conditions. Paying what would get them to put up with the lousy work environment would then make the cost of the food products so prohibitive that few would be willing or able to afford the product.. Since some of the jobs will require more than decent wages to get them done by Americans, there will always be room for a well-designed and well-run guest worker program, perhaps one that will allow an eventual pathway to residency and citizenship through a legal process. With this avenue more readily available it would then be easier to target employers who knowingly violate immigration employment laws and prosecute them. You want to make it easier for people to do things the legal way than the illegal way. Until that happens, though, politicians and agricultural industrialist employers are going to remain in bed together.

I appreciate yor thoughtful post Kathryn but it is still flawed and here is why...

Illegal workers are not hired because they are the BEST at anything, they are hired because they are the CHEAPEST at anything. they are the cheapest BECAUSE they are illegal. Make them LEGAL, by any means, and they lose their calling card of being CHEAP because now the employer has to document them and pay all the same fees and burdens trhat he does for an American worker PLUS deal with all sorts of other issues, not the least of which is language. An employer will be willing to accept that downside for CHEAP labor but not for market price labor. If he has to PAY ful price he wants full service.

So what will happen? No matter how many LEGAL work permits you issue there will always be more illegals to take the place of the now higher priced legal immigrants. UNLESS there is a huge punishment for hiring someione illegally and exploiting them. They are not hiring illegals because there is a shortage of labor! We already have 9% unemployment we do not need more unemployed LEGAL workers, we have plenty of those!

Any current illegal worker that is made "legal" will immediately find himself unemployed and replaced by another illegal worker for less money.

Perhaps you do not experience this, Kathryn, because you are a native English speaker. Even though you are Quebecoise it can be hard to tell a Canadian from an American (deal with it OK!) but take my wife, a LEGAL immigrant, highly educated with masters degrees in both Russian and English when she arrived and teacher certifications evaluated as equivilent to those in the USA. She was even granted a teachers certificate here in this state within a few months. But could not find a job. Why? Well, because they "preferred" someone that had a teaching degree from a US university to teach English. OK, so she gets a Masters degree HERE in Teaching English. (she figured that right off and was enrolled in the program before she arrived but figured she could also teach while in school) She now has TWO Masters degrees in teaching English, one in Teaching Russian, US and Ukrainian teaching certificates AND a GREEN CARD...and cannot get a job teaching! Fortunately she has made herself a good little business doing interpretations for hospitals, courts, legal aid, refugee assistance and the government. But she is self employed. THAT is what leagl immigrants deal with. The fact is that for the same money they get a native speaker teaching English. And the story is the same for highly educated professionals from other countries.

And I can tell you that it is the same in the construction business as that has been my career, not only here but in foreign countries and even in Canada (I am not sure that is a foreign country, it is closer than the next county in this state)

It is not a matter of being "made legal" it is a matter of employers avoiding the expenses of employing people legally by hiring illegals.

Fix that and all the illegals walk home themselves tomorrow.

[Kathryn41 3,205]

Yes, you're right. (about illegal employment practices, that is, not necessarily about Canada ). Part of the equation does have to be that those who do hire illegals are on the receiving end of punishments and sanctions. Right now it is the worker who is targeted (when they are), and not the employer. So, yes, make it less profitable for the employer to hire illegals than legals. Combine that with a workable guest worker programme (hey, I'm also Canadian, deal with the spelling ) and the enforced 'unprofitable' consequences for employers who violate the law and you would not make it worth while for either the employer or the employee to continue illegal employment.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I recently read an article that the US will reach a jobs tipping point in 2015 where work is likely imported. I believe one factor with this is fuel (with the exception of the speculative crash of 2008 fuel prices have been consistently rising for about 7-8 years now).

It may be a bit of a pipe dream, but I could see the US as a more dominant exporter both in terms of manufactered goods and a much smaller importer of energy by the end of this decade.

With regards to illegal immigrants, I thouroughly believe that employer enforcement would succeed with the exception of nomadic farm work. Those jobs could have pay as high as 20 USD and not attract workers. Here is where I agree with Kathyrn about a reformed guest worker program.

I am not against guest workers or other forms of LEGAL work, I am against ALL forms of illegal exploitation of humans. Obviously I have an immigrant wife and family I do not "hate immigrants" or immigration.

that said we can fix the problemof losing jobs with the FAIR TAX (please read the book Sousuke)

We demand good working conditions for our citizens and legal immigrants and we SHOULD, but this is also expensive to employers and we have to recognize that. Then we double down on stupidity and tax the living daylights out of the employers which simply gets passed along in price to us OR the work moves out of the country. You cannot conspire to beat employers over the head continuously and expect them to stay here.

the US has some huge advantages that other countries have great difficulty to compete with, logisitcs of location, infrastructure, 2nd to none in a country of this physical size, educated populace, good standard of living you name it. Employers WANT to be here, but if we tax them and expense them out of business they cannot stay. They retaiate, or I shoul dsay defend themselves by exporting manufacturing and using undocumented workers here for service jobs.

The FAIR TAX would eliminate the tax component of the equation, a BIG component, and make the US a a tax haven for business to employ people. This is not a problem with one answer, it is not even one problem, but several. FAIR TAX to bring back manufacturing and employer penalties to stop exploitation of humans. 1, 2 punch!

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Yes, you're right. (about illegal employment practices, that is, not necessarily about Canada ). Part of the equation does have to be that those who do hire illegals are on the receiving end of punishments and sanctions. Right now it is the worker who is targeted (when they are), and not the employer. So, yes, make it less profitable for the employer to hire illegals than legals. Combine that with a workable guest worker programme (hey, I'm also Canadian, deal with the spelling ) and the enforced 'unprofitable' consequences for employers who violate the law and you would not make it worth while for either the employer or the employee to continue illegal employment.

programme We have road signs here in English and Canadian, so I am used to it.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

programme (hey, I'm also Canadian, deal with the spelling ) .

Alla was taught "UK English" and often uses that form of spelling. We have had plenty of lively but mostly just fun poking debates over that. She even has her spellcheck set to "English/UK"

[Harsh_77 718]

Sorry Kathryn but the hoops we jump through are designed to limit legal immigrants and nothing else.

There is little effort to limit illegal immigration except window dressing. Illegal immigration and fraud could be largely eliminated tomorrow with a simple expedient of oppressive punishment for anyoe that hires an illegal immigrant and does not use E-verify to qualify them to work. Neither party will do it. Illegals are her for economic reasons and need to be discouraged with economic solutions.

BOTH political parties want illegal immigrants for cheap labor. They are modernslaves and nothing else.

Our politicians pass admirable laws to protect workers, give them benefits, minimum wage, worker safety laws, family and medical leave act, etc. and then look the other way as employers avoid all that by hiring undocumented workers that are not officially "here"

The politicians know how to fix the problem. But then Republicans would need to go to their business base and say "hey you guys are really going to have to pay for all these benefits and wage and hour laws we passed" and the Democrats would have to go to their base and say "sorry but there are not going to any more Hispanic illegals working here"

Americans WILL do these jobs if Americans are paid and treated as our laws require and the market dictates. Illegals are not hired because they are better roofers than Americans, they are hired because it is cheaper to hire them than pay the cost of employing legal workers and the risk is less than the benefit. Simple.

We just need to reverse that and the job is done.

You have hit the nail on head.....

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

You have hit the nail on head.....

It is SO simple no one can seem to comprehend it, or they do not want to.

Why are they here? To make money.

Why are they hired? To save money.

Seems a very workable relationship, and it is. It is also very easy to stop.

Will they be here if they can't make money? NO.

Will they be hired if the employers can't save money? NO.

Problem solved.

What else would this solve? 28 million Americans need jobs. I bet they could do THOSE jobs. Illegals are being exploited and being paid far lower wages than legal workers, that is discrimation based on race or nationality and thet is NOT OK.

Unless eome one here wants to say it is OK to pay lower wages based on race or nationality. Anyone?

It would solve the problem of these people being exploited and not earning a basic pension (SS) not paying into a future medical plan for themselves (medicare) not having benefits or even basic safe working conditions that we demand for other people.

It would solve the problem of all of us having to subsidize the profits of employers by oroviding educations and medical care for their illegal employees and their dependents.

These parasite companies are exploiting humans, throwing Americans out of work, causing US to have to pay for the benefits of their employees and pocketing all the CASH for themselves.

And WHY is this OK with anyone?

EMPLOYERS need to be punished so severely they would lose thir business and be required to sell their assets if they violated our wage and hour laws, tax laws, discrimanation laws. They need to be afraid to exploit an illegal alien for profit.

Please note I said "illegal". Immigrants and aliens with work authorization are NOT illegal, no one would be punished for hiring LEGAL workers.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Gary and Alla