Slightly sensitive Muslim topic re: Ramadan :) (ladies only please)

[Bosco 1]

You ablute before prayer. The idea is to pray/come before Allah in a clean state. We all know if you so much as belch or break wind you must ablute again and start prayer over. One can't willfully stop menustration to pray and then resume after. That was what I mean. (Well, I mean if someone actually could, that would be cool and they could write books about it and become rich and famous I suppose.)

I am assuming the same philosophy applies to the handling of the Holy Quran. You are not in a physically "clean" state.

This is only my understanding. It was never taught to me in terms of "ew icky woman thing... don't fast, don't pray, don't touch the quran."

Most scholar say that a woman with irregular bleeding is still allowed to pray. Also, runny noses and galactorrhea cannot necessarily be controlled. My point being, I find the application of the "rules" inconsistent. They keep us from practicing certain acts of faith but not others.

I have read arguments these were initially designed to be exemptions to make it easier on a woman, not prohibitions. They of course later turned into prohibitions.

[hollyw 0]

I'm curious about something. I'm wondering how you ladies feel about the implication that you are somehow "unclean" during your period. I know that personally I would have a hard time accepting that, given that it is such a natural and God-given gift. I don't mean to offend, I'm just trying to understand.

i have also had a hard time accepting this... when my husband and i were getting married we were going to the mosque to talk to the imam and my husband said "oh, but we can't go when you're sick.. we'll have to wait until next week." and i said... huh? i feel fine! and he said "well, we can't go when you're dirty" (i thought he meant cause i hadn't showered in a day ... or two... )..... i was totally clueless until he spelled it out for me.... and then i was pissed!

in the beginning it also hurt a lot to know that, during that time of the month, he thought of me as unclean and sick. i had grown up believing that it was totally natural and all of a sudden, to him, i was dirty and i couldn't go to the mosque or fast or pray or hold the Qu'ran (even, at that time, i didn't want to do most of those things... the thing that bothered was i COULDNT if i had WANTED to... ). so it was hard...

now i've basically come to terms with it, just like a lot of other things we've had to deal with. you adjust to each other's way of thinking just like everything else we have to adjust to. i learned not to get so pissed that he thought i was dirty and he learned not to refer to me as being dirty

[MrsAmera 41]

Desheela -- You're right about the 40 day cloistering (although my husband's sister had her baby and wasn't cloistered maybe just spent a lot of time at her moms getting help lol!) But my husband said that the sexual relations must cease for 40 days and I said "Well where did you get that? I want to know where that comes from." He said "I don't know that's just how it is" Which was not an adequate response for me. So (don't take this the wrong way ladies). Doctor's say it is best not to have intercourse in the last month of pregnancy because it can bring on pre-term labor, AND according to my lovely husband there is suppose to be no "relations" 40 days afterwards - that is over 2 months time!!!! Not that I really think I will be incredibly interested in any action after having a child but within a month odds are pretty good haha! I guess it just goes back to me not understand these prohabitions. I really want to know where the prohabitions for men are. When are they dirty? Only after having intercourse with a woman (or using the toilet - which is an insult in my opinion). Any other times? *feminist retreats to her cave*

[chris4336 3]

No, I believe men have to shower any time after they ejaculate...whether it is alone or with a women. I guess what comes out of them is "unclean" as well, only they don't have it for a week straight :-)

[ya falaha! 0]

With both my boys I bled for over a month so nearly 40 days. My follow up exam was 6 weeks after their birth which is 42 days so I'd say that's about right. We didn't have intercourse until I got the dr's ok..42 days after birth. I was A-Ok with that cuz I didn't really feel up to it anyways.

This is correct. Both men and women are considered unclean after intercourse or ejaculation in another way.

No, I believe men have to shower any time after they ejaculate...whether it is alone or with a women. I guess what comes out of them is "unclean" as well, only they don't have it for a week straight :-)

[Henia 11]

If you want to read Quran during your cycle you can always read it online. Alternatively you can read other books about Islam or hadith during your cycle.

I believe, personally, that it is wrong to touch the Quran during my cycle. But I agree that there are Islamic scholars who say otherwise. It just depends on who you agree with.

I agree with you Kara. I donnot touch the Qur'an when the red Mercedes rolls on in (hehe) but I do recite the Fatiha and make dua.Note: it is allowed for women to recite the Qur'an form her own memory.

And my opinion on reading and/or holding the Qur'an is based on the hadith: 'The menstruating woman and the one who is junub are not to read Qur'an.' This hadith is reported by Ibn `Umar. Among other things, there is a report attributed to the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) which states, “Neither those who are sexually defiled nor those who are menstruating shall read the Qur’an.”

Also I read Islamic information online and listen to the Qur'an. I was at one point in time, unsure about listening to the Qur'an when I was on my menses but then ask a imam so I got the dawaah for that elhamdullah. There is almost consensus among scholars that a woman in her period is allowed to touch, or carry, or use books on Islam, or works of tafsir (Qur’an exegesis) that may contain verses of the Qur’an. The only difference of opinion among authentic scholars is about touching or carrying or reading from the entire Qur’an itself. Although most scholars consider it haram (unlawful) for a woman to touch or carry the full Qur’an, many scholars have determined it permissible for those who are teachers or students.

To repeat: there is absolutely nothing wrong with a woman who is studying Islam to carry, or read, or touch books or works of tafsir, which contain verses of the Qur’an during menstruation.

Also I would like to add, there is nothing wrong with women attending Eid prayers, just as long as they donnot particpate in the actual praying. The signifance of this is meant for encouraging Muslims to gather at one time and share the blessings of the day of Eid.

There are those who hold the view that the women in state of menstruation are not permitted to enter and stay in the mosque compare menstruation with janabah (post-sexual impurity) as a major defilement. However, it is an established fact that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) lodged the poor emigrants in the mosque. They were known as the people of as-Suffah. Men may occasionally experience nocturnal emissions. Yet, we are not told anywhere that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) ever told them to get out of the mosque in such a state. So I believe this to be right also for women on their menses.

But Allah knows best.

[ya falaha! 0]

I agree, Henia. I have attended Eid prayers while I was on my cycle but did not participate. It was nice just being there with everyone and it made me feel included even though I couldn't pray.

Also I would like to add, there is nothing wrong with women attending Eid prayers, just as long as they donnot particpate in the actual praying. The signifance of this is meant for encouraging Muslims to gather at one time and share the blessings of the day of Eid.

[Henia 11]

I agree, Henia. I have attended Eid prayers while I was on my cycle but did not participate. It was nice just being there with everyone and it made me feel included even though I couldn't pray.

Also I would like to add, there is nothing wrong with women attending Eid prayers, just as long as they donnot particpate in the actual praying. The signifance of this is meant for encouraging Muslims to gather at one time and share the blessings of the day of Eid.

Also I have like to add, I totally disapprove of masjid who not allow and actually discourage women praying in the masjid. Yes, I mean you UK... Fortunately in the US we have the luxury of having women's areas to pray in. And elhamdullah while here in DZ, to many people's surprise I am praying Jumuaa every Friday and Tarawee nightly and sometimes when we are out other prayers in the masjid. The imaam was more then happy and welcoming me. So I have found by me, being a foreigner here practising my Islam (inchallah correctly) it is great dawaah for Muslims here, esp women who are very very lax in their religion.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I do pray, fast and read the Quran during menses. So do the other women in my family, but that is what happens when knowedgable (not feminist) Muslim women do their own studying and interpretation. They don't always come up with the same conclusions as do men.

BTW, women used to attend mosque during menses and pray as they squated over a bowl bleeding. Also, the entire issue is more complex than simply bleeding or not bleeding; there are degrees of bleeding, colors and consistancy of the blood to be considered. It's not as cut and dried as often presented to be.

Edited September 29, 2006 by szsz

[Henia 11]

I do pray, fast and read the Quran during menses. So do the other women in my family, but that is what happens when knowedgable (not feminist) Muslim women do their own studying and interpretation. They don't always come up with the same conclusions as do men.

BTW, women used to attend mosque during menses and pray as they squated over a bowl bleeding. Also, the entire issue is more complex than simply bleeding or not bleeding; there are degrees of bleeding, colors and consistancy of the blood to be considered. It's not as cut and dried as often presented to be.

Hmmm you have suras or hadiths to back it? What manual are you reading dear?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Hmmm you have suras or hadiths to back it? What manual are you reading dear?

What suras are there to say that we are allowed NOT to pray, fast or touch the Quran? The Prophet was the living Quran and he touched his wives when they were on their menses. I'm sure you are aware of the ayat that says we can use earth to clean ourselves, but how about the one that instructs Muslims in battle to take turns praying even as they fight? The circumstances for not praying or fasting are deliniated and menses is not among them. No where is ceding prayer or fasting made absolute.

Ahadith are intended to instruct us how to understand the Quran, so it must back up what the Quran says, not invent new prohibitions. So, I ask again, what in the Quran gives ahadith permission to instruct us not to pray or fast?

[deeshla 0]

I don't know why but the term "unclean" just doesn't bother me that much. There are so many other things out there I'm concerned about it and that just isn't big enough to worry about. I guess I'm not a feminist.

Feminism is simply the belief that women and men have equal rights, and the social movement thereof.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Thank God someone was a feminist, or you gals wouldn't have many of the rights you take for granted. Believe me, I came of age in the dark ages.

Edited September 30, 2006 by szsz

[deeshla 0]

Desheela -- You're right about the 40 day cloistering (although my husband's sister had her baby and wasn't cloistered maybe just spent a lot of time at her moms getting help lol!) But my husband said that the sexual relations must cease for 40 days and I said "Well where did you get that? I want to know where that comes from." He said "I don't know that's just how it is" Which was not an adequate response for me. So (don't take this the wrong way ladies). Doctor's say it is best not to have intercourse in the last month of pregnancy because it can bring on pre-term labor, AND according to my lovely husband there is suppose to be no "relations" 40 days afterwards - that is over 2 months time!!!! Not that I really think I will be incredibly interested in any action after having a child but within a month odds are pretty good haha! I guess it just goes back to me not understand these prohabitions. I really want to know where the prohabitions for men are. When are they dirty? Only after having intercourse with a woman (or using the toilet - which is an insult in my opinion). Any other times? *feminist retreats to her cave*

Thanks for clearing that up. I will ask my husband his take on this as well.

BUT I HAVE TO INTERJECT -- Sex in the last month of pregnancy is ABSOLUTELY FINE unless you have some condition or your waters have already broken (in which case, infection is a possibility), In fact sexual intercourse is thought to bring on a stalled labor -- the substances in semen soften the cervix and orgasm is good exercise for the uterus. Even if it is not needed for bringing on a late labor, hell -- we should get it while we can. Everything I have read (and according to my 2 midwives) says that sex cannot bring on pre-term labor unless you already have some sort of condition or are on bedrest. It is fine for a normal pregnancy.

Let me in at your feminist cave

[Henia 11]

Hmmm you have suras or hadiths to back it? What manual are you reading dear?

What suras are there to say that we are allowed NOT to pray, fast or touch the Quran? The Prophet was the living Quran and he touched his wives when they were on their menses. I'm sure you are aware of the ayat that says we can use earth to clean ourselves, but how about the one that instructs Muslims in battle to take turns praying even as they fight? The circumstances for not praying or fasting are deliniated and menses is not among them. No where is ceding prayer or fasting made absolute.

Ahadith are intended to instruct us how to understand the Quran, so it must back up what the Quran says, not invent new prohibitions. So, I ask again, what in the Quran gives ahadith permission to instruct us not to pray or fast?

Here we go again SZSZ teaching us Islam... hmm what round is this now?