Slightly sensitive Muslim topic re: Ramadan :) (ladies only please)

[deeshla 0]

I do pray, fast and read the Quran during menses. So do the other women in my family, but that is what happens when knowedgable (not feminist) Muslim women do their own studying and interpretation. They don't always come up with the same conclusions as do men.

BTW, women used to attend mosque during menses and pray as they squated over a bowl bleeding. Also, the entire issue is more complex than simply bleeding or not bleeding; there are degrees of bleeding, colors and consistancy of the blood to be considered. It's not as cut and dried as often presented to be.

Yay!

But why the comment about feminism? Why is everybody so afraid of feminism? Szsz, your posts are often about showing the reality of women's rights in Islam -- as opposed to the erroneous findings that are generally patriarchal interpretations. This is feminist!

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I have the right to have my say, henia. At least I don't lie about what I'm doing.

Edited September 30, 2006 by szsz

[Henia 11]

I have the right to have my say, henia. At least I don't lie about what I'm doing.

Yes you have every right, no one said you didnt... and about lying... what is that reference to madame?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

But why the comment about feminism? Why is everybody so afraid of feminism? Szsz, your posts are often about showing the reality of women's rights in Islam -- as opposed to the erroneous findings that are generally patriarchal interpretations. This is feminist!

Honey, this is why some of the converts here don't like me. They got their Muslima convert kits and the directions tell them to reject anything that's not in there as "western", "feminist", "kufr", "bida", or from Shaytan. The reason why Henia didn't answer me with something from the Quran is because she can't, but she can insult me; that comes easy, even at Ramadan.

[Jenn! 918]

Well, I am glad to learn at least that this is not a black and white issue. I have trouble when there is no grey.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

There is lots of grey in Islam.

[jordanianprincess 0]

There is lots of grey in Islam.

There is lots of grey in every Religion, its all about interpretation.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Yep!

[Henia 11]

But why the comment about feminism? Why is everybody so afraid of feminism? Szsz, your posts are often about showing the reality of women's rights in Islam -- as opposed to the erroneous findings that are generally patriarchal interpretations. This is feminist!

Honey, this is why some of the converts here don't like me. They got their Muslima convert kits and the directions tell them to reject anything that's not in there as "western", "feminist", "kufr", "bida", or from Shaytan. The reason why Henia didn't answer me with something from the Quran is because she can't, but she can insult me; that comes easy, even at Ramadan.

Excuse me madame I have never insulted you and yes it is Ramadan, so I am especially not going to insult anyone ...I merely asked you what proves you have of this? That is MY right to ask that...before I believe anything Madame..and it is also MY right to ask YOU who you were calling a lier?

And I am not here to like or dislike you. Or judge you in anyway...I am here for pleasure and service of my Rabb.

Also everyone can see one thing, that be a idea or object millions of different ways unfortunately.

And as far not replying to your post ASAP I do have a life Szsz and a husband... so my every waking moment is not front of this screen.

The term feminism was coined in France in the 1880s by Hubertine Auclert, who introduced it in her journal, La Citoyenne, to criticise male predominance (and domination) and to make claims for women's rights and emancipation promised by the French Revolution.

Before examining the issues raised by feminists, I believe that we need to ask ‘What is the nature of Islam?’ At the beginning Islam was the most revolutionary liberalization of women's rights the civilized world has ever seenBut unfortunaley afterwards Muslims became ignorant of this and now Muslim countries are the scene of some of the worst abuses of women's rights. As the Latin proverb says, "Corruptio optimi pessima" (When the best is corrupted, it becomes the worst). The Qur’an expresses the same theme in Sûrat al-Tîn: "We created man in the best pattern, and later reduced him to the lowest of the low."

Islamic feminism is both highly contested and firmly embraced by both men and women worldwide.

I have noticed in forums over and over that if Muslims call attention to systemic injustice against women in Muslim countries, they are likely to get attacked and accused of supporting kufr against Islam.And in fact, here in this forum it seems I am grouped into this category by some. It is sad that much of what passes for "Islam" these days is nothing more than mindless jingo flag-waving with no attention to the actual content of what Islam requires of us. Inna Allâha ya’muru bi-al-‘adli wa-al-ihsân "Allah commands justice and the doing of good."

The Quran forms the basis of family law, and is regarded as the literal and unmitigated word of God, untainted by any human interpretation, including the prophet himself. Being beyond reproach, Quranic regulations regarding women are followed with great strictness.

While before revealing the Quran,women were understood as inferior, Pr. Muhammad (saw) was convinced that men and women were equal before God. Both sexes had an equal responsibility to submit to God and the opportunity to receive salvation.After the Prophet's death the condition of women in Islam began to decline and revert back to pre-Islamic norms.

I thought my reply will suffice.

Allahu Allem

The Prophet, peace be upon him, loved women. How horrified he would be to see the wretched way so many in his ummah have been mistreating them.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Excuse me madame I have never insulted you and yes it is Ramadan, so I am especially not going to insult anyone ...I merely asked you what proves you have of this? That is MY right to ask that...before I believe anything Madame..and it is also MY right to ask YOU who you were calling a lier?

Here we go again SZSZ teaching us Islam... hmm what round is this now?

I'm sure this was meant as a simple hello. When you start pulling out the "dears" and "madames", I'm not getting the warm and fuzzies from you, sweetie.

And I am not here to like or dislike you. Or judge you in anyway...I am here for pleasure and service of my Rabb.

If you see something about me to judge on the basis of good and evil , please feel free to do so. I guaranteee you I will. And you have no monopoly on existing for the pleasure and service of the Rabb.

Also everyone can see one thing, that be a idea or object millions of different ways unfortunately.

And that is why you greeted my comments with such objectivity.

And as far not replying to your post ASAP I do have a life Szsz and a husband... so my every waking moment is not front of this screen.

So you say. I was not holding my breath waiting. As expected, you cannot find your own words to express your own thinking, you have to cut and paste, this time from here:

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2002/569/cu1.htm

BTW, I happen to know Margot Badran. She is a fine writer, but I'm sure she didn't pen the Quran, which is where I asked for you to present your proof.

I have noticed in forums over and over that if Muslims call attention to systemic injustice against women in Muslim countries, they are likely to get attacked and accused of supporting kufr against Islam.And in fact, here in this forum it seems I am grouped into this category by some. It is sad that much of what passes for "Islam" these days is nothing more than mindless jingo flag-waving with no attention to the actual content of what Islam requires of us. Inna Allâha ya’muru bi-al-‘adli wa-al-ihsân "Allah commands justice and the doing of good."

Exactly what I have been saying all along.

The Quran forms the basis of family law, and is regarded as the literal and unmitigated word of God, untainted by any human interpretation, including the prophet himself. Being beyond reproach, Quranic regulations regarding women are followed with great strictness.

Understood. So, where in it is the prohibition against woman praying, fasting or touching the Quran during menses?

While before revealing the Quran,women were understood as inferior, Pr. Muhammad (saw) was convinced that men and women were equal before God. Both sexes had an equal responsibility to submit to God and the opportunity to receive salvation.After the Prophet's death the condition of women in Islam began to decline and revert back to pre-Islamic norms.

And women, educated in their deen, will receive salvation in their efforts to revive the Prophetic model and move the ummah toward Allah's Intent, not away from it by unquestioning following men who claim to speak in His Name as they create new restrictions that contradict God's Word.

4.95 Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath God promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-

Edited September 30, 2006 by szsz

[soul_encounter 0]

Well, I am glad to learn at least that this is not a black and white issue. I have trouble when there is no grey.

Interesting topic and posts all. I am not muslim, and have no substantial knowledge of Quran to base these ponderings on, but while reading your posts and ideas, another perspective on "why" these things may not have been allowed occured to me. One which you ladies with a more "feminist" view may appreciate. In the time when all these laws on what is and is not allowed were set forth, paganism was still very ingrained in the thinking and day to day superstitions of the people. Women, were the ultimate "creators" being the ones to carry and create new life. It is believed in many religions, that during a womans cycle she is extremely powerful and her thoughts will manifest much more readily and easily. Perhaps this was a way of balancing the scales of equality in the male favor during that time as the woman was already thought to be in a heightened state of spiritual power. Also, many forms of mysticism teach the initiate to take caution during times of "altered senses" (menstration being one of those) when observing certain meditations, spiritual exercises or even reading spiritual content for which ones mind may not be ready to take in. Knowledge is power and under certain altered states, spiritual doorways may be opened for which one may or may not be prepared to handle. Certainly we have all heard stories of dementia occuring in those who pushed their minds to great genius in their lives.

I am in no way saying this "IS" the reason ladies, so hopefully no one is offended here... Merely just some alternative thoughts. As someone here said, there are reasons for which God knows beyond our understanding.

[noura 0]

Well, I am glad to learn at least that this is not a black and white issue. I have trouble when there is no grey.

Interesting topic and posts all. I am not muslim, and have no substantial knowledge of Quran to base these ponderings on, but while reading your posts and ideas, another perspective on "why" these things may not have been allowed occured to me. One which you ladies with a more "feminist" view may appreciate. In the time when all these laws on what is and is not allowed were set forth, paganism was still very ingrained in the thinking and day to day superstitions of the people. Women, were the ultimate "creators" being the ones to carry and create new life. It is believed in many religions, that during a womans cycle she is extremely powerful and her thoughts will manifest much more readily and easily. Perhaps this was a way of balancing the scales of equality in the male favor during that time as the woman was already thought to be in a heightened state of spiritual power. Also, many forms of mysticism teach the initiate to take caution during times of "altered senses" (menstration being one of those) when observing certain meditations, spiritual exercises or even reading spiritual content for which ones mind may not be ready to take in. Knowledge is power and under certain altered states, spiritual doorways may be opened for which one may or may not be prepared to handle. Certainly we have all heard stories of dementia occuring in those who pushed their minds to great genius in their lives.

I am in no way saying this "IS" the reason ladies, so hopefully no one is offended here... Merely just some alternative thoughts. As someone here said, there are reasons for which God knows beyond our understanding.

I like this thought....

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Considering that the source for this is unprotected ahadith, your contribution may be a factor in the reasoning of men. Couple that with the inability to find a link with the divine Quran to support the ahadith, one has to realize that any rulings that promote a prohibition against women praying, fasting or touching the Quran during menses as one from God is on shaky ground, at best.

So many restrictions against women are the result of reasoning that could go more than one way, but so often, are taken to the most conservative, restrictive and unIslamic extreme. When you have a Holy Book that tells you to pray everyday, many times a day, that this is a major pillar of your faith, that you are to do it even if you can only find dirt to clean yourself, that you must pray even when in bloody battle, how do you justify not doing it if you are a practicing Muslim?

Allah allows us mercy if we are sick, so if your menses makes you sick, you can be excused from prayer. Yet menstruation is not a sickness in and of itself. The Quran says one thing about what cannot be done during menses, and that is sexual intercourse (Q 2:22), not prayer. From that, it has been extrapolated that women are unclean and in a state of spiritual impurity. But our bodies are God's design; did He design them to be spiritually unpure so as to be unfit to communicate with Him for what would amount to years out of our lives when you add up all the days you don't pray until you die? Are women designed to be lesser Muslims because we cannot follow His commands fully due to our God-given biology?

When you stand before Him on the Last Day, will you tell Him that you didn't pray for all those years because you gave someone other than He the power to stop you, and you didn't even think to question him to determine for yourself whether he was right? You didn't even need to be convinced, you just believed him? Unquestioningly accepting a claim from mortals that goes against God's Word is equating that mortal with God, so it must be examined. I am not saying believe me, I am only a humble servant of God with no claim of authority. All authority rests in Allah, and no Muslim, no matter how exalted, can exert a claim that cannot be tested, including ones that rest on tradition. Even the Prophet was warned of His wrath should he exceed God's Limits.

18:26 Say: "God knows best how long they stayed: With Him is the knowledge of the secrets of the heavens and the earth: how clearly He sees, how finely He hears everything! They have no protector other than Him; nor does He share His Command with any person whatsoever.

12: 39-40 O my two companions of the prison! I ask you: are many lords differing among themselves better, or the One God, Supreme and Irresistible? If not Him, you worship nothing but names which you have named, you and your fathers, for which God has sent down no authority: The command is for none but God. He has commanded that you worship none but Him: That is the right religion, but most men understand not...

69:43-52 This is a Message sent down from the Lord of the Worlds. And if the apostle were to invent any sayings in Our name, We should certainly seize him by his right hand, And We should certainly then cut off the artery of his heart: Nor could any of you withhold him from Our wrath. But verily this is a Message for the God-fearing. And We certainly know that there are among you those that reject it. But truly Revelation is a cause of sorrow for the Unbelievers. But verily it is Truth of assured certainty. So glorify the name of your Lord Most High.

Some of you may shun me because you mistakenly believe that I seek to guide you. I am an old school Muslim who knows that the allowance to queston is something that new Muslims have been incorrectly warned against in an attempt for some to gain exclusive control of what was for hundreds of year a diverse community. All I ask of you to learn for yourself, and if you disagree with me, fine, but do not be lead blindly in your journey, for Allah has offered the Message to us all, not to a few who tell all others what to do.

[Together4ever 1]

Considering that the source for this is unprotected ahadith, your contribution may be a factor in the reasoning of men. Couple that with the inability to find a link with the divine Quran to support the ahadith, one has to realize that any rulings that promote a prohibition against women praying, fasting or touching the Quran during menses as one from God is on shaky ground, at best.

So many restrictions against women are the result of reasoning that could go more than one way, but so often, are taken to the most conservative, restrictive and unIslamic extreme. When you have a Holy Book that tells you to pray everyday, many times a day, that this is a major pillar of your faith, that you are to do it even if you can only find dirt to clean yourself, that you must pray even when in bloody battle, how do you justify not doing it if you are a practicing Muslim?

Allah allows us mercy if we are sick, so if your menses makes you sick, you can be excused from prayer. Yet menstruation is not a sickness in and of itself. The Quran says one thing about what cannot be done during menses, and that is sexual intercourse (Q 2:22), not prayer. From that, it has been extrapolated that women are unclean and in a state of spiritual impurity. But our bodies are God's design; did He design them to be spiritually unpure so as to be unfit to communicate with Him for what would amount to years out of our lives when you add up all the days you don't pray until you die? Are women designed to be lesser Muslims because we cannot follow His commands fully due to our God-given biology?

When you stand before Him on the Last Day, will you tell Him that you didn't pray for all those years because you gave someone other than He the power to stop you, and you didn't even think to question him to determine for yourself whether he was right? You didn't even need to be convinced, you just believed him? Unquestioningly accepting a claim from mortals that goes against God's Word is equating that mortal with God, so it must be examined. I am not saying believe me, I am only a humble servant of God with no claim of authority. All authority rests in Allah, and no Muslim, no matter how exalted, can exert a claim that cannot be tested, including ones that rest on tradition. Even the Prophet was warned of His wrath should he exceed God's Limits.

18:26 Say: "God knows best how long they stayed: With Him is the knowledge of the secrets of the heavens and the earth: how clearly He sees, how finely He hears everything! They have no protector other than Him; nor does He share His Command with any person whatsoever.

12: 39-40 O my two companions of the prison! I ask you: are many lords differing among themselves better, or the One God, Supreme and Irresistible? If not Him, you worship nothing but names which you have named, you and your fathers, for which God has sent down no authority: The command is for none but God. He has commanded that you worship none but Him: That is the right religion, but most men understand not...

69:43-52 This is a Message sent down from the Lord of the Worlds. And if the apostle were to invent any sayings in Our name, We should certainly seize him by his right hand, And We should certainly then cut off the artery of his heart: Nor could any of you withhold him from Our wrath. But verily this is a Message for the God-fearing. And We certainly know that there are among you those that reject it. But truly Revelation is a cause of sorrow for the Unbelievers. But verily it is Truth of assured certainty. So glorify the name of your Lord Most High.

Some of you may shun me because you mistakenly believe that I seek to guide you. I am an old school Muslim who knows that the allowance to queston is something that new Muslims have been incorrectly warned against in an attempt for some to gain exclusive control of what was for hundreds of year a diverse community. All I ask of you to learn for yourself, and if you disagree with me, fine, but do not be lead blindly in your journey, for Allah has offered the Message to us all, not to a few who tell all others what to do.

... some "new Muslims" also get insulted, ridiculed and bashed by "old school Muslims" for questioning or daring to open to new interpretations... the world is full of ironies which is why its best not to walk behind another human's opinions and to form your own. Fire away.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

... some "new Muslims" also get insulted, ridiculed and bashed by "old school Muslims" for questioning or daring to open to new interpretations... the world is full of ironies which is why its best not to walk behind another human's opinions and to form your own. Fire away.

True, and it happens to old school Muslims too. The real irony is that many concepts considered to be "new" interpretations are not new at all, just ones that are not favored by those who seek to turn Islam into a monolithic, one size fits what they want, faith, which it has never been before. Terrorism is not just about cowardly bombings, planes flown into buildings, and forced conversions, it's also about the murder of ideas.

Edited September 30, 2006 by szsz