Slightly sensitive Muslim topic re: Ramadan :) (ladies only please)

[Henia 11]

Considering that the source for this is unprotected ahadith, your contribution may be a factor in the reasoning of men. Couple that with the inability to find a link with the divine Quran to support the ahadith, one has to realize that any rulings that promote a prohibition against women praying, fasting or touching the Quran during menses as one from God is on shaky ground, at best.

So many restrictions against women are the result of reasoning that could go more than one way, but so often, are taken to the most conservative, restrictive and unIslamic extreme. When you have a Holy Book that tells you to pray everyday, many times a day, that this is a major pillar of your faith, that you are to do it even if you can only find dirt to clean yourself, that you must pray even when in bloody battle, how do you justify not doing it if you are a practicing Muslim?

Allah allows us mercy if we are sick, so if your menses makes you sick, you can be excused from prayer. Yet menstruation is not a sickness in and of itself. The Quran says one thing about what cannot be done during menses, and that is sexual intercourse (Q 2:22), not prayer. From that, it has been extrapolated that women are unclean and in a state of spiritual impurity. But our bodies are God's design; did He design them to be spiritually unpure so as to be unfit to communicate with Him for what would amount to years out of our lives when you add up all the days you don't pray until you die? Are women designed to be lesser Muslims because we cannot follow His commands fully due to our God-given biology?

When you stand before Him on the Last Day, will you tell Him that you didn't pray for all those years because you gave someone other than He the power to stop you, and you didn't even think to question him to determine for yourself whether he was right? You didn't even need to be convinced, you just believed him? Unquestioningly accepting a claim from mortals that goes against God's Word is equating that mortal with God, so it must be examined. I am not saying believe me, I am only a humble servant of God with no claim of authority. All authority rests in Allah, and no Muslim, no matter how exalted, can exert a claim that cannot be tested, including ones that rest on tradition. Even the Prophet was warned of His wrath should he exceed God's Limits.

18:26 Say: "God knows best how long they stayed: With Him is the knowledge of the secrets of the heavens and the earth: how clearly He sees, how finely He hears everything! They have no protector other than Him; nor does He share His Command with any person whatsoever.

12: 39-40 O my two companions of the prison! I ask you: are many lords differing among themselves better, or the One God, Supreme and Irresistible? If not Him, you worship nothing but names which you have named, you and your fathers, for which God has sent down no authority: The command is for none but God. He has commanded that you worship none but Him: That is the right religion, but most men understand not...

69:43-52 This is a Message sent down from the Lord of the Worlds. And if the apostle were to invent any sayings in Our name, We should certainly seize him by his right hand, And We should certainly then cut off the artery of his heart: Nor could any of you withhold him from Our wrath. But verily this is a Message for the God-fearing. And We certainly know that there are among you those that reject it. But truly Revelation is a cause of sorrow for the Unbelievers. But verily it is Truth of assured certainty. So glorify the name of your Lord Most High.

Some of you may shun me because you mistakenly believe that I seek to guide you. I am an old school Muslim who knows that the allowance to queston is something that new Muslims have been incorrectly warned against in an attempt for some to gain exclusive control of what was for hundreds of year a diverse community. All I ask of you to learn for yourself, and if you disagree with me, fine, but do not be lead blindly in your journey, for Allah has offered the Message to us all, not to a few who tell all others what to do.

... some "new Muslims" also get insulted, ridiculed and bashed by "old school Muslims" for questioning or daring to open to new interpretations... the world is full of ironies which is why its best not to walk behind another human's opinions and to form your own. Fire away.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

... some "new Muslims" also get insulted, ridiculed and bashed by "old school Muslims" for questioning or daring to open to new interpretations... the world is full of ironies which is why its best not to walk behind another human's opinions and to form your own. Fire away.

I agree with Jean. Form your own view (hopefully based on study and accumulated knowledge, not simply what your SO likes or what makes you feel good). Yet, how many do this? And, if they do, why am I most often bashed for expressing a view that is different from the groupthink view? What I see is convention being unexamined and unquestioningly defended by most of the converts on this board. I don't see much scholarship that provides a basis for forming or supporting one's own view, unless cut and paste is considered to be scholarship.

Just an observation not intended as a put down.

Edited September 30, 2006 by szsz

[Visa4habibi! 0]

Desheela -- You're right about the 40 day cloistering (although my husband's sister had her baby and wasn't cloistered maybe just spent a lot of time at her moms getting help lol!) But my husband said that the sexual relations must cease for 40 days and I said "Well where did you get that? I want to know where that comes from." He said "I don't know that's just how it is" Which was not an adequate response for me. So (don't take this the wrong way ladies). Doctor's say it is best not to have intercourse in the last month of pregnancy because it can bring on pre-term labor, AND according to my lovely husband there is suppose to be no "relations" 40 days afterwards - that is over 2 months time!!!! Not that I really think I will be incredibly interested in any action after having a child but within a month odds are pretty good haha! I guess it just goes back to me not understand these prohabitions. I really want to know where the prohabitions for men are. When are they dirty? Only after having intercourse with a woman (or using the toilet - which is an insult in my opinion). Any other times? *feminist retreats to her cave*

-this is just hilarious! I love that you compared us, women with toilets!

I know it hurts at the same time, but still... it's funny!

[coolred38 0]

Salam to all

I realize this in an old topic but felt compelled to respond.

One of the first things I learned from God is the reason for our creation....to worship God and nothing else. Prayer is so important that there are very few reasons given as to why we might DELAY the prayer...but absolutely no reasons are given as to why we might abstain from it all together. God tells us to pray while in battle, to shorten the prayer if travelling, if we sleep to pray when we wake....if we have sex or go to the toilet etc...wash up first then pray....prayer is a pillar of Islam...prayer is the base on which our beliefs are built on....how could we then turn around and say that a woman on her period has been given "time off" cause she is unclean during her menustration? I find it interesting that if God can use the word "menustration" when referring to not having sex while on it....why couldnt God have clearly used that same word when referring to prayer and what nullifies it? At no time does God consider a womans monthly cycle as an excuse to either not pray or not fast....wouldnt it be something you think worth mentioning if our whole purpose of creation is to worship God and nothing else and that God gives us reasons in which we might DELAY the prayer but tells us to make up those prayers as soon as possible....dont you think if women were ordered to STOP praying while on their period....stop worshipping God for one week(or more) for every month of every year of their lives(thats a lot of missed prayers) that God would have left us in no doubt as to its standing?

I also find it interesting that while a woman on her period during Ramadan is told to forgo both the fast and the prayer....only the fast is "required" to be made up at a later date....meanwhile prayers are not. But we were created to pray everyday of our lives(when we come of age) without "excuse" really...God tells us again and again to hold fast to your prayer....one who leaves prayer has lost a firm grip on his religion...etc....yet women are told to give up prayer and most dont think twice about it. Menustration is a biological action of your body...the body that God created...it is a perfect form as mentioned in the Quran....it does exactly what God created it to do...and for women that means having a monthly cycle(most of us)....so how can your body doing what its supposed to do be considered "unclean". Every other thing that we do with our bodies...sex, toilet, sleep etc can be "washed away" and then you can stand and pray....why not the same with your period? Go wash up, do wudu, stand and pray...whats the difference?

Most importantly, our prophet had no authority to make orders not sanctioned by God....only God could make something haram or halal...our prophet was rebuked by God in the Quran for trying to do so (honey story)....so how is it we gave the prophet (supposedly) authority to forbid women to pray and fast while on their periods? How could God leave such a fundamental aspect of our belief...of our practice out of the Quran and leave it for the prophet to explain....? The Quran is complete and perfect, nothing left out of it....hadeeth(if you like them) only explain whats all ready in the Quran...but they should never ever add what has no basis in the Quran...there is no basis for giving up prayer for any reason....God doesnt give us even one excuse for giving up prayer...for men or women. Who or what are you gonna believe......the perfect unchanging Quran....or the contradictory man made hadeeth when your very soul on Judgement Day is at stake...? Just a thought.

Dont want to ruffle feathers....just want to add my thoughts on it. Take care

[doodlebug 3]

Salam to all

I realize this in an old topic but felt compelled to respond.

One of the first things I learned from God is the reason for our creation....to worship God and nothing else. Prayer is so important that there are very few reasons given as to why we might DELAY the prayer...but absolutely no reasons are given as to why we might abstain from it all together. God tells us to pray while in battle, to shorten the prayer if travelling, if we sleep to pray when we wake....if we have sex or go to the toilet etc...wash up first then pray....prayer is a pillar of Islam...prayer is the base on which our beliefs are built on....how could we then turn around and say that a woman on her period has been given "time off" cause she is unclean during her menustration? I find it interesting that if God can use the word "menustration" when referring to not having sex while on it....why couldnt God have clearly used that same word when referring to prayer and what nullifies it? At no time does God consider a womans monthly cycle as an excuse to either not pray or not fast....wouldnt it be something you think worth mentioning if our whole purpose of creation is to worship God and nothing else and that God gives us reasons in which we might DELAY the prayer but tells us to make up those prayers as soon as possible....dont you think if women were ordered to STOP praying while on their period....stop worshipping God for one week(or more) for every month of every year of their lives(thats a lot of missed prayers) that God would have left us in no doubt as to its standing?

I also find it interesting that while a woman on her period during Ramadan is told to forgo both the fast and the prayer....only the fast is "required" to be made up at a later date....meanwhile prayers are not. But we were created to pray everyday of our lives(when we come of age) without "excuse" really...God tells us again and again to hold fast to your prayer....one who leaves prayer has lost a firm grip on his religion...etc....yet women are told to give up prayer and most dont think twice about it. Menustration is a biological action of your body...the body that God created...it is a perfect form as mentioned in the Quran....it does exactly what God created it to do...and for women that means having a monthly cycle(most of us)....so how can your body doing what its supposed to do be considered "unclean". Every other thing that we do with our bodies...sex, toilet, sleep etc can be "washed away" and then you can stand and pray....why not the same with your period? Go wash up, do wudu, stand and pray...whats the difference?

Most importantly, our prophet had no authority to make orders not sanctioned by God....only God could make something haram or halal...our prophet was rebuked by God in the Quran for trying to do so (honey story)....so how is it we gave the prophet (supposedly) authority to forbid women to pray and fast while on their periods? How could God leave such a fundamental aspect of our belief...of our practice out of the Quran and leave it for the prophet to explain....? The Quran is complete and perfect, nothing left out of it....hadeeth(if you like them) only explain whats all ready in the Quran...but they should never ever add what has no basis in the Quran...there is no basis for giving up prayer for any reason....God doesnt give us even one excuse for giving up prayer...for men or women. Who or what are you gonna believe......the perfect unchanging Quran....or the contradictory man made hadeeth when your very soul on Judgement Day is at stake...? Just a thought.

Dont want to ruffle feathers....just want to add my thoughts on it. Take care

Funny how you picked my thread to dig up.

[Ban Hammer 12,836]

Funny how you picked my thread to dig up.

sniff sniff......i smell denmark.

[mybackpages 0]

I'm curious about something. I'm wondering how you ladies feel about the implication that you are somehow "unclean" during your period. I know that personally I would have a hard time accepting that, given that it is such a natural and God-given gift. I don't mean to offend, I'm just trying to understand.

I think its a great question. There is a school of thought- a minority opinion for sure, that holds prayers are acceptable during the peiod. I am not sure how I feel about it, but i am reading and thinking it through.

I do know for sure that the idea that women are "unclean" is not the intention and something that has creeped into Islamic thought. For example , it can't be about uncleaniliess when you can use dirt/sand to perform ablution when there is no water. And passing gas is enough to make wudu before prayer, but when making wudu no one cleans their #######...so again its not about cleaniless exactly.

The flow of blood can break anyone's "cleaniness" for prayer. I remember reading something that seemed so simple but was insightful. A man cuts his arm- until the blood is stopped from flowing and he washes he can nto say prayer, but a man who has some internal bleeding does not become impure. So If a woman is on her cycle but she is not flowing outwardly...well..you get the gist.

[coolred38 0]

Doodlebug

Why is it funny? I mentioned that I felt compelled to reply...as a Muslim I do believe that spreading information is vital to a better understanding of our deen. I didnt tell anyone they must believe as I do....I just put some information out there. Nothing funny about it...I will go and find some other threads and reply to them too just so the funny aspect doesnt get narrowed down to just this thread... Its a nice thread anyway....always interesting to see how others think and how they formulated their opinions about things. Thanks for the feed back too

[Bint Halawa 0]

It's not that women are "unclean" during their menstrual cycle. They are just excused from fasting and praying. Men can kiss their wives, and embrace them, sleep with them, everything as normal, except no intercourse. Women who have their periods can attend the Eid Prayers.

In AD 570 women did not have the sanitary products we have now and menstration was a much messier event. However Muslim women are not segregated from their families during menstration like Orthodox Judaism requires. In meeting with Jewish women they were shocked to hear how "normal" life is for us Muslim women during menses.

Karima

I'm curious about something. I'm wondering how you ladies feel about the implication that you are somehow "unclean" during your period. I know that personally I would have a hard time accepting that, given that it is such a natural and God-given gift. I don't mean to offend, I'm just trying to understand.

Edited September 25, 2007 by Bint Halawa

[polarbear 0]

Thankyou for reviving this thread It is something I have been wandering about lately. Especially because my menses will start any day now