ethical dilemma

[MamaAsiya 8]

Oftentimes it helps to view something from a different prospective.

You want to save a dog. Instead of adopting one that comes with papers and has gone through proper training, you go to a shelter where they only have aggressive dogs that are basically unadoptable.

You find one you like, it looks at you with his puppy eyes, wags his tail. You take him home and treat him like a favorite child. A while later this dog bites you severely, leaves deep wounds under your skin, and after having a specialist take a closer look, you find out that this dog has indeed a history of aggression, so you picked an aggressive dog from a pool of aggressive dogs.

Surprise!

You let the dog go but now it roams the neighborhood, bites people, children, then hides again in the bushes, only waiting for the next opportunity and victim. Do you have a moral obligation to warn other people that the dog you freed is ready to attack at any time, or should you feel sorry for yourself instead?

Guess that's a question you have to answer.

Just Bob: This strikes me as ethnocentric. Is it your belief that no USC should marry anyone one from a high-fraud-risk country? There are plenty of people in other countries who have had "proper training" and there are plenty of "aggressive" and "unadoptable" people here. Manipulation and deceit are human characteristics that are not confined by borders. Your analogy assumes she should have known how to distinguish different "dogs" from the beginning. This is unreasonable given the frequency of marriage fraud, abuse, etc. OP appears to be the victim of a crime. While it is a natural psychological response to blame the victim, it is extremely unfair.

OP: I agree with the other posts. I think it is worthwhile to contact USCIS. You seem to be a very rational person. The fact he specifically mentioned his sister getting married for papers is significant information. USCIS works with the information they can get - it doesn't have to be a concrete argument. Who knows how they will respond but I think it is worth your time. I wish you the best.

Edited September 22, 2011 by MamaAsiya

[Tahoma 2,291]

Oftentimes it helps to view something from a different prospective.

You want to save a dog. Instead of adopting one that comes with papers and has gone through proper training, you go to a shelter where they only have aggressive dogs that are basically unadoptable.

You find one you like, it looks at you with his puppy eyes, wags his tail. You take him home and treat him like a favorite child. A while later this dog bites you severely, leaves deep wounds under your skin, and after having a specialist take a closer look, you find out that this dog has indeed a history of aggression, so you picked an aggressive dog from a pool of aggressive dogs.

Surprise!

You let the dog go but now it roams the neighborhood, bites people, children, then hides again in the bushes, only waiting for the next opportunity and victim. Do you have a moral obligation to warn other people that the dog you freed is ready to attack at any time, or should you feel sorry for yourself instead?

Guess that's a question you have to answer.

Huh?!?

You can't find a good dog at a shelter?!?

A dog that needs training can't be trained?!?

You can somehow magically "find out" that your dog has a history of aggression?!?

You would turn the dog loose in the neighborhood after it bit you?!?

Sheesh...

[misterbigtoe 45]

Just Bob: This strikes me as ethnocentric. Is it your belief that no USC should marry anyone one from a high-fraud-risk country? There are plenty of people in other countries who have had "proper training" and there are plenty of "aggressive" and "unadoptable" people here. Manipulation and deceit are human characteristics that are not confined by borders. Your analogy assumes she should have known how to distinguish different "dogs" from the beginning. This is unreasonable given the frequency of marriage fraud, abuse, etc. OP appears to be the victim of a crime. While it is a natural psychological response to blame the victim, it is extremely unfair.

OP: I agree with the other posts. I think it is worthwhile to contact USCIS. You seem to be a very rational person. The fact he specifically mentioned his sister getting married for papers is significant information. USCIS works with the information they can get - it doesn't have to be a concrete argument. Who knows how they will respond but I think it is worth your time. I wish you the best.

Bob is pretty well known here for nailing things with not so gentle verbage.

Point was valid that as the USC, OP has a responsibility to follow up with the authorities as it was her efforts that brought an undesirable into the country. Who can say what his intent was to abuse the immigration system..........economic, ......political? Obviously he was deceitful, country of origin has nothing to do with that...........plenty of folks like that are born here that i would be only too happy to have immigrate out of the US, so there is no ethnocentric component to Bob's position.

I feel a great deal of empathy for the OP as all of us put ourselves in the same position of trust with our significant other. She was unfortunately deceived by a sociopath as were the authorities. She is now aware of this fact and the authorities should be made aware of the facts so that they can better perform their function in the future and possibly mitigate whatever harm the immigrant is capable of.

[Fandango 1,439]

Bob is pretty well known here for nailing things with not so gentle verbage.

Point was valid that as the USC, OP has a responsibility to follow up with the authorities as it was her efforts that brought an undesirable into the country. Who can say what his intent was to abuse the immigration system..........economic, ......political? Obviously he was deceitful, country of origin has nothing to do with that...........plenty of folks like that are born here that i would be only too happy to have immigrate out of the US, so there is no ethnocentric component to Bob's position.

I feel a great deal of empathy for the OP as all of us put ourselves in the same position of trust with our significant other. She was unfortunately deceived by a sociopath as were the authorities. She is now aware of this fact and the authorities should be made aware of the facts so that they can better perform their function in the future and possibly mitigate whatever harm the immigrant is capable of.

OP said she wasn't even sure whether she was used for benefits or not, so obviously there's no 'smoking gun'. Calling her ex a sociopath is a bit OTT.

[morocco4ever 63]

You've said what I've been thinking all day, about what would happen if she was denied and a lawyer put in a FOIA request. have no real proof beyond, as you said, an old conversation and patterns within the family. I don't even know whether she'll go through with the marriage. She's very attached to her mom.

I'm going to watch and wait for now. Their surname is very uncommon here. If the government chooses to investigate, it won't be difficult, though I don't think he's kept up with his change of address. I have kept up with mine. I think they can probably learn as much without my help as they can with it, and I'll tell the truth if asked.

I'm sorry for what you are going through. Just for your own personal information, and you can do what you want with it, a lawyer may file a FOIA, but they will not give out information on a denial. We filed one when my husband was denied and that was their response. So if someone was trying to cause us problems (not that we suspect anyone), and he was denied because of what someone reported, we would have no way of knowing.

I hope the best for you and your daughter. You are a strong woman. I have the highest respect for you.

[misterbigtoe 45]

OP said she wasn't even sure whether she was used for benefits or not, so obviously there's no 'smoking gun'. Calling her ex a sociopath is a bit OTT.

True, but the story as told certainly rings of fraud and in many cases there is no "smoking gun". If it is indeed fraud then it is sociopathic behaviour by definition and the OP should take whatever steps are necessary to insure that another sociopath is allowed to undermine what is left of our society. We produce enough of our own.

[Fandango 1,439]

True, but the story as told certainly rings of fraud and in many cases there is no "smoking gun". If it is indeed fraud then it is sociopathic behaviour by definition and the OP should take whatever steps are necessary to insure that another sociopath is allowed to undermine what is left of our society. We produce enough of our own.

It also rings true of a marriage just not working out. Calling him a sociopath is a bit overzealous.

She has no authority to get him deported, and no proof for ICE to start deportation hearings. There is no 'ensuring another sociopath is allowed to undermine what's left of our society.' He's not going anywhere.

[misterbigtoe 45]

It also rings true of a marriage just not working out. Calling him a sociopath is a bit overzealous.

She has no authority to get him deported, and no proof for ICE to start deportation hearings. There is no 'ensuring another sociopath is allowed to undermine what's left of our society.' He's not going anywhere.

In any event, the OP should present whatever information/evidence she does have and let ICE handle it. If that is all that she can do, then she will have done all she can.

[chinese_mutt 11]

I think if you don't have any concrete proof, you'd be written off as the bitter ex-wife who wants to get revenge. But do what you think is best for you.

I'm concerned about your POV about his relatives coming over and becoming local and having influence on your child though. If you didn't like your ex-husband's cultural heritage and their way of living why did you marry him? Did you suddenly realize you don't want a mix culture environment because of your split up? I'm not condemning you for anything but it sounds to me like you want your ex to be Americanized and forget everything in his hometown; furthermore you want him and his family not to exercise/influence the child with his cultural heritage. Unless you've actually changed your mind then just say it out right. I think it is not about the relative going 'local' on you that is bothering you. Search deeper into your heart and your motives. You want to be level headed but split ups and nasty break ups can infiltrate our thoughts even when you don't want to.

Just my opinion. :-) Move on, you have your kid... be thankful. I'm sure she is a wonderful daughter regardless of who the father is or where he came from or how and why he got here.

[doneanddusted 7]

Some awfully good observations here, and Anita... Thank you to everyone who gave their input. It's all been helpful.

As I said in the beginning, I wasn't entirely sure I was looking at this with a clear head and that my motivations came from the right place. I really thought I was keeping my emotions out of it, but I've taken some time to step back, cool off, and look at things again. I've seen a counselor, again. And I've done some checking. I'm almost certain my SIL's fiance is not the same guy my ex mentioned setting her up with months ago. This guy's a USC, a distant relative (not unusual culturally). It will probably be close to a year before they even start the process, and if and when they do, it will be on them to prove what they need to prove. I have absolutely nothing that would be useful to ICE one way or the other (heck, if ICE is reading this and thinks otherwise, I'm sure they can find me), and I have no reason to interfere in her marriage, which is what I would be doing. If she and her future husband decide to relocate, that's up to them. They'll be looking out for their own best interests, or should be, and the way the economy is going in my state, they may very well choose to stay put.

As for embracing their culture and then rejecting it, I'm sure I have overreacted somewhat in a broad sense. I believe I was deceived by ONE person, whether it was a plan from the beginning (and, yeah, "military service," BfA) or not. I didn't want him to become "Americanized." I did want him to be comfortable in his new home, and I wanted him to be who I believed him to be; his birth culture does not condone this id-driven behavior at all, and neither does my own, as a matter of fact. I had come to love and respect his culture even though it would never be my own. What I fear is that he will continue to dodge ALL the tenets of his own belief system when it comes to his own behavior, spend less and less time with his daughter, but then try to insist that his daughter be raised a certain way, not because it is right but so he and his family will not lose face. And that, to me, is just hypocrisy. If we'd remained a team, putting the necessary WORK into the intercultural/interfaith partnership as we'd agreed, with him taking an equal parenting role and modeling the behavior he wished her to follow, it would have been different, but to bail on her and yet expect me to raise her in something foreign to me that I would be lousy at teaching is neither reasonable nor fair to her. Neither is having his extended family step in to play his role while he messes around, if that is indeed his expectation. If he wants to be the dad, he needs to be the dad. If he abdicates, I'm picking up where he leaves off and using my own best judgment. And so far, that's the way it's gone.

As it happens, his is not an isolated case. A few bad apples from that country have put it on Google's short list. But that doesn't mean his family had anything to do with it, and that doesn't mean I'm justified in going from admiring my ex-beloved's country and culture to rejecting it outright since he flipped on me. What's happened is that my heart got busted up very unexpectedly by someone I trusted completely, plus my deepest fear is of somehow having my daughter taken away from me. I still hurt, and I still worry about my child, so when I'm especially tired and overworked, as I was when I first posted, heartache inches closer to desire for revenge, and concern inches toward mild paranoia or at least a feeling of being ganged up on when it hasn't even happened yet, wanting to just hunker down with my kid and do the best I can to raise her to be healthy and happy without having people around whom I don't entirely trust anymore. Extended family there is like nuclear family is here. Everybody has a say. I'm tired, and I just don't want to go up against "everybody." BfA, you might have some personal insight here about how likely that is to happen. I don't think the truth is that extreme, but as I said, the emotions are still skewing my vision. As an old friend of mine who happens to be one of the ex's compatriots said to me recently, if his own sister had the same done to her by an American, he would be tempted to see all Americans in the same light too. So my reaction is normal. And that's why I've got to lay things out in front of unbiased folks before taking action.

What it comes down to is no, my STBX is not a dog with anger issues who's going to run around the U.S. wreaking havoc. He's holding down a decent job, paying taxes, paying child support, has never been arrested. Since long before the split he's been partying like someone ten years younger than he is, drinking too much, and bedding as many bar girls and coeds as he can, and maybe one day he'll grow out of that, but there are plenty of Americans doing the same thing, and they're no danger to society. They're just lousy spouses. I'm hurt, I'm mad, I'm soooo overworked, and I can't go out and get a little affection of my own because I feel bound to my own dang marriage vows even if he does not (and yeah, that's my problem, not his), plus my daughter's needs come before mine, so I've got to suck it up, vent sometimes, but deal with it like a grownup. I made my first post thinking my emotions weren't that much at play, but obviously they still are. I'm going to leave him and his family to do what they do, and I'm going to tend my own garden. If I see or hear of anything concrete and illegal, I'll do my duty and report it, but otherwise, I'll keep my nose out of it and leave it to the pros who, presumably, have their own hearts intact.

Enough metaphors mixed? Cheers, and thanks, y'all. This pity party is over.

I think if you don't have any concrete proof, you'd be written off as the bitter ex-wife who wants to get revenge. But do what you think is best for you.

I'm concerned about your POV about his relatives coming over and becoming local and having influence on your child though. If you didn't like your ex-husband's cultural heritage and their way of living why did you marry him? Did you suddenly realize you don't want a mix culture environment because of your split up? I'm not condemning you for anything but it sounds to me like you want your ex to be Americanized and forget everything in his hometown; furthermore you want him and his family not to exercise/influence the child with his cultural heritage. Unless you've actually changed your mind then just say it out right. I think it is not about the relative going 'local' on you that is bothering you. Search deeper into your heart and your motives. You want to be level headed but split ups and nasty break ups can infiltrate our thoughts even when you don't want to.

Just my opinion. :-) Move on, you have your kid... be thankful. I'm sure she is a wonderful daughter regardless of who the father is or where he came from or how and why he got here.

[TBoneTX 43,058]

Thank you to everyone who gave their input. It's all been helpful.

Thank you for your classy, thoughtful, literate reply. Keep in touch as you care to, mixing metaphors freely, and we're here for you, si man.

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

Some awfully good observations here, and Anita... Thank you to everyone who gave their input. It's all been helpful.

As I said in the beginning, I wasn't entirely sure I was looking at this with a clear head and that my motivations came from the right place. I really thought I was keeping my emotions out of it, but I've taken some time to step back, cool off, and look at things again. I've seen a counselor, again. And I've done some checking. I'm almost certain my SIL's fiance is not the same guy my ex mentioned setting her up with months ago. This guy's a USC, a distant relative (not unusual culturally). It will probably be close to a year before they even start the process, and if and when they do, it will be on them to prove what they need to prove. I have absolutely nothing that would be useful to ICE one way or the other (heck, if ICE is reading this and thinks otherwise, I'm sure they can find me), and I have no reason to interfere in her marriage, which is what I would be doing. If she and her future husband decide to relocate, that's up to them. They'll be looking out for their own best interests, or should be, and the way the economy is going in my state, they may very well choose to stay put.

As for embracing their culture and then rejecting it, I'm sure I have overreacted somewhat in a broad sense. I believe I was deceived by ONE person, whether it was a plan from the beginning (and, yeah, "military service," BfA) or not. I didn't want him to become "Americanized." I did want him to be comfortable in his new home, and I wanted him to be who I believed him to be; his birth culture does not condone this id-driven behavior at all, and neither does my own, as a matter of fact. I had come to love and respect his culture even though it would never be my own. What I fear is that he will continue to dodge ALL the tenets of his own belief system when it comes to his own behavior, spend less and less time with his daughter, but then try to insist that his daughter be raised a certain way, not because it is right but so he and his family will not lose face. And that, to me, is just hypocrisy. If we'd remained a team, putting the necessary WORK into the intercultural/interfaith partnership as we'd agreed, with him taking an equal parenting role and modeling the behavior he wished her to follow, it would have been different, but to bail on her and yet expect me to raise her in something foreign to me that I would be lousy at teaching is neither reasonable nor fair to her. Neither is having his extended family step in to play his role while he messes around, if that is indeed his expectation. If he wants to be the dad, he needs to be the dad. If he abdicates, I'm picking up where he leaves off and using my own best judgment. And so far, that's the way it's gone.

As it happens, his is not an isolated case. A few bad apples from that country have put it on Google's short list. But that doesn't mean his family had anything to do with it, and that doesn't mean I'm justified in going from admiring my ex-beloved's country and culture to rejecting it outright since he flipped on me. What's happened is that my heart got busted up very unexpectedly by someone I trusted completely, plus my deepest fear is of somehow having my daughter taken away from me. I still hurt, and I still worry about my child, so when I'm especially tired and overworked, as I was when I first posted, heartache inches closer to desire for revenge, and concern inches toward mild paranoia or at least a feeling of being ganged up on when it hasn't even happened yet, wanting to just hunker down with my kid and do the best I can to raise her to be healthy and happy without having people around whom I don't entirely trust anymore. Extended family there is like nuclear family is here. Everybody has a say. I'm tired, and I just don't want to go up against "everybody." BfA, you might have some personal insight here about how likely that is to happen. I don't think the truth is that extreme, but as I said, the emotions are still skewing my vision. As an old friend of mine who happens to be one of the ex's compatriots said to me recently, if his own sister had the same done to her by an American, he would be tempted to see all Americans in the same light too. So my reaction is normal. And that's why I've got to lay things out in front of unbiased folks before taking action.

What it comes down to is no, my STBX is not a dog with anger issues who's going to run around the U.S. wreaking havoc. He's holding down a decent job, paying taxes, paying child support, has never been arrested. Since long before the split he's been partying like someone ten years younger than he is, drinking too much, and bedding as many bar girls and coeds as he can, and maybe one day he'll grow out of that, but there are plenty of Americans doing the same thing, and they're no danger to society. They're just lousy spouses. I'm hurt, I'm mad, I'm soooo overworked, and I can't go out and get a little affection of my own because I feel bound to my own dang marriage vows even if he does not (and yeah, that's my problem, not his), plus my daughter's needs come before mine, so I've got to suck it up, vent sometimes, but deal with it like a grownup. I made my first post thinking my emotions weren't that much at play, but obviously they still are. I'm going to leave him and his family to do what they do, and I'm going to tend my own garden. If I see or hear of anything concrete and illegal, I'll do my duty and report it, but otherwise, I'll keep my nose out of it and leave it to the pros who, presumably, have their own hearts intact.

Enough metaphors mixed? Cheers, and thanks, y'all. This pity party is over.

You are in good company...I was just lucky that I did not lose everything I owned to the monster I was with. If it wasnt for quick acting family members, I was on the way to losing all my money and probably have the equity in my house. My husband was coached it seemed repeatedly from the how to dump and rip off the american playbook but he made some very critical mistakes. The biggest one was relying on armchair advice from men previously married to Americans. He wasnt able to play the game as slickly I think as some of his friends and I was able to get him out of house and not have to deal with barganing to hold on to it. Mine screwed around on me too and as the years went by becoming worse and worse until I couldnt take it anymore and even then he still felt entitled. The new trick is setting up the wife for a police incident or getting her arrested and then maneuvering. Its terrifying to never have been exposed to vawa games or someone laying in wait for you to make a mistake to be able to take complete advantage of you.. IE making you stay legally married to them with some blackmail item hanging over you while they run around and make a mockery of your marriage.. Take care of your daughter please.. If he hooks up with someone from back home, most likely he will not push for her to be with him as much because that becomes a bitter reminder of what he had to do to get to this country and how he got his papers.. hugs