The rights of Israel

[scandal 951]

Israel's "lawfare" against the Palestinian people is rooted in a ficticious narrative of having a "right" to exist.

A. The OP begins by challenging the assertion that Israel has a fundamental right to exist. Noted.

it's much of truth.

B. Poster has stated that he concurs with the posted OP, and refers to it as "truth". Poster is on record as not accepting Israel's right to exist as a sovereign state on this planet amongst the community of nations. Noted.

I don't think negotiations will lead to anything, cause it never did in the past, but just for mentioning, when a ship of aid breaks the blockade that's a good thing, it's not suppose to prevent things from progressing, also the border crossings will be opened between Rafah and Gaza permanently, lets see if that will anger Israel or what.

C. Poster goes on to doubt in the value of negotiations between Israel and Palestinians to settle their differences. Noted.

Is the contradiction here not obvious? How can you possibly expect a party who's very right to existence you deny to "negotiate" towards an ultimate settlement of grievances, when the only settlement that can satisfy the other party is mass national suicide? From the perspective of the hardliners who don't accept Israel's existential right, the only possible outcome is no more Israel. How do you expect Israel to negotiate that?

Israel has stated throughout its existence from 1948 its willingness to make peace with its neighbors and to find a just solution to the needs of Jews and Palestinian Arabs. Israeli Arabs are full citizens of the state, have political parties, serve in the Knesset, have educational and civil institutions and the right to practice of their religions (Muslim, Christian, Druse) respected and enforced by law.

Israel made peace with the first Arab neighbor that extended its hand to do so (Egypt) and followed with Jordan. As soon as the PLO under Arafat accepted the right of Israel to exist and renounced terrorism, Prime Minister Rabin extended the hand of peace, negotiated the Oslo accords, transferred responsibilities to the Palestinian Authority, and continues to cooperate with the PA on security matters.

In short, Israel in distant as well as recent history has demonstrated an ability for Arabs and Jews to coexist civilly in one land, and has indicated its willingness to find compromise and accommodation with neighboring Arab states and the Palestinians through negotiation, so long as very basic expectations are met, namely (a) accept our right of sheer existence (b) prosecute the terrorist elements that continue to act violently.

You question the sincerity of Israel's negotiations. And yet at one time the PA was on the run in Tunis and Beirut, today it is on the verge of declaring statehood in Ramallah - as a consequence of negotiation with Israelis. Israel can, and has, negotiated with Anwar Sadat, King Hussein, Yasser Arafat and Abu Mazen when these basic conditions are met. How can we possibly negotiate with Hamas or Iran (or you) when the only outcome you offer is our entire abdication of our homeland and state?

Look, I want a two state solution. Most Israelis, in poll after poll do too. Most Palestinians, if you believe the polls, do as well. It's time for Palestinians and their supporters to press for their legitimate rights, but not at the expense of the legitimate rights of Israelis as well. Tell me that you want a stop to settlements in the West Bank, and to lift economic and roadblock restrictions? I will agree with you. Tell me that you want to remove every last Jew from Tel Aviv and Haifa and I'll tell you to ####### off.

[Samoray 165]

Is the contradiction here not obvious? How can you possibly expect a party who's very right to existence you deny to "negotiate" towards an ultimate settlement of grievances, when the only settlement that can satisfy the other party is mass national suicide? From the perspective of the hardliners who don't accept Israel's existential right, the only possible outcome is no more Israel. How do you expect Israel to negotiate that?

There is no contradiction, The state of Israel at it's borders right now is illegal, that's a fact no matter what you or I may think, they occupied land that was not given to them by the UN or the British, which didn't belong to none of the three.

Israel has stated throughout its existence from 1948 its willingness to make peace with its neighbors and to find a just solution to the needs of Jews and Palestinian Arabs. Israeli Arabs are full citizens of the state, have political parties, serve in the Knesset, have educational and civil institutions and the right to practice of their religions (Muslim, Christian, Druse) respected and enforced by law.

You can state what ever you want to state, there is no willingness to do an that was proven through out the entire occupation of the Israelis to Gaza and the west bank, where Israel has launched several attacks on the Palestinians, You're saying Arabs in Israel are treated the same, Muslims and Christians ?????????????????, maybe you need to look this up, the discrimination and racism laws against non-jews in Israel.

Israel made peace with the first Arab neighbor that extended its hand to do so (Egypt) and followed with Jordan. As soon as the PLO under Arafat accepted the right of Israel to exist and renounced terrorism, Prime Minister Rabin extended the hand of peace, negotiated the Oslo accords, transferred responsibilities to the Palestinian Authority, and continues to cooperate with the PA on security matters.

In short, Israel in distant as well as recent history has demonstrated an ability for Arabs and Jews to coexist civilly in one land, and has indicated its willingness to find compromise and accommodation with neighboring Arab states and the Palestinians through negotiation, so long as very basic expectations are met, namely (a) accept our right of sheer existence (b) prosecute the terrorist elements that continue to act violently.

You question the sincerity of Israel's negotiations. And yet at one time the PA was on the run in Tunis and Beirut, today it is on the verge of declaring statehood in Ramallah - as a consequence of negotiation with Israelis. Israel can, and has, negotiated with Anwar Sadat, King Hussein, Yasser Arafat and Abu Mazen when these basic conditions are met. How can we possibly negotiate with Hamas or Iran (or you) when the only outcome you offer is our entire abdication of our homeland and state?

You don't have to negotiate with me, just get your gun and go shoot some Palestinian civilians.

Look, I want a two state solution. Most Israelis, in poll after poll do too. Most Palestinians, if you believe the polls, do as well. It's time for Palestinians and their supporters to press for their legitimate rights, but not at the expense of the legitimate rights of Israelis as well. Tell me that you want a stop to settlements in the West Bank, and to lift economic and roadblock restrictions? I will agree with you. Tell me that you want to remove every last Jew from Tel Aviv and Haifa and I'll tell you to ####### off.

This is in the ideal world, but in reality Israel doesn't want peace and i have said it much on this thread as why is that. if there will be peace, then that would mean it will have to stop expanding, Israel won't find land to take to build settlements, the only way they can survive is by this kind of situation where Palestinians are separated between the west bank and Gaza and Israel is in control of everything, there is no Palestinian money for example, it is the Israel currency or the Jordan currency.

also, if Israel didn't do the peace treaty with Egypt, there would've been more and more wars between Egypt and Israel, cause we would've not stopped until we got every inch of our land back.

this is what Israel is doing to the Palestinians today, right now

Israeli forces open fire at Palestinian protesters

[Pooky 3,348]

Have you any proof for your assertion that the Israelis shoot at possible blockade-runners with no warning?

The easiest proof of this would not be a website with an article, Just look at what Israel does to Palestinian civilians in retaliation if Hamas fly rockets on them, You wouldn't think that they would stand a chance or risking negotiating with a ship that is approaching them, and the history tells about all the crimes they have committed against Palestinians.

but here it goes

Israeli forces have attacked a flotilla of aid-carrying ships aiming to break the country's siege on Gaza.

At least 19 people were killed and dozens injured when troops intercepted the convoy of ships dubbed the Freedom Flotilla early on Monday, Israeli radio reported ...

How about this?

The web page is long, detailed, with a large number of links included, so I won't paste the whole thing, only the single salient point.

A few minutes after 9:00 P.M., two missile boats and the Sa'ar 5-class corvette INS Lahav left Haifa naval base to intercept the flotilla. The Israeli Navy made initial contact with the flotilla at 11 p.m. (2000 UTC) on 30 May, about 120 miles (190 km) northwest of Gaza, 80 miles (130 km) off the coast of southern Lebanon, in international waters, ordering the ships to follow them to port or otherwise be boarded.[47][92]

WIkipedia link

This constitutes fair warning.

What happened afterward is a mess, for which both sides deserve blame, the Israelis more so. However, your posted article mis-states the number of fatalities. There were 9 deaths on the Mavi Marmara, not 19, as stated.

And, one last point. Have you noticed how reports of Hamas rocket attacks have disappeared recently, ever since they fired an "advanced guided anti-tank missile" at an Israeli school bus?

[Pooky 3,348]

The USS Liberty's purpose was to monitor communications from all parties, translate those intercepts, and rebroadcast them in near real time. The US did the same thing with U-2 flights over the area, giving the photographic information to all parties. The intent of the US forces in the theater was to prevent any party from doing exactly was Israel did.

In a real sense, the failure was the Johnson's unwillingness to protect US assets from possible attack. The USS Liberty was inadequately defended. Of course, it was operating within six miles of the coast at the time...

No excusing Israel's actions here. The initial attack was unjustified and subsequent follow-up was brutal and indefensible.

Strategically, however, you can see the logic. With the Israeli army about to mount its assault on the Golan Heights, against the request of the US government, there was concern on the Israeli side that the US would warn the Syrians about what was coming. It still doesn't make it right.

Have you any opinion on why LBJ ordered the Sixth Fleet not to intervene and why the whole thing was covered up? I think the outcome of the Six-Day War suited the US Middle-East and Cold War policy down to the ground, with the Soviet-backed Syria and Egypt both getting bloody noses from the Israelis.

[Pooky 3,348]

this is what Israel is doing to the Palestinians today, right now

Israeli forces open fire at Palestinian protesters

What?

No mention of the thousands of Palestinian protesters trying to breach the Syrian/Israeli border?

No mention of the molotov cocktails, rocks and other missiles being thrown at the Israeli security forces?

No mention of the warning shots fired first?

No mention of the truck driver with a 1 mile-long brake failure in Tel Aviv?

Must be all the fault of the Israelis again.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Have you any opinion on why LBJ ordered the Sixth Fleet not to intervene and why the whole thing was covered up?

I can only tell you neither the "official" story, nor the "unofficial" accounts out there tell the whole story.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

In threads like these one thing becomes very clear to me. There are posters who see one side as innocent which isn't very objective. Samoray definitely fits this category. Indigo-whatever their name was another example of this. Don't get me wrong, there are those who see Israel in the same way, though they haven't posted here yet.

[Samoray 165]

In threads like these one thing becomes very clear to me. There are posters who see one side as innocent which isn't very objective. Samoray definitely fits this category. Indigo-whatever their name was another example of this. Don't get me wrong, there are those who see Israel in the same way, though they haven't posted here yet.

Palestinians, Of course they are innocent, they're just demanding their right of a Home and a dignified life, Israel of course not innocent with the military arsenal, But for me there is a difference between Israel and Israeli People, for those you're talking about, Hamas is the Palestinians, they don't differentiate.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

© Conflict management, peace initiatives and threat perceptions

• After the US has used its veto power against the UNSC resolution regarding Israeli settlements, 47% of the Israelis and 57% of the Palestinians expect that negotiations will continue. 83%of the Israelis and 52% of the Palestinians expect that some armed attacks will continue as well.
  
• 54% of the Israelis support and 41% oppose talks with Hamas if needed to reach a compromise agreement with the Palestinians. However 53% think that the majority of the Israeli public opposes such negotiations and only 31% think a majority supports it.
  
• 56% of the Israelis oppose and 31% support the Saudi initiative, while 56% of the Palestinians support the plan and 41% oppose it. The plan calls for Arab recognition of and normalization of relations with Israel after it ends its occupation of Arab territories occupied in 1967 and after the establishment of a Palestinian state. The plan calls for Israeli retreat from all territories occupied in 1967 including Gaza the West Bank, Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, and the establishment of a Palestinian state. The refugee problem will be resolved through negotiation in a just and agreed upon manner and in accordance with UN resolution 194. In return, all Arab states will recognize Israel and its right to secure borders, will sign peace treaties with her and establish normal diplomatic relation. In our December 2010 poll there was a similar level of support for the plan among both Israelis and Palestinians.
  
• In our poll we also examine periodically Israelis’ and Palestinians’ readiness for a mutual recognition of identity as part of a permanent status agreement and after all issues in the conflict are resolved and a Palestinian State is established. Our current poll shows that 52% of the Israelis, support such a mutual recognition; recognition of identity and 36%oppose it. Among Palestinians, 48% support and 50% oppose it.
  
• Among Israelis, 54% are worried and 41% are not worried that they or their family may be harmed by Arabs in their daily life, just like in our previous poll in December. Among Palestinians 70% are worried and 30% are not worried that they or a member of their family may be hurt by Israelis in their daily life or that their land would be confiscated or home demolished. In our last poll in December, 75% of the Palestinians said they were worried and 25% said they were not worried.
  
• The level of threat on both sides regarding the aspirations of the other side in the long run is very high. 60% of Palestinians think that Israel’s goals are to extend the borders of the state to cover all the area between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea and expel its Arab citizens. A plurality of the Israelis (34%) fears that the Palestinians’ aspirations in the long run are to conquer the State of Israel and destroy much of the Jewish population in Israel.
  

This joint survey was conducted with the support of the Ford Foundation Cairo office and the onrad Adenauer Stiftung in Ramallah.

http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2011/p39ejoint.html

[Samoray 165]

What?

These protesters had no weapons, They just want to get back to their homes where Israel had evacuated them and keep evacuating more everyday.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9oQbcfVPMQ&feature=relmfu

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Palestinians, Of course they are innocent, they're just demanding their right of a Home and a dignified life, Israel of course not innocent with the military arsenal, But for me there is a difference between Israel and Israeli People, for those you're talking about, Hamas is the Palestinians, they don't differentiate.

So you are saying Israel is not innocent, the Israelis are. Hamas is not innocent, the Palestinians are?

[Samoray 165]

So you are saying Israel is not innocent, the Israelis are. Hamas is not innocent, the Palestinians are?

Yes

[scandal 951]

There is no contradiction, The state of Israel at it's borders right now is illegal, that's a fact no matter what you or I may think, they occupied land that was not given to them by the UN or the British, which didn't belong to none of the three.

A fact, huh? Which is why Abu Ammar (Yasser Arafat) wrote this, to initiate the Oslo Accords:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel-Palestine_Liberation_Organization_letters_of_recognition

September 9, 1993

Yitzhak Rabin

Prime Minister of Israel

Mr. Prime Minister,

The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era...I would like to confirm the following PLO commitments: The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security. The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338. The PLO commits itself...to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations...the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators...the PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid. Consequently, the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian Covenant.

Sincerely,

Yasser Arafat.

Chairman: The Palestine Liberation Organization.

Your attitude of continued denial of Israel's right to exist aligns you outside of the PA and with the radical elements led by Hamas that have never accepted the legal basis of 242 & 338, or any negotiated framework for ending the dispute. You are on the outside looking in.

You're saying Arabs in Israel are treated the same, Muslims and Christians ?????????????????, maybe you need to look this up, the discrimination and racism laws against non-jews in Israel.

Maybe you need to provide a citation or two, rather than just spouting whatever comes into your head.

I challenge you to show me one instance of a discriminatory or racist statute on the books in Israel that persecutes non-Jewish minorities.

Here is what I can cite to you, from the US State Department website:

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2004/35499.htm

Israel has no constitution; however, the law provides for freedom of worship, and the Government generally respects this right in practice. The Declaration of Independence describes the country as a "Jewish state" but also provides for full social and political equality regardless of religious affiliation. Furthermore, the law explicitly guarantees freedom of religion and the safeguarding of "holy places of all religions." Israeli Arabs and other non-Jews generally are free to practice their religions; however, discrepancies exist in the treatment of various non-Jewish communities in society.

...

Israeli law recognizes the "religious communities" as carried over from those recognized under the British Mandate. These are: Eastern Orthodox, Latin (Roman Catholic), Gregorian-Armenian, Armenian-Catholic, Syrian (Catholic), Chaldean (Uniate), Greek Catholic Melkite, Maronite, Syrian Orthodox, and Jewish. Three additional religious communities have subsequently been recognized-the Druze, the Evangelical Episcopal Church, and the Baha'i. The status of some Christian denominations with representation in the country has been defined by a collection of ad hoc arrangements with various government agencies. The fact that the Muslim population was not defined as a religious community is a vestige of the Ottoman period, during which Islam was the dominant religion, and does not affect the rights of the Muslim community to practice their faith. The Government allows members of unrecognized religions the freedom to practice their religion. According to the Government, there were no religious denominations awaiting recognition during the period covered by this report.

Is there discrimination in practice (not in law)? Unfortunately, there is at times. Of various minority populations- including Arabs, Druse, Ethiopian (black) Jews, gays, and other minorities. Same as in the US or any other country. Discrimination is an ugly fact of life. The law however is clear: all residents of Israel are free to practice their religion openly, and persecution of non-Jewish minorities is illegal.

You don't have to negotiate with me, just get your gun and go shoot some Palestinian civilians.

Now that's a really mature thing to say. You've really elevated the tone of debate with that crack.

[Samoray 165]

A fact, huh? Which is why Abu Ammar (Yasser Arafat) wrote this, to initiate the Oslo Accords:

http://en.wikipedia...._of_recognition

Your attitude of continued denial of Israel's right to exist aligns you outside of the PA and with the radical elements led by Hamas that have never accepted the legal basis of 242 & 338, or any negotiated framework for ending the dispute. You are on the outside looking in.

Maybe you need to provide a citation or two, rather than just spouting whatever comes into your head.

I challenge you to show me one instance of a discriminatory or racist statute on the books in Israel that persecutes non-Jewish minorities.

Here is what I can cite to you, from the US State Department website:

http://www.state.gov.../2004/35499.htm

I am not outside, i am right inside of it and all around it, If Israel was a totally legitimate country, then the whole world would've recognized it, but that's not the case there are tens of countries that don't recognize Israel, but the fact that Israel exist today on it's new borders after 1967, doesn't make the Palestinians forget that they want this conquered land back. I know there is Israel today but i know also that they build illegal settlements, they demolish Palestinians houses to build theirs, the way they do business is totally illegal right from the start.

Is there discrimination in practice (not in law)? Unfortunately, there is at times. Of various minority populations- including Arabs, Druse, Ethiopian (black) Jews, gays, and other minorities. Same as in the US or any other country. Discrimination is an ugly fact of life. The law however is clear: all residents of Israel are free to practice their religion openly, and persecution of non-Jewish minorities is illegal.

Here is my citation

The 1952 Law of Entry into Israel was apparently legislated simply to regulate entry into the country. However, all its clauses, save the one making it obligatory to enter by way of an official border control point, are intended to make a clear distinction between foreign citizens who are Jewish and those who are not. Yet the words "Jew" and "non-Jew" do not appear. So it is, for instance, that the law stipulates that whoever "does not hold an immigration visa or immigration certificate" can be immediately deported by the minister of the Interior, or, can be denied a visa at any time. As for the explanation and definition of who qualifies for an immigration visa, one must seek the answer in another law, the Law of Return. The answer is: Jews.

However, the authority vested in the minister of the Interior to deny entry to foreign citizens if there is reason to suspect they may harm the public is only applicable to non-Jews. The minister of the Interior does not have the authority to deny any Jew - even if he's a scoundrel of the first order who can be counted on to do harm - the right to settle in Israel. The reason: Jews do not need permits to settle in Israel....Jews arriving in Israel from abroad are almost immediately given all the rights and privileges that Israeli Jews enjoy....Furthermore, they immediately acquire the right to vote in elections and to be elected to the Knesset - even if they do not speak a word of Hebrew.

While the minister of the Interior has the authority - albeit, authority which cannot be exercised without great difficulties - to deny "immigration visas" to Jews, once a Jew enters the country, the minister of Interior cannot do anything about it, and does not even have the authority to withdraw residence permits from undesirables. In regard to non-Jews, the situation is quite different: the minister of the Interior can withdraw their permits even if they have been living here for years. We have witnessed how swindlers and common criminals have succeeded in receiving Israeli citizenship, not to mention those who even managed to get themselves elected to the Knesset. It wasn't the Law of Return that allowed them to do so, it was the law governing entry to Israel, which in turn is based on the Citizenship laws of 1952.

The Citizenship Laws of 1952 are a pinnacle in the annals of the art of obfuscation. Even though the word "Jew" is not mentioned at all in these laws, it is, in its entirety, based on the distinction between "Jews" and "non-Jews". This is one of the pillars of the Israel Apartheid regime, alongside a plethora of other laws, regulations and practices, for "Jews" and "non-Jews". They include: the educational system; the regulations of the Israel Lands Authority (which sees to maintaining segregation on the ground); and the religious marriage laws, which do not exist in conjunction with civil marriage laws.

Once the Jewish State was established, it began enacting laws to help the confiscation of land from native non-Jews, their political repression and their destitution. This process was described in detail by Azriel Karlibach, first editor and founding member of the Hebrew newspaper Ma'ariv in a shattering article published in that paper on 25 Feb.. 1953 and by many other authors. The Israeli parliament passed laws to make it impossible for non-Jews who temporarily left the area of conflict to return to their homes or obtain access to their possessions that were left behind. A law was enacted that enabled any Jew in the world to immigrate to Israel and automatically become an Israeli citizen. A law was enacted that enabled the World Zionist Organisation and the Jewish Agency to act as a semi-official body, for the exclusive benefit of Jews.

http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-genocide-palestinian-apartheidlaws.html

Now that's a really mature thing to say. You've really elevated the tone of debate with that crack.

You did that by putting me in the category of Hamas which you can't negotiate with.

Edited May 16, 2011 by Samoray

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Just for clarification, Samoray, do you believe Israel has no right to exist?