The American paradox of Christianity and capitalism

[B_J 2,752]

Some people, which includes some Christians who are right wing (but also includes people who aren't Christians), don't think it's the government's business to legislate a lot of things, including requiring everyone to buy health insurance. That does not = not wanting people to get help or medical care. I won't deny that there are Christians who don't seem to represent Jesus well.

I guess a problem I have with Christians on the left is using Jesus for their own political means, when it suits them. The same thing you seem to have as a problem with Christians on the right. I guess in general, Christians- or maybe all humans, are just picky. The right might say, how can Christians on the left tolerate abortion? Christians on the left here say, how can Christian tolerate people not getting health care? Can you say with confidence that either side is actually doing exactly what Jesus wanted? I can't say that with confidence.

[james&olya 1,121]

Some people, which includes some Christians who are right wing (but also includes people who aren't Christians), don't think it's the government's business to legislate a lot of things, including requiring everyone to buy health insurance. That does not = not wanting people to get help or medical care. I won't deny that there are Christians who don't seem to represent Jesus well.

I guess a problem I have with Christians on the left is using Jesus for their own political means, when it suits them. The same thing you seem to have as a problem with Christians on the right. I guess in general, Christians- or maybe all humans, are just picky. The right might say, how can Christians on the left tolerate abortion? Christians on the left here say, how can Christian tolerate people not getting health care? Can you say with confidence that either side is actually doing exactly what Jesus wanted? I can't say that with confidence.

Huge difference between PRIVATE moral decisions and PUBLIC policy! I am pro-life in my private, moral views, not that it is any of your, or the government's business! But because I recognize the important distinction between LEGALITY and MORALITY I do not attempt to impose my personal moral (religious) viewpoint on others by using it as the basis for law. In a free country they have a right to their own moral and religious belief. So I am pro-choice also. Like a favorite bumper sticker I saw saying 'CHOOSE LIFE'! Exactly. Both words are important!

The problem is the sheer hypocrisy of those on the right that have no problem enlisting government to force others to adhere to the PRIVATE religious/moral code of the right-wingers and at the same time make the claim that when it comes to PUBLIC policy such as access to quality health care for all they claim government cannot be involved! Jesus Christ referred to this type as 'whited sepulchres, full of dead mens bones'! Outwardly upstanding and righteous, inwardly vile and corrupt!

[chri'stina 190]

Huge difference between PRIVATE moral decisions and PUBLIC policy! I am pro-life in my private, moral views, not that it is any of your, or the government's business! But because I recognize the important distinction between LEGALITY and MORALITY I do not attempt to impose my personal moral (religious) viewpoint on others by using it as the basis for law. In a free country they have a right to their own moral and religious belief. So I am pro-choice also. Like a favorite bumper sticker I saw saying 'CHOOSE LIFE'! Exactly. Both words are important!

The problem is the sheer hypocrisy of those on the right that have no problem enlisting government to force others to adhere to the PRIVATE religious/moral code of the right-wingers and at the same time make the claim that when it comes to PUBLIC policy such as access to quality health care for all they claim government cannot be involved! Jesus Christ referred to this type as 'whited sepulchres, full of dead mens bones'! Outwardly upstanding and righteous, inwardly vile and corrupt!

So only people on the right can be that way?

The thing is it's not a private issue to take a life, to those who oppose abortion. It's illegal to kill someone. Unless they are in the womb.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Huge difference between PRIVATE moral decisions and PUBLIC policy! I am pro-life in my private, moral views, not that it is any of your, or the government's business! But because I recognize the important distinction between LEGALITY and MORALITY I do not attempt to impose my personal moral (religious) viewpoint on others by using it as the basis for law. In a free country they have a right to their own moral and religious belief. So I am pro-choice also. Like a favorite bumper sticker I saw saying 'CHOOSE LIFE'! Exactly. Both words are important!

The problem is the sheer hypocrisy of those on the right that have no problem enlisting government to force others to adhere to the PRIVATE religious/moral code of the right-wingers and at the same time make the claim that when it comes to PUBLIC policy such as access to quality health care for all they claim government cannot be involved! Jesus Christ referred to this type as 'whited sepulchres, full of dead mens bones'! Outwardly upstanding and righteous, inwardly vile and corrupt!

Humorous for you be using that quote, referring to the Pharisees and Scribes (the Torah Literate, of which Christ was a member), the biblical version of educated elitists.

[james&olya 1,121]

So only people on the right can be that way?

The thing is it's not a private issue to take a life, to those who oppose abortion. It's illegal to kill someone. Unless they are in the womb.

And I will agree with you when the fetus is defined LEGALLY as a person! Until then there is no basis in law for the government to be involved in a woman's private decision regarding her own body!

And yes, absolutely, there are vile and corrupt people of every political stance! I am just saying that those who try to claim a moral high ground ought not be so transparently corrupt! Like the adage about people who live in glass houses....

[chri'stina 190]

And I will agree with you when the fetus is defined LEGALLY as a person! Until then there is no basis in law for the government to be involved in a woman's private decision regarding her own body!

And yes, absolutely, there are vile and corrupt people of every political stance! I am just saying that those who try to claim a moral high ground ought not be so transparently corrupt! Like the adage about people who live in glass houses....

We don't agree that it's her own body. So we will have to agree to disagree there, because I will never agree to that. A woman's body starts working for the fetus. It directs it's bodily functioning on behalf of the fetus. It doesn't expect the fetus to give back as if it was an extra body part. It's a separate entity that needs the mother's nutrients and her body to grow inside, it is not a woman's body part.

I guess in the 2nd paragraph above, it can easily be turned around about either side.

[Dan J 277]

So only people on the right can be that way?

The thing is it's not a private issue to take a life, to those who oppose abortion. It's illegal to kill someone. Unless they are in the womb.

The argument ultimately comes down to when people feel that life starts. Scientifically speaking A fetus is not viable outside of the mother until the third trimester. If you define a fetus as an individual as a individual person at conception, then you open the door to other crimes. Such as endangerment if the mother drinks, smokes, or does anything else to harm the baby, or manslaughter if something that the mother does causes a miscarriage.

[Nina~ 431]

So only people on the right can be that way?

The thing is it's not a private issue to take a life, to those who oppose abortion. It's illegal to kill someone. Unless they are in the womb.

Abortion should really be a non-issue with Christians, imo. Personally as a Christian, I find it easier to stand outside and cluck my tongue at women walking into an abortion clinics rather than working on my personal shortcomings, because that sure is the easiest and surest way for me to feel righteous. Who really wants to examine their own life for sins and work on being a better person when you can feel like a "righteous Christian" by railing against abortion and judging other people's poor choices, right?

If you are one of those people who like to clean out your closet when there is a deadline looming for a major project that you haven't yet started, you will surely understand what I mean.

[chri'stina 190]

Abortion should really be a non-issue with Christians, imo. Personally as a Christian, I find it easier to stand outside and cluck my tongue at women walking into an abortion clinics rather than working on my personal shortcomings, because that sure is the easiest and surest way for me to feel righteous. Who really wants to examine their own life for sins and work on being a better person when you can feel like a "righteous Christian" by railing against abortion and judging other people's poor choices, right?

If you are one of those people who like to clean out your closet when there is a deadline looming for a major project that you haven't yet started, you will surely understand what I mean.

I wouldn't stand outside an abortion clinic and do that. I don't think expressing my views on VJ equals that, but maybe you didn't mean me specifically.

I guess this is part of my point, that people want Christians to have certain views only if it suits their political views.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

The argument ultimately comes down to when people feel that life starts. Scientifically speaking A fetus is not viable outside of the mother until the third trimester. If you define a fetus as an individual as a individual person at conception, then you open the door to other crimes. Such as endangerment if the mother drinks, smokes, or does anything else to harm the baby, or manslaughter if something that the mother does causes a miscarriage.

[Nina~ 431]

I wouldn't stand outside an abortion clinic and do that. I don't think expressing my views on VJ equals that, but maybe you didn't mean me specifically.

I guess this is part of my point, that people want Christians to have certain views only if it suits their political views.

No, I didn't mean you specifically. I meant it as all Christian (left & right) including myself. And I dont spend my day standing outside abortion clinics, really.

The point I am trying to make is that, we Christians tend to cherry-pick stuff that works for us and expect everyone else to follow the same ideals and we tend to forget the bigger picture at the end of the day.

[james&olya 1,121]

We don't agree that it's her own body. So we will have to agree to disagree there, because I will never agree to that. A woman's body starts working for the fetus. It directs it's bodily functioning on behalf of the fetus. It doesn't expect the fetus to give back as if it was an extra body part. It's a separate entity that needs the mother's nutrients and her body to grow inside, it is not a woman's body part.

I guess in the 2nd paragraph above, it can easily be turned around about either side.

Christina, I agree completely with you on a moral level! I just don't believe that you and I are allowed to compel others to accept our moral code and force their compliance under penalty of law. The government is given the task of protecting the rights of citizens and non-citizen PERSONS under their juroisdiction. When the fetus becomes a person by legal definition then laws would naturally follow forbidding abortion.

[^_^ 5,021]

Old Guy - what are you disagreeing with? Your graphic shows that fetuses are viable after 28 weeks, which is the start of the third tri. Your graphic also shows limited viability as early as 24 weeks, but the success rate isn't all that high. Either way, if your argument is to say 24 vs 28 weeks, I don't think you win much.

[mawilson 2,133]

We don't agree that it's her own body. So we will have to agree to disagree there, because I will never agree to that. A woman's body starts working for the fetus. It directs it's bodily functioning on behalf of the fetus. It doesn't expect the fetus to give back as if it was an extra body part. It's a separate entity that needs the mother's nutrients and her body to grow inside, it is not a woman's body part.

Do you want make abortion illegal and go back to the 'good old days' of back street abortions

where bleeding to death or dying of infections was commonplace?

[chri'stina 190]

No, I didn't mean you specifically. I meant it as all Christian (left & right) including myself. And I dont spend my day standing outside abortion clinics, really.

The point I am trying to make is that, we Christians tend to cherry-pick stuff that works for us and expect everyone else to follow the same ideals and we tend to forget the bigger picture at the end of the day.

I do agree with you.

If I am going to speak as a Christian, I am not against health care reform. I don't think the current way is good but not sure the 2014 plan is the best option. I have insurance through my husband's employer(we pay for me and my son, his is covered). But most of my relatives do not have health insurance. Even though they'd like affordable health care, they don't have to agree with the way the government is going about it.

Edited January 18, 2011 by chri'stina