The Chicken or the Egg

[pushbrk 12,114]

I don't see how one "becomes" a pedophile; as I don't see how one "becomes" heterosexual. I do not condone pedophilia, but I don't think it is a chosen behavior --- same used to be said about the gay community.

The same is still said and belief held about homosexual behavior by vast numbers of people across many cultural and religious demographics. Let's not get off the topic at hand but surely whether one believes the cause of homosexual behavior is genetic or a choice, certain environmental factors are required for the behavior to exist or flourish, even if the only critical environmental factor is the availability of a willing partner.

For instance, if the son of a thief becomes a thief, is the cause purely genetic? What about the step-son of a thief?

Is "Lolitadom" genetic? What about a foot fetish? Bestiality? Bondage and domination? The list goes on.

Edited April 15, 2008 by pushbrk

[Chica Yeyé 41]

I don't see how one "becomes" a pedophile; as I don't see how one "becomes" heterosexual. I do not condone pedophilia, but I don't think it is a chosen behavior --- same used to be said about the gay community.

The same is still said and belief held about homosexual behavior by vast numbers of people across many cultural and religious demographics. Let's not get off the topic at hand but surely whether one believes the cause of homosexual behavior is genetic or a choice, certain environmental factors are required for the behavior to exist or flourish, even if the only critical environmental factor is the availability of a willing partner.

For instance, if the son of a thief becomes a thief, is the cause purely genetic? What about the step-son of a thief?

Is "Lolitadom" genetic? What about a foot fetish? Bestiality? Bondage and domination? The list goes on.

As long as I pay my way, I will believe/think and post as I wish pushbrk, I've told you before to save your condescending tone for those you can actually impress. What other people believe it is their belief, and very much respected.

Peace, L.

[pushbrk 12,114]

I don't see how one "becomes" a pedophile; as I don't see how one "becomes" heterosexual. I do not condone pedophilia, but I don't think it is a chosen behavior --- same used to be said about the gay community.

The same is still said and belief held about homosexual behavior by vast numbers of people across many cultural and religious demographics. Let's not get off the topic at hand but surely whether one believes the cause of homosexual behavior is genetic or a choice, certain environmental factors are required for the behavior to exist or flourish, even if the only critical environmental factor is the availability of a willing partner.

For instance, if the son of a thief becomes a thief, is the cause purely genetic? What about the step-son of a thief?

Is "Lolitadom" genetic? What about a foot fetish? Bestiality? Bondage and domination? The list goes on.

As long as I pay my way, I will believe/think and post as I wish pushbrk, I've told you before to save your condescending tone for those you can actually impress. What other people believe it is their belief, and very much respected.

Peace, L.

I'm asking to stay on the topic because otherwise there's no point in having the discussion. Of course, you'll do as you wish. That's understood, accepted and welcome.

[Caladan 19]

Once a pedophile, always a pedophile no matter what they choose to become later on in life, whether it's a priesthood, a high school teacher, a sales person, what have you. I'm sure the Catholic church is not the only religious entity who has had pedophiles in their system, but it is the one who has been put on the spotlight.

Diana

That's true. I read somewhere that there have been more cases of abuse among other religions, but the Catholic Church's fiasco had more to do with how it handled the cases - like transfering the priest to another parish where he found new victims (not to mention villifying the accusers). There was a lot of ignorance about pedophilia by the Church, which thought of it more as a sinful act than a mental illness.

I think this is right. Plus, the Pope's talking about "discernment", which refers to the lengthy process before becoming a priest that a candidate needs to go through, and the idea is that if they can catch someone who is a pedophile before they get ordained, so much the better for everyone. (And the Pope took care to distinguish being gay from abusing children.) There's lots of reasons one might not get through discernment; wanting to get married, or to have children, or not being able to dedicate one's life to the priesthood for any number of reasons. As I understand it, the Pope is saying that any hint of a tendency towards pedophilia -- or that one might develop it later, even if one hasn't abused anyone -- is an automatic disqualification.

The Church has already been focusing on what to do once they catch a pedophile; this is aimed towards prevention, because it isn't at all clear that pedophilia is something that develops in late adulthood, or something like choosing to become a thief.

[GabiandVi 34]

In answer to the question, I don't believe any normal adult "becomes" a pedophile. This is a sick, twisted, disorder from which it seems to be impossible to be "rehabilitated." I can see how a pedophile would be attracted to the priesthood, and I can see why there are more cases of this sort of thing among Catholic priests. That being said, I think we have to recognize that there have been cases of preachers, pastors, imans, etc. from every major religion who have been pedophiles.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Once a pedophile, always a pedophile no matter what they choose to become later on in life, whether it's a priesthood, a high school teacher, a sales person, what have you. I'm sure the Catholic church is not the only religious entity who has had pedophiles in their system, but it is the one who has been put on the spotlight.

Diana

That may be true and I tend to believe there would be few or any exceptions but the statement only addresses the chicken and not the egg. Once a pedophile one remains so, does not address when or how one becomes so. I'm suggesting that not only do pedophiles choose to become Catholic Priests but that Catholic Priests who were not pedophiles when they entered the Priesthood sometimes become pedophiles later. In other words, there is a "becoming" not a "born as". As such the becoming can occur before or after entering the Priesthood. So, the Church needs to address both issues, not just the first.

How did you draw that conclusion? What's the difference between a Boy Scout Leader, coach or teacher who is a pedaphile? A convicted sex offender cannot get a teaching license either so that's a false assumption - to conclude a correlation between entering the priesthood and becoming a pedophile.

I'm not making a correlation, just stating an order of events. After, not because of. I do believe "becoming" a pedophile is a result of how one reacts to environmental factors but not suggesting entering the Priesthood or becoming a scout master is a cause of pedophilia. There are many potential environments in which sexual deviance can flourish. I'm not condemning the environments but rather suggesting that since the Catholic Priesthood is among those environments, the Church needs to address the not only the admitance issues but the "becoming" part of the process as well.

You've committed the most common of all logical fallacies. See this link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

Since you brought up the Boy Scouts, I actuallly do have some ideas about how BSA can and may be addressing both the admittance and becoming issues. Careful screening and continuous monitoring, are the general kinds of things that are needed. I would think something similar would work for the Church but again, they must address both issues, not just one.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that you believe that the environmental factors of being in the priesthood can have an effect on such deviant behavior as pedophilia, yes? Do you believe that someone who otherwise would not engage in pedophilia, would do so under environmental factors such as entering the priesthoold or becoming a Boy Scout Leader? Please explain how you are coming to whatever conclusion you are making.

Happy to. But first I must reject again the premise I'm making a cause and effect statement. I'm simply not doing so. Please read again the opening statement of the thread.

I'm saying people who have already engaged in pedophilia join the priesthood and become scouts leaders and that also people who have not and may not have even considered such behavior begin engaging in it after becoming Priest and Scout leaders and perhaps entering countless other environments.

Pedophilia is a behavior. Regardless of how it comes to be, regardless of whether one believes the cause is genetic or environmental, the behavior requires a certain certain environmental factors be present, even if the only critical factor is a source of victims. The pedophile may either seek a favorable environment after or find themselves in a convenient one before engaging in the behavior.

Well, I see no scientific evidence nor have I read anything that suggests environmental triggers such as occupation when it becomes to engaging in pedophilia. From what I've read and understand, pedophiles seek out occupations that put them into a position of power over children, which is the underlying reason why so many pedophiles have been teachers, coaches, priests, or Boy Scout Leaders. Even if they don't have a criminal record before working in such fields, most probably they have long fantasized about sexual exploitation of children and possibly engaged in child abuse prior to that occupation. Unless you can site some cases where a pedophile said he never had such desires prior to taking on that occupation, that's what is the conventional understanding of pedophiles.

Also want to point out that pedophilia is more than just a behavior, but a psychosis. Whereas a heterosexual or even homosexual person has sexual desires, they do not act them out forceably onto another person - we call that rape. That's an important distinction between the sexual behavior of pedophiles from what is considered normal sexual behavior. In that sense, they have more in common with rapists than just someone with a sexual desire.

[pushbrk 12,114]

In answer to the question, I don't believe any normal adult "becomes" a pedophile. This is a sick, twisted, disorder from which it seems to be impossible to be "rehabilitated." I can see how a pedophile would be attracted to the priesthood, and I can see why there are more cases of this sort of thing among Catholic priests. That being said, I think we have to recognize that there have been cases of preachers, pastors, imans, etc. from every major religion who have been pedophiles.

Absolutely. Well, I'm not sure what "normal" is and I don't think the twisted sickness is inborn or genetic but the onset of both behavior and tendancy can occur before or after becoming a priest or entering into any suitable environment of the behavior to flourish. In short, any behavior influence by environment can have its onset occur at any point in any timeline. In this case not just before a certain event like becoming a Catholic Priest. I appreciate both the prevention before Priesthood and the weeding out after being caught that is being done by the Church. I'm simply suggesting they additionally address in a preventative way, the part of the process that occurs between ordination and getting caught.

Edited April 15, 2008 by pushbrk

[GabiandVi 34]

Also want to point out that pedophilia is more than just a behavior, but a psychosis. Whereas a heterosexual or even homosexual person has sexual desires, they do not act them out forceably onto another person - we call that rape. That's an important distinction between the sexual behavior of pedophiles from what is considered normal sexual behavior. In that sense, they have more in common with rapists than just someone with a sexual desire.

Exactly. And this goes to the point I was making earlier. I don't think that environmental factors turn a normal person into a rapist. Maybe a rapist doesn't start raping until he is an adult, but I don't think anyone would suggest if we just change the circumstances an adult finds himself in, he won't become a rapist. I make the distinction between adult and child because I do think that experiences in childhood could trigger this sort of thing. But priests don't become priests until adulthood, so to "address in a preventative way, the part of the process that occurs between ordination and getting caught" is moot, IMO. You can't "make" a pedophile out of a normal person. If he is a pedophile before he becomes a priest, then he will be a pedophile after he is ordained. If he is not, he won't "become" one because of the priesthood.

Edited April 15, 2008 by GabiandVi

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Also want to point out that pedophilia is more than just a behavior, but a psychosis. Whereas a heterosexual or even homosexual person has sexual desires, they do not act them out forceably onto another person - we call that rape. That's an important distinction between the sexual behavior of pedophiles from what is considered normal sexual behavior. In that sense, they have more in common with rapists than just someone with a sexual desire.

Exactly. And this goes to the point I was making earlier. I don't think that environmental factors turn a normal person into a rapist. Maybe a rapist doesn't start raping until he is an adult, but I don't think anyone would suggest if we just change the circumstances an adult finds himself in, he won't become a rapist. I make the distinction between adult and child because I do think that experiences in childhood could trigger this sort of thing. But priests don't become priests until adulthood, so to "address in a preventative way, the part of the process that occurs between ordination and getting caught" is moot, IMO. You can't "make" a pedophile out of a normal person. If he is a pedophile before he becomes a priest, then he will be a pedophile after he is ordained. If he is not, he won't "become" one because of the priesthood.

Sexual assault in all its forms is about power. Everything I've read or understood about sexual offenders (rapists and pedophiles) is that the behavior was reinforced to them during their formative years, most often as victims of sexual assault themselves. I think the sex aspect of it often clouds the fundamental component which is a desire to have power over someone else.

[pushbrk 12,114]

Also want to point out that pedophilia is more than just a behavior, but a psychosis. Whereas a heterosexual or even homosexual person has sexual desires, they do not act them out forceably onto another person - we call that rape. That's an important distinction between the sexual behavior of pedophiles from what is considered normal sexual behavior. In that sense, they have more in common with rapists than just someone with a sexual desire.

Exactly. And this goes to the point I was making earlier. I don't think that environmental factors turn a normal person into a rapist. Maybe a rapist doesn't start raping until he is an adult, but I don't think anyone would suggest if we just change the circumstances an adult finds himself in, he won't become a rapist. I make the distinction between adult and child because I do think that experiences in childhood could trigger this sort of thing. But priests don't become priests until adulthood, so to "address in a preventative way, the part of the process that occurs between ordination and getting caught" is moot, IMO. You can't "make" a pedophile out of a normal person. If he is a pedophile before he becomes a priest, then he will be a pedophile after he is ordained. If he is not, he won't "become" one because of the priesthood.

I guess for the lack of a better term, I'm trying to be significantly more "nuanced" than the responses I'm getting. I'm not using terms that suggest certain environments directly cause one to "turn into" a pedophile or "trigger" pedophile behavior. I'm saying there is an environmental element to the development of both the behavior and the underlying mental illness. Pedophilia develops over time. Not only do Pedophiles seek target rich environments but the target rich environments serve as a nurturing place for development to at least SOME extent.

I find it difficult to imagine the possibility of a male child raised away from other children, in a completely adult environment would ever develop sexual desires for other children. There's just no stimulus.

Pedophilia, like any deviant behavior and whether also a psycosis has an onset cycle. That onset cycle can begin at age 10, 13, 18, 25, 35 or 50 and so on. So it stands to reason that some pedophile Priests' onset occurs after they become Priests, while already in the target rich environment and already in a position of power over children.

I guess if nobody sees this as a separate issue from preventing men who are already pedophiles from entering the Catholic Priesthood and also separate from dealing with Priests who are caught, then there's no purpose for further discussion.

I'm not bashing Priests, or the Church or saying the Priesthood causes pedophilia or turns men into pedophiles, no matter how many people can't seem to comprehend the difference.

I'm religious. I don't believe and am not going to believe people are predestined to certain behavior without freedom to chose and without influence from their environment but that's not the subject of this thread. It's not the subject of the thread because nobody is going to learn anything from such a discussion except that opinions vary and are strongly held.

[GabiandVi 34]

Also want to point out that pedophilia is more than just a behavior, but a psychosis. Whereas a heterosexual or even homosexual person has sexual desires, they do not act them out forceably onto another person - we call that rape. That's an important distinction between the sexual behavior of pedophiles from what is considered normal sexual behavior. In that sense, they have more in common with rapists than just someone with a sexual desire.

Exactly. And this goes to the point I was making earlier. I don't think that environmental factors turn a normal person into a rapist. Maybe a rapist doesn't start raping until he is an adult, but I don't think anyone would suggest if we just change the circumstances an adult finds himself in, he won't become a rapist. I make the distinction between adult and child because I do think that experiences in childhood could trigger this sort of thing. But priests don't become priests until adulthood, so to "address in a preventative way, the part of the process that occurs between ordination and getting caught" is moot, IMO. You can't "make" a pedophile out of a normal person. If he is a pedophile before he becomes a priest, then he will be a pedophile after he is ordained. If he is not, he won't "become" one because of the priesthood.

I guess for the lack of a better term, I'm trying to be significantly more "nuanced" than the responses I'm getting. I'm not using terms that suggest certain environments directly cause one to "turn into" a pedophile or "trigger" pedophile behavior. I'm saying there is an environmental element to the development of both the behavior and the underlying mental illness. Pedophilia develops over time. Not only do Pedophiles seek target rich environments but the target rich environments serve as a nurturing place for development to at least SOME extent.

I find it difficult to imagine the possibility of a male child raised away from other children, in a completely adult environment would ever develop sexual desires for other children. There's just no stimulus.

Pedophilia, like any deviant behavior and whether also a psycosis has an onset cycle. That onset cycle can begin at age 10, 13, 18, 25, 35 or 50 and so on. So it stands to reason that some pedophile Priests' onset occurs after they become Priests, while already in the target rich environment and already in a position of power over children.

I guess if nobody sees this as a separate issue from preventing men who are already pedophiles from entering the Catholic Priesthood and also separate from dealing with Priests who are caught, then there's no purpose for further discussion.

I'm not bashing Priests, or the Church or saying the Priesthood causes pedophilia or turns men into pedophiles, no matter how many people can't seem to comprehend the difference.

I'm religious. I don't believe and am not going to believe people are predestined to certain behavior without freedom to chose and without influence from their environment but that's not the subject of this thread. It's not the subject of the thread because nobody is going to learn anything from such a discussion except that opinions vary and are strongly held.

Okay. I just want to make sure that I'm understanding you. Are you saying that the traditions of the church are responsible for "triggering" or "onsetting" the psychosis? In other words, practices that have nothing to do with pedophilia coincidentally trigger it. If you think this, you are saying that the Church needs to change its traditions. I wonder what you think the traditions are. If you are talking about the fact that priests can't marry, then I don't think that has anything to do with the actual preisthood.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Also want to point out that pedophilia is more than just a behavior, but a psychosis. Whereas a heterosexual or even homosexual person has sexual desires, they do not act them out forceably onto another person - we call that rape. That's an important distinction between the sexual behavior of pedophiles from what is considered normal sexual behavior. In that sense, they have more in common with rapists than just someone with a sexual desire.

Exactly. And this goes to the point I was making earlier. I don't think that environmental factors turn a normal person into a rapist. Maybe a rapist doesn't start raping until he is an adult, but I don't think anyone would suggest if we just change the circumstances an adult finds himself in, he won't become a rapist. I make the distinction between adult and child because I do think that experiences in childhood could trigger this sort of thing. But priests don't become priests until adulthood, so to "address in a preventative way, the part of the process that occurs between ordination and getting caught" is moot, IMO. You can't "make" a pedophile out of a normal person. If he is a pedophile before he becomes a priest, then he will be a pedophile after he is ordained. If he is not, he won't "become" one because of the priesthood.

I guess for the lack of a better term, I'm trying to be significantly more "nuanced" than the responses I'm getting. I'm not using terms that suggest certain environments directly cause one to "turn into" a pedophile or "trigger" pedophile behavior. I'm saying there is an environmental element to the development of both the behavior and the underlying mental illness. Pedophilia develops over time. Not only do Pedophiles seek target rich environments but the target rich environments serve as a nurturing place for development to at least SOME extent.

I find it difficult to imagine the possibility of a male child raised away from other children, in a completely adult environment would ever develop sexual desires for other children. There's just no stimulus.

Pedophilia, like any deviant behavior and whether also a psycosis has an onset cycle. That onset cycle can begin at age 10, 13, 18, 25, 35 or 50 and so on. So it stands to reason that some pedophile Priests' onset occurs after they become Priests, while already in the target rich environment and already in a position of power over children.

Like the fox guarding the hen house? What do you suppose can be done to keep foxes from guarding hen houses without knowing they are foxes to begin with? I'd say it begins with therapy...every child victim of sexual abuse should receive thorough counseling until they are adults. That would a go a long way in preventing the cycle of abuse. As for the Catholic Church and The Boy Scouts - they can have a more thorough screening process that includes psychological evaluation of their candidates.

Here's something worth noting:

"Most pedophiles have scores of sexual contacts with children before coming to the attention of the cops," says Dr. Joyce Garber, a Monticello psychotherapist.

The question is, why? What makes a pedophile tick?

It's a complex question, say the experts. "We're only now coming out of the Stone Age and into the Iron Age in our understanding of this," says Peter Geller, a clinical social worker in Newburgh who has worked with sex offenders for 17 years.

What is known, though, is that most pedophiles were once victims of sexual abuse themselves.

"A pedophile often chooses a child who's the same age he was when his own abuse occurred," says Garber. "As the child grows older, the pedophile loses interest and seeks out another of the desired age."

By becoming the perpetrator, the former victim is able to re-enact his own abuse, this time with a feeling of control. (Like I stated earlier about power)

The vast majority of pedophiles are heterosexual males, according to several studies. Many have seemingly normal relationships with women and raise families.

Some choose jobs that allow them to work with children – not just for access, but to convince themselves and others that they're really good people, says Ken Lanning, a retired FBI special agent who spent 30 years investigating the sexual victimization of children.

"Take out the sex and they might be considered saints," says Lanning.

http://archive.recordonline.com/archive/20...12/bqpedoph.htm

[pushbrk 12,114]

Also want to point out that pedophilia is more than just a behavior, but a psychosis. Whereas a heterosexual or even homosexual person has sexual desires, they do not act them out forceably onto another person - we call that rape. That's an important distinction between the sexual behavior of pedophiles from what is considered normal sexual behavior. In that sense, they have more in common with rapists than just someone with a sexual desire.

Exactly. And this goes to the point I was making earlier. I don't think that environmental factors turn a normal person into a rapist. Maybe a rapist doesn't start raping until he is an adult, but I don't think anyone would suggest if we just change the circumstances an adult finds himself in, he won't become a rapist. I make the distinction between adult and child because I do think that experiences in childhood could trigger this sort of thing. But priests don't become priests until adulthood, so to "address in a preventative way, the part of the process that occurs between ordination and getting caught" is moot, IMO. You can't "make" a pedophile out of a normal person. If he is a pedophile before he becomes a priest, then he will be a pedophile after he is ordained. If he is not, he won't "become" one because of the priesthood.

I guess for the lack of a better term, I'm trying to be significantly more "nuanced" than the responses I'm getting. I'm not using terms that suggest certain environments directly cause one to "turn into" a pedophile or "trigger" pedophile behavior. I'm saying there is an environmental element to the development of both the behavior and the underlying mental illness. Pedophilia develops over time. Not only do Pedophiles seek target rich environments but the target rich environments serve as a nurturing place for development to at least SOME extent.

I find it difficult to imagine the possibility of a male child raised away from other children, in a completely adult environment would ever develop sexual desires for other children. There's just no stimulus.

Pedophilia, like any deviant behavior and whether also a psycosis has an onset cycle. That onset cycle can begin at age 10, 13, 18, 25, 35 or 50 and so on. So it stands to reason that some pedophile Priests' onset occurs after they become Priests, while already in the target rich environment and already in a position of power over children.

I guess if nobody sees this as a separate issue from preventing men who are already pedophiles from entering the Catholic Priesthood and also separate from dealing with Priests who are caught, then there's no purpose for further discussion.

I'm not bashing Priests, or the Church or saying the Priesthood causes pedophilia or turns men into pedophiles, no matter how many people can't seem to comprehend the difference.

I'm religious. I don't believe and am not going to believe people are predestined to certain behavior without freedom to chose and without influence from their environment but that's not the subject of this thread. It's not the subject of the thread because nobody is going to learn anything from such a discussion except that opinions vary and are strongly held.

Okay. I just want to make sure that I'm understanding you. Are you saying that the traditions of the church are responsible for "triggering" or "onsetting" the psychosis? In other words, practices that have nothing to do with pedophilia coincidentally trigger it. If you think this, you are saying that the Church needs to change its traditions. I wonder what you think the traditions are. If you are talking about the fact that priests can't marry, then I don't think that has anything to do with the actual preisthood.

No, I'm not saying anything of the kind. I thought I went to pedantic extremes to say just the opposite. My meaning will be better understood if you take me literally rather than trying to read something more into it.

[GabiandVi 34]

Also want to point out that pedophilia is more than just a behavior, but a psychosis. Whereas a heterosexual or even homosexual person has sexual desires, they do not act them out forceably onto another person - we call that rape. That's an important distinction between the sexual behavior of pedophiles from what is considered normal sexual behavior. In that sense, they have more in common with rapists than just someone with a sexual desire.

Exactly. And this goes to the point I was making earlier. I don't think that environmental factors turn a normal person into a rapist. Maybe a rapist doesn't start raping until he is an adult, but I don't think anyone would suggest if we just change the circumstances an adult finds himself in, he won't become a rapist. I make the distinction between adult and child because I do think that experiences in childhood could trigger this sort of thing. But priests don't become priests until adulthood, so to "address in a preventative way, the part of the process that occurs between ordination and getting caught" is moot, IMO. You can't "make" a pedophile out of a normal person. If he is a pedophile before he becomes a priest, then he will be a pedophile after he is ordained. If he is not, he won't "become" one because of the priesthood.

I guess for the lack of a better term, I'm trying to be significantly more "nuanced" than the responses I'm getting. I'm not using terms that suggest certain environments directly cause one to "turn into" a pedophile or "trigger" pedophile behavior. I'm saying there is an environmental element to the development of both the behavior and the underlying mental illness. Pedophilia develops over time. Not only do Pedophiles seek target rich environments but the target rich environments serve as a nurturing place for development to at least SOME extent.

I find it difficult to imagine the possibility of a male child raised away from other children, in a completely adult environment would ever develop sexual desires for other children. There's just no stimulus.

Pedophilia, like any deviant behavior and whether also a psycosis has an onset cycle. That onset cycle can begin at age 10, 13, 18, 25, 35 or 50 and so on. So it stands to reason that some pedophile Priests' onset occurs after they become Priests, while already in the target rich environment and already in a position of power over children.

I guess if nobody sees this as a separate issue from preventing men who are already pedophiles from entering the Catholic Priesthood and also separate from dealing with Priests who are caught, then there's no purpose for further discussion.

I'm not bashing Priests, or the Church or saying the Priesthood causes pedophilia or turns men into pedophiles, no matter how many people can't seem to comprehend the difference.

I'm religious. I don't believe and am not going to believe people are predestined to certain behavior without freedom to chose and without influence from their environment but that's not the subject of this thread. It's not the subject of the thread because nobody is going to learn anything from such a discussion except that opinions vary and are strongly held.

Okay. I just want to make sure that I'm understanding you. Are you saying that the traditions of the church are responsible for "triggering" or "onsetting" the psychosis? In other words, practices that have nothing to do with pedophilia coincidentally trigger it. If you think this, you are saying that the Church needs to change its traditions. I wonder what you think the traditions are. If you are talking about the fact that priests can't marry, then I don't think that has anything to do with the actual preisthood.

No, I'm not saying anything of the kind. I thought I went to pedantic extremes to say just the opposite. My meaning will be better understood if you take me literally rather than trying to read something more into it.

But you are suggesting that there have to be preventive measures put in place by the Church, as though this were something they could prevent. You asked if something about the priesthood creates these pedophiles, and my question is what about the priesthood could create pedophilia. And the question is Chicken or the Egg. I don't think I'm reading into what you are saying. I'm beginning to think that you mean that there seem to be a disproportionate number of pedophiles in the priesthood and how can the Church address this. I think that was what your original article was saying the Church was doing. If you have another suggestion, I'd like to hear it. This is not a challenge. I'm not defending the Church. I don't think that the Church creates pedophiles, but I'm not defending it.

[panamania79 2]

ABOARD THE PAPAL PLANE - Pope Benedict XVI said Tuesday he was "deeply ashamed" of the clergy sexual abuse scandal in the Roman Catholic Church and will work to make sure pedophiles don't become priests.

Please don't take this as a condemnation of Priests or the Roman Catholic Church, or make it one.

I just read this little sound bite and thought to myself, "Which comes first?" I always had it in my head that at least as many pedophiles become so, based on their environment over time. Sure, there may be some male pedophiles that seek to become priests but isn't it just as likely that their environment and associations after becoming Priests contribute greatly to developing the deviance?

Again, I'm not saying there's something inherent about vows of celebacy or homosexual tendancies that "causes" one to become a pedophile (Heterosexuals are pedophiles too.) or that the Catholic church's religious beliefs about the celebacy of Priests is wrong or evil. I'm just wondering about the chicken or egg issue. Surely in this context one comes first roughly as often as the other. As such, I'd prefer the Church address both the chicken and the egg. I have no suggestion as to how.

All kidding aside.At least he's finally admitting there is a problem and atrtempting to address it.For decades all they did was cover up the molestation.This problem runs rampid in my part of the country. I feel that pedophiles are drawn to the priesthood.If they would cut out the celibacy and allow them to get married,the problem would not exist as much.Believe it or not,the parents were in some instances to blame because they did not believe the children when they reported the molestation.They would be like,"Father so and so would NEVER do a thing like that."