The Chicken or the Egg

[sj5 4]

Some people think having sex with children its okay If they think this way, they needed to seek therapist.

[Chica Yeyé 41]

If a pedophile is born that way and some suppress it their entire lives, do you think there is something environmental that assists them to successfully do so? If so, so you think a change in environment would change their probability of successful suppression?[/b]

Absolutely! Example: Racism, Homophobia, Misogynies, etc : not natural, but taught and learned. And quite the aberrant behaviors.

I agree. Would you be kind enough to take stab at the remaining question above as well?

Absolutely! I do not know the answer pushbrk. I would certainly hope the psychologists, social workers, psychiatrist and other folk involved in treating pedophiles find a way of helping them live better lives without giving into the impulse of abusing our little ones. How? I have no clue. I do believe there is more to it than a change of environment.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Is there any deviant behavior you would not think is a result of being "born that way"?

If a pedophile is born that way and some suppress it their entire lives, do you think there is something environmental that assists them to successfully do so? If so, so you think a change in environment would change their probability of successful suppression?

Absolutely! Example: Racism, Homophobia, Misogynies, etc : not natural, but taught and learned. And quite the aberrant behaviors.

Full story http://www.alternet.org/movies/43472/

"And all during the night, he's molesting my daughter -- not molesting, raping her! -- at 5 years old,'' wails Jyono in "Deliver Us From Evil.'' It's a devastating documentary about Oliver O'Grady, the notorious pedophile priest who sexually abused children, including a 9-month-old baby, in a string of Central California towns for 20 years -- and the Catholic bishops who moved him from parish to unsuspecting parish, allegedly covering up his crimes.

Mormon 'prophet' charged with rape, molestation

A self-proclaimed Mormon prophet from Folsom has been charged with molesting and raping three of his daughters and a stepdaughter for nearly a quarter-century, couching the abuse in religious doctrine that he wrote for his followers. Allen Rex Harrod, 55, faces 97 counts of child molestation stemming from abuse he wove into rituals for his polygamous sect, authorities said.

His wife, Irene Harrod, who police accuse of helping arrange the abusive acts, also has been charged in the case. Their Sacramento trial is scheduled for May.

The case's religious overtones have surprised law enforcement investigators and Mormon scholars, who say that while polygamous sects are hardly uncommon, it is rare to see ritualized child molestation.

"It sounds to me like religion is his justification for what he wants to do. There certainly is nothing in mainstream theology that he could draw on," said Jan Shipps, the author of two books on Mormonism and an Indiana University/Purdue University history professor.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy110.html

[pushbrk 12,106]

Is there any deviant behavior you would not think is a result of being "born that way"?

If a pedophile is born that way and some suppress it their entire lives, do you think there is something environmental that assists them to successfully do so? If so, so you think a change in environment would change their probability of successful suppression?

Absolutely! Example: Racism, Homophobia, Misogynies, etc : not natural, but taught and learned. And quite the aberrant behaviors.

Full story http://www.alternet.org/movies/43472/

"And all during the night, he's molesting my daughter -- not molesting, raping her! -- at 5 years old,'' wails Jyono in "Deliver Us From Evil.'' It's a devastating documentary about Oliver O'Grady, the notorious pedophile priest who sexually abused children, including a 9-month-old baby, in a string of Central California towns for 20 years -- and the Catholic bishops who moved him from parish to unsuspecting parish, allegedly covering up his crimes.

Mormon 'prophet' charged with rape, molestation

A self-proclaimed Mormon prophet from Folsom has been charged with molesting and raping three of his daughters and a stepdaughter for nearly a quarter-century, couching the abuse in religious doctrine that he wrote for his followers. Allen Rex Harrod, 55, faces 97 counts of child molestation stemming from abuse he wove into rituals for his polygamous sect, authorities said.

His wife, Irene Harrod, who police accuse of helping arrange the abusive acts, also has been charged in the case. Their Sacramento trial is scheduled for May.

The case's religious overtones have surprised law enforcement investigators and Mormon scholars, who say that while polygamous sects are hardly uncommon, it is rare to see ritualized child molestation.

"It sounds to me like religion is his justification for what he wants to do. There certainly is nothing in mainstream theology that he could draw on," said Jan Shipps, the author of two books on Mormonism and an Indiana University/Purdue University history professor.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy110.html

I'm going to ask a moderator to make the above post invisible. Please do not bash religions in this thread or elsewhere.

[Chica Yeyé 41]

Is there any deviant behavior you would not think is a result of being "born that way"?

If a pedophile is born that way and some suppress it their entire lives, do you think there is something environmental that assists them to successfully do so? If so, so you think a change in environment would change their probability of successful suppression?

Absolutely! Example: Racism, Homophobia, Misogynies, etc : not natural, but taught and learned. And quite the aberrant behaviors.

Full story http://www.alternet.org/movies/43472/

"And all during the night, he's molesting my daughter -- not molesting, raping her! -- at 5 years old,'' wails Jyono in "Deliver Us From Evil.'' It's a devastating documentary about Oliver O'Grady, the notorious pedophile priest who sexually abused children, including a 9-month-old baby, in a string of Central California towns for 20 years -- and the Catholic bishops who moved him from parish to unsuspecting parish, allegedly covering up his crimes.

Mormon 'prophet' charged with rape, molestation

A self-proclaimed Mormon prophet from Folsom has been charged with molesting and raping three of his daughters and a stepdaughter for nearly a quarter-century, couching the abuse in religious doctrine that he wrote for his followers. Allen Rex Harrod, 55, faces 97 counts of child molestation stemming from abuse he wove into rituals for his polygamous sect, authorities said.

His wife, Irene Harrod, who police accuse of helping arrange the abusive acts, also has been charged in the case. Their Sacramento trial is scheduled for May.

The case's religious overtones have surprised law enforcement investigators and Mormon scholars, who say that while polygamous sects are hardly uncommon, it is rare to see ritualized child molestation.

"It sounds to me like religion is his justification for what he wants to do. There certainly is nothing in mainstream theology that he could draw on," said Jan Shipps, the author of two books on Mormonism and an Indiana University/Purdue University history professor.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy110.html

Indeed, pedophilia is not exclusive "prerogative" of Catholic priests brother Steve.

I'm going to ask a moderator to make the above post invisible. Please do not bash religions in this thread or elsewhere.

I don't think anyone is bashing a whole religion pushbrk, that is childish --- to think we all believe ALL priests or ALL Mormons or ALL.... are pedophiles.

Now, bashing the SOBs in the posts by SJ and Steve? You betcha.

[sj5 4]

Is there any deviant behavior you would not think is a result of being "born that way"?

If a pedophile is born that way and some suppress it their entire lives, do you think there is something environmental that assists them to successfully do so? If so, so you think a change in environment would change their probability of successful suppression?

Agree with Len regarding deviant behaviors.

As for the second question, I really wish I knew! I'm sure there are psychologists who devote their entire lives to figuring out how to effectively suppress pedophiliac tendencies. I can tell you that I believe the priesthood is *not* an environment that would encourage suppression of pedophilia, IMO.

check this links. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Dutroux

[pushbrk 12,106]

Is there any deviant behavior you would not think is a result of being "born that way"?

If a pedophile is born that way and some suppress it their entire lives, do you think there is something environmental that assists them to successfully do so? If so, so you think a change in environment would change their probability of successful suppression?

Agree with Len regarding deviant behaviors.

As for the second question, I really wish I knew! I'm sure there are psychologists who devote their entire lives to figuring out how to effectively suppress pedophiliac tendencies. I can tell you that I believe the priesthood is *not* an environment that would encourage suppression of pedophilia, IMO.

check this links. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Dutroux

Respecfully the subject of this thread is to discuss what, if anything, the Catholic Church can do about not just pedophiles entering the priesthood but about Priests who don't do pedophilia until after entering the priesthood.

If there's something about Mrk Dutroux you think would add to that discussion, please tell us what you think it is. Otherwise, please stay on the topic, to avoid a free for all.

[sj5 4]

Is there any deviant behavior you would not think is a result of being "born that way"?

If a pedophile is born that way and some suppress it their entire lives, do you think there is something environmental that assists them to successfully do so? If so, so you think a change in environment would change their probability of successful suppression?

Absolutely! Example: Racism, Homophobia, Misogynies, etc : not natural, but taught and learned. And quite the aberrant behaviors.

Full story http://www.alternet.org/movies/43472/

"And all during the night, he's molesting my daughter -- not molesting, raping her! -- at 5 years old,'' wails Jyono in "Deliver Us From Evil.'' It's a devastating documentary about Oliver O'Grady, the notorious pedophile priest who sexually abused children, including a 9-month-old baby, in a string of Central California towns for 20 years -- and the Catholic bishops who moved him from parish to unsuspecting parish, allegedly covering up his crimes.

Mormon 'prophet' charged with rape, molestation

A self-proclaimed Mormon prophet from Folsom has been charged with molesting and raping three of his daughters and a stepdaughter for nearly a quarter-century, couching the abuse in religious doctrine that he wrote for his followers. Allen Rex Harrod, 55, faces 97 counts of child molestation stemming from abuse he wove into rituals for his polygamous sect, authorities said.

His wife, Irene Harrod, who police accuse of helping arrange the abusive acts, also has been charged in the case. Their Sacramento trial is scheduled for May.

The case's religious overtones have surprised law enforcement investigators and Mormon scholars, who say that while polygamous sects are hardly uncommon, it is rare to see ritualized child molestation.

"It sounds to me like religion is his justification for what he wants to do. There certainly is nothing in mainstream theology that he could draw on," said Jan Shipps, the author of two books on Mormonism and an Indiana University/Purdue University history professor.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy110.html

Indeed, pedophilia is not exclusive "prerogative" of Catholic priests brother Steve.

I'm going to ask a moderator to make the above post invisible. Please do not bash religions in this thread or elsewhere.

I don't think anyone is bashing a whole religion pushbrk, that is childish --- to think we all believe ALL priests or ALL Mormons or ALL.... are pedophiles.

Now, bashing the SOBs in the posts by SJ and Steve? You betcha.

I think you concentrated too much with my post. Check my other posting.

now its you the one has aberrant behavior.

[sj5 4]

Is there any deviant behavior you would not think is a result of being "born that way"?

If a pedophile is born that way and some suppress it their entire lives, do you think there is something environmental that assists them to successfully do so? If so, so you think a change in environment would change their probability of successful suppression?

Agree with Len regarding deviant behaviors.

As for the second question, I really wish I knew! I'm sure there are psychologists who devote their entire lives to figuring out how to effectively suppress pedophiliac tendencies. I can tell you that I believe the priesthood is *not* an environment that would encourage suppression of pedophilia, IMO.

check this links. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Dutroux

Respecfully the subject of this thread is to discuss what, if anything, the Catholic Church can do about not just pedophiles entering the priesthood but about Priests who don't do pedophilia until after entering the priesthood.

If there's something about Mrk Dutroux you think would add to that discussion, please tell us what you think it is. Otherwise, please stay on the topic, to avoid a free for all.

I was just trying to say Psycholigist can't predict everything.

(nevermind i maybe in wrong forum, i saw someone saying about Pyschologist)

[pushbrk 12,106]

Is there any deviant behavior you would not think is a result of being "born that way"?

If a pedophile is born that way and some suppress it their entire lives, do you think there is something environmental that assists them to successfully do so? If so, so you think a change in environment would change their probability of successful suppression?

Agree with Len regarding deviant behaviors.

As for the second question, I really wish I knew! I'm sure there are psychologists who devote their entire lives to figuring out how to effectively suppress pedophiliac tendencies. I can tell you that I believe the priesthood is *not* an environment that would encourage suppression of pedophilia, IMO.

check this links. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Dutroux

Respecfully the subject of this thread is to discuss what, if anything, the Catholic Church can do about not just pedophiles entering the priesthood but about Priests who don't do pedophilia until after entering the priesthood.

If there's something about Mrk Dutroux you think would add to that discussion, please tell us what you think it is. Otherwise, please stay on the topic, to avoid a free for all.

I was just trying to say Psycholigist can't predict everything.

(nevermind i maybe in wrong forum, i saw someone saying about Pyschologist)

I don't think anybody suggested they could but the headline and article you referenced mentioning a religion is quite inflammatory and I personally found it offensive.

I have nothing against psychologists but I don't see how regular psychoanalysis of Priests is going to be a practical solution, no matter how effective. There are just too many people to interview too often to be practical, economically or otherwise.

If there's a solution for the "after" group, it's probably going to have to be on the order of self "policing" all the way up and down the ecclesiastical chain of command. That same "command" would have a better idea how to make that work. I'm equally baffled as to how they'll deal with preventing pedophiles from entering the Priesthood. Without any details of a plan, it almost sounds like they've knowingly allowed this in the past and will simply forbid it by policy in the future. Since I find that hard to believe, I'd like to hear more about the how.

[sj5 4]

I don't think anybody suggested they could but the headline and article you referenced mentioning a religion is quite inflammatory and I personally found it offensive.

I have nothing against psychologists but I don't see how regular psychoanalysis of Priests is going to be a practical solution, no matter how effective. There are just too many people to interview too often to be practical, economically or otherwise.

If there's a solution for the "after" group, it's probably going to have to be on the order of self "policing" all the way up and down the ecclesiastical chain of command. That same "command" would have a better idea how to make that work. I'm equally baffled as to how they'll deal with preventing pedophiles from entering the Priesthood. Without any details of a plan, it almost sounds like they've knowingly allowed this in the past and will simply forbid it by policy in the future. Since I find that hard to believe, I'd like to hear more about the how.

I apologised btw, This part may involve many years. Some people think about priesthood for a long time - even from youth. Some, after discovering the call, act on it right away. Others discover this call only later in life (for some, much later). Here some of the ways that often help to bring one’s call into focus: Reflection, prayer, and listening to God.

• Being involved in one’s parish
• Going to Mass regularly
• Receiving the sacraments
• Getting involved in some type of Christian or community service
• Trying to live a good Christian moral life

The Director of Vocations directly facilitates the on-going discernment process for individuals interested in becoming candidates for priestly formation in service to the Archdiocese of Baltimore. Individuals discerning Our Lord’s vocational calling formally enter into this period of discernment with the Director of Vocations and their parish priest(s) or another priest when an Application for the Admission of Students for Seminary Formation is requested.

[pushbrk 12,106]

Ok, in what on topic context do you offer the text in red?

[Jenn! 918]

Is there any deviant behavior you would not think is a result of being "born that way"?

If a pedophile is born that way and some suppress it their entire lives, do you think there is something environmental that assists them to successfully do so? If so, so you think a change in environment would change their probability of successful suppression?

Agree with Len regarding deviant behaviors.

As for the second question, I really wish I knew! I'm sure there are psychologists who devote their entire lives to figuring out how to effectively suppress pedophiliac tendencies. I can tell you that I believe the priesthood is *not* an environment that would encourage suppression of pedophilia, IMO.

Your bold statement above is our common ground. I would suggest any person you might see as born a pedophile but capable of successfully suppressing the behavior would be less likely to find success (suppressing pedophile behavior) as a Priest. Since neither of us believe the Priesthood is the cause, is it possible that we agree that for certain people, the Priesthood would not be a good idea and that any actions the church takes to prevent those who have already displayed pedophile behavior would be insufficient to deal with those who were born that way but have suppressed the behavior all their days before entering the Priesthood.

In other words, if we through out the word "become" and focus on timing and circumstances of the onset of the behavior, we can both see the additional issue.

We don't need to agree on the cause to see there's a problem to solve.

I think that pedophiles are drawn to the priesthood because they have a hope/belief that being a man of the church / having to take the oath of celibacy, etc. will make them control themselves.

I would wager that there are far fewer new priests that are pedophiles since it has come to light that it was not such a wise career choice. IOW, I think the Catholic Church will outgrow this issue.

[pushbrk 12,106]

Is there any deviant behavior you would not think is a result of being "born that way"?

If a pedophile is born that way and some suppress it their entire lives, do you think there is something environmental that assists them to successfully do so? If so, so you think a change in environment would change their probability of successful suppression?

Agree with Len regarding deviant behaviors.

As for the second question, I really wish I knew! I'm sure there are psychologists who devote their entire lives to figuring out how to effectively suppress pedophiliac tendencies. I can tell you that I believe the priesthood is *not* an environment that would encourage suppression of pedophilia, IMO.

Your bold statement above is our common ground. I would suggest any person you might see as born a pedophile but capable of successfully suppressing the behavior would be less likely to find success (suppressing pedophile behavior) as a Priest. Since neither of us believe the Priesthood is the cause, is it possible that we agree that for certain people, the Priesthood would not be a good idea and that any actions the church takes to prevent those who have already displayed pedophile behavior would be insufficient to deal with those who were born that way but have suppressed the behavior all their days before entering the Priesthood.

In other words, if we through out the word "become" and focus on timing and circumstances of the onset of the behavior, we can both see the additional issue.

We don't need to agree on the cause to see there's a problem to solve.

I think that pedophiles are drawn to the priesthood because they have a hope/belief that being a man of the church / having to take the oath of celibacy, etc. will make them control themselves.

I would wager that there are far fewer new priests that are pedophiles since it has come to light that it was not such a wise career choice. IOW, I think the Catholic Church will outgrow this issue.

I don't doubt they'll mostly outgrow it through attrition but that might take a few decades. Is attrition your suggestion solution? I doubt it's what the Pope has in mind but he doesn't seem to have spelled out a plan that amounts to more than that.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I think that pedophiles are drawn to the priesthood because they have a hope/belief that being a man of the church / having to take the oath of celibacy, etc. will make them control themselves.

I would wager that there are far fewer new priests that are pedophiles since it has come to light that it was not such a wise career choice. IOW, I think the Catholic Church will outgrow this issue.

I agree. Taking a vow of celibacy is a real attraction for people who have sexual issues. It's not the celibacy itself that triggers sexually deviant behaviors. There have been married pastors of other religions who've been caught molesting children.