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Study: False statements preceded war

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This stems from Hussein himself, spreading propaganda about big and bad weapons years back, so that Iran would think twice about starting a fight. It worked, so well in fact, that the US took it and ran...

He wasn't called a paper tiger for nothing. Though the US ignored the paper part.

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Filed: AOS (apr) Country: Colombia
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This is old news....The fact is that they, Bush, Condy, and Colin were using the best available intellegence at the time.

The premise here is that they intentionally mislead the people, and the world, to go to war. That's absurd.

The fact is that they did not use the best available intelligence but dismissed some of it in favor of testimony by the enemy that furthered their case to go war. Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi. Nothing more needs to be said.

Well if you say nothing more needs to be said then I guess that's the final word on the matter. Closed minds always dominate......

Please listen up everyone. No more input to this thread as "nothing more needs to be said".... :lol:

Closed minds? The fact is that Bush knowingly sold to the American people as fact what he knew the DIA had long since refuted as nonsense: that Saddam trained AQ in chem, bio and explosives. He simply lied to the public on this claim and that is well documented.

Well, here's where the one needs to appeal to ones common sense....." Bush knowingly sold to the American people as fact what he knew the DIA had long since refuted as nonsense: that Saddam trained AQ in chem, bio and explosives. He simply lied to the public on this claim and that is well documented.".....

If this were so he would've been Clinton'd, er... I mean impeached long ago. I'm afraid you're guilty of visiting far too many far left web sites and actually mistaking their drivel as "fact"............ :whistle:

The only reason why he hasn't been impeached is that too many in the Senate also voted for the war. No politician likes to admit that they were wrong. Maybe when the majority of those in the senate had either voted no, or were not in the senate at the time of the vote, might we see something done about it.

You mean Bush gets the privy of lyingcorrecting earlier statements but folks on Capitol Hill don't? Oh well... there go our Checks and Balances...

Wishing you ten-fold that which you wish upon all others.

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You can get a summary here for an overall rating:

http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob.htm

That is Bush's approval rating and not the number of people that think he "lied" to get us into the war. And it's range is 60-66% not 70%. If you notice the dem congress rating is 23%. http://www.pollingreport.com/CongJob.htm

So Bush is better liked than the dem congress!

Again, not what we're discussing. Its like bickering over which is worse, the synonym of bad or the antonym of good.

However, if you want to get hung up on irrelevant details, I'll give you a hint as to why Congress has failed to bring the troops home- Bush's Veto power.

Regardless, they do have a mechanism to overcoming Mon Fuhrer Bush's ostentatious power grab in Washington. And they have failed. Perhaps it has to do that Congress is a multivariable whereas Bush is just one insane liar.

Listen to yourself. Do you really expect anyone to take you seriously?

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This stems from Hussein himself, spreading propaganda about big and bad weapons years back, so that Iran would think twice about starting a fight. It worked, so well in fact, that the US took it and ran...

You mean the WMDs we knew he had because we sold them to him as our ally or the ones that Bush made up and ran with?

This stems from Hussein himself, spreading propaganda about big and bad weapons years back, so that Iran would think twice about starting a fight. It worked, so well in fact, that the US took it and ran...

He did more than spread propaganda. Just ask the Kurds.

Halabja_15.gif

I know, totally sick, and yet he did so while being our ally.

You can get a summary here for an overall rating:

http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob.htm

That is Bush's approval rating and not the number of people that think he "lied" to get us into the war. And it's range is 60-66% not 70%. If you notice the dem congress rating is 23%. http://www.pollingreport.com/CongJob.htm

So Bush is better liked than the dem congress!

Again, not what we're discussing. Its like bickering over which is worse, the synonym of bad or the antonym of good.

However, if you want to get hung up on irrelevant details, I'll give you a hint as to why Congress has failed to bring the troops home- Bush's Veto power.

Regardless, they do have a mechanism to overcoming Mon Fuhrer Bush's ostentatious power grab in Washington. And they have failed. Perhaps it has to do that Congress is a multivariable whereas Bush is just one insane liar.

Listen to yourself. Do you really expect anyone to take you seriously?

I do, I also remember when a politician lies as do the overwhelming majority of Americans.

Wishing you ten-fold that which you wish upon all others.

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Filed: Citizen (apr) Country: Brazil
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anyone ever notice the same ones who talk about a vast right wing conspiracy to get us into a war in iraq are usually the same ones that believe there was a conspiracy/us government involvement in bringing down the twin towers? :unsure:

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This stems from Hussein himself, spreading propaganda about big and bad weapons years back, so that Iran would think twice about starting a fight. It worked, so well in fact, that the US took it and ran...

You mean the WMDs we knew he had because we sold them to him as our ally or the ones that Bush made up and ran with?

This stems from Hussein himself, spreading propaganda about big and bad weapons years back, so that Iran would think twice about starting a fight. It worked, so well in fact, that the US took it and ran...

He did more than spread propaganda. Just ask the Kurds.

Halabja_15.gif

I know, totally sick, and yet he did so while being our ally.

You can get a summary here for an overall rating:

http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob.htm

That is Bush's approval rating and not the number of people that think he "lied" to get us into the war. And it's range is 60-66% not 70%. If you notice the dem congress rating is 23%. http://www.pollingreport.com/CongJob.htm

So Bush is better liked than the dem congress!

Again, not what we're discussing. Its like bickering over which is worse, the synonym of bad or the antonym of good.

However, if you want to get hung up on irrelevant details, I'll give you a hint as to why Congress has failed to bring the troops home- Bush's Veto power.

Regardless, they do have a mechanism to overcoming Mon Fuhrer Bush's ostentatious power grab in Washington. And they have failed. Perhaps it has to do that Congress is a multivariable whereas Bush is just one insane liar.

Listen to yourself. Do you really expect anyone to take you seriously?

I do, I also remember when a politician lies as do the overwhelming majority of Americans.

Prove that statement. He may have been wrong but I doubt the "overwhelming majority of Americans" think he lied. An overwhelming majority of dems maybe. I also remember someone saying "I never had sexual relations with that woman". Is he one insane liar?

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anyone ever notice the same ones who talk about a vast right wing conspiracy to get us into a war in iraq are usually the same ones that believe there was a conspiracy/us government involvement in bringing down the twin towers? :unsure:

Care to elaborate on that "connection" or would you rather spell it out for those that don't have impressionable minds?

For the record, my opinion is that Bush benefited in the known ways from 911: consolidation of power and the like. Does that make it a US Gov't conspiracy to kill 3,000 USC? Nope... But maybe you should run an opinion poll and get those crazy conspiracists to come out of the woodwork like Bolsheviks. The point would be to see how many VJers care about the obvious... that GWB is nothing more than a liar with a President's title.

Lucky me, I did not vote for that guy. My conscience is crystal clear.

Wishing you ten-fold that which you wish upon all others.

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Filed: AOS (apr) Country: Colombia
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This stems from Hussein himself, spreading propaganda about big and bad weapons years back, so that Iran would think twice about starting a fight. It worked, so well in fact, that the US took it and ran...

You mean the WMDs we knew he had because we sold them to him as our ally or the ones that Bush made up and ran with?

This stems from Hussein himself, spreading propaganda about big and bad weapons years back, so that Iran would think twice about starting a fight. It worked, so well in fact, that the US took it and ran...

He did more than spread propaganda. Just ask the Kurds.

Halabja_15.gif

I know, totally sick, and yet he did so while being our ally.

You can get a summary here for an overall rating:

http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob.htm

That is Bush's approval rating and not the number of people that think he "lied" to get us into the war. And it's range is 60-66% not 70%. If you notice the dem congress rating is 23%. http://www.pollingreport.com/CongJob.htm

So Bush is better liked than the dem congress!

Again, not what we're discussing. Its like bickering over which is worse, the synonym of bad or the antonym of good.

However, if you want to get hung up on irrelevant details, I'll give you a hint as to why Congress has failed to bring the troops home- Bush's Veto power.

Regardless, they do have a mechanism to overcoming Mon Fuhrer Bush's ostentatious power grab in Washington. And they have failed. Perhaps it has to do that Congress is a multivariable whereas Bush is just one insane liar.

Listen to yourself. Do you really expect anyone to take you seriously?

I do, I also remember when a politician lies as do the overwhelming majority of Americans.

Prove that statement. He may have been wrong but I doubt the "overwhelming majority of Americans" think he lied. An overwhelming majority of dems maybe. I also remember someone saying "I never had sexual relations with that woman". Is he one insane liar?

What is there to prove? What is common sense? Usually when nearly 70% of a population disapproves of the President's total, overall job performance, its because of the entire impression they get. Politicians have savy ways of redefining what a lie is and what is an inaccurate statement. I think that logical thinkers have the necessary skill power to equate them as synonymous.

And yes, Clinton lied in my opinion. If you feel like making unequal comparisons, as in having soldiers killed in the yellow desert vs sperm killed on a blue dress, then be anyone's guest and continue comparing apples and oranges.

Wishing you ten-fold that which you wish upon all others.

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Prove that statement. He may have been wrong but I doubt the "overwhelming majority of Americans" think he lied. An overwhelming majority of dems maybe. I also remember someone saying "I never had sexual relations with that woman". Is he one insane liar?

An MSNBC/WSJ poll had that number at 57% in 2005 - I don't think it got lower since then

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9981177/

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Filed: Citizen (apr) Country: Egypt
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These are my notes from World Politics and War.

There is no right or wrong way to organize war. Politics is war without blood and War is politics with blood. War is part of a political process. Politics is conflicting interests and values in society and how those values are allocated and by whom. Conflicting interests have to be recognized by some process. When War is a political process how do you solve conflicts?

  1. Vote
  2. Adjudication
  3. Bargaining/Negotiation
  4. Force

Mutually agreed solutions does not mean that the solution is fair just or right. Threats are often part of the bargaining process even coercion and violence. The line between bargaining and force is the intentions of the actors. (That is why this study is being presented now.)

The causes of War are at the Individual level and individuals matter. Greg Cashman points out in "What Causes War": as comfortable as the individual level is we have to be constrained. These individuals are constrained by the information they have at the time. They are constrained in the form of limitations. They live in an institutional environment politically where they are moved towards making decisions. They are constrained by internal settings. Leaders in the democratic regime are much more constrained and have to pay attention to public opinion. Leaders like Saddam Hussain didn't have to worry about constraint as much. Personalities are going to matter when going to war and have bigger affects.

Issues are sallent and our leader took an issue on the table such as an interest in the Middle East and that made it a higher matter. The degree to which individuals have on policy is to the level at which information is available. Top leaders matter cause they make choices and they matter when information is scares. That can happen when there is not good Intel or when there is too much Intel in particular contradictory Intel. There is ambiguity when it is not clear what is going on. The individual may feel more constrained to follow the majority line. Also leaders may have more of an impact when they are less experienced. New leaders are targeted to see what they are made of vs. seasoned leaders. They have more crisis's to deal with in their first and second terms then later. The crisis Bush faced was when someone took an action perceived as a great national threat. There was a perception on the part of the leadership that there was a very short time to manage the crisis. Plus there was the stress due to the short time. War rarely comes out of the blue. Peace doesn't mean a big love fest it just means it's not War.

Cashman goes on to explain under the psychological needs one of the factors associated with aggressive behavior in decision makers is they have low self esteem. They are hostile, nationalistic, and the aggressive behavior is to compensate for whatever deficiencies they perceive they have and compensate by going to war.

  • Dogmatic type- close minded, suspicious.
  • Authoritarian type- rigid, like structure, fascist, differentiates between superiors and subordinates.
  • Domineering type- dominating, president usually advocates threats and use of force.
  • Narcissistic type- needs to exploit and manipulate people and have a feeling of superiority.
  • Risk Taker type- for grins.

These personality traits have a propensity to be aggressive and advocate force. Cashman says, "Guess what, high political office seems to attract these types." Normal people self select to opt out of these political processes. You might go in normal but you aren't coming out normal.

So Bush operated under a mis-perception and the American people also had the mis-perception. Bush had limited Intel and perpetuated the mis-perception to the people. Discrepancy is something but was it deliberate mis-perception? The mis-perception is what is in someones head and the gap between psychological environment and operational environment of the real world. Sometimes leaders have false beliefs where their gaps of knowledge leads to uncertainty. The source of their information leads to making guesses. There is a need and tendency of policy makers to have simple rules and operational code and beliefs about the world that they apply to the world. Also there is cognitive consistency as another source of mis-perception. Brains believe what it wants to. For Ex one we've seen in the past: "No matter what soviets do they are bad."

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Prove that statement. He may have been wrong but I doubt the "overwhelming majority of Americans" think he lied. An overwhelming majority of dems maybe. I also remember someone saying "I never had sexual relations with that woman". Is he one insane liar?

An MSNBC/WSJ poll had that number at 57% in 2005 - I don't think it got lower since then

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9981177/

2007:

USA Today disagrees with you:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/20...bush-poll_N.htm

2008:

So does a CNN/ORC poll:

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/...ush-remain-low/

Then again, its all polling. For all we know, the real % of Americans that believe their Commander in Chief is a liar and took us to war based on lies may be even higher.

Wishing you ten-fold that which you wish upon all others.

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The leftie media have created the I hate Bush routine and then the little leftie followers swallow it and start shitein out all over. Its all about the cry baby,chad countin and praying i just wanna win bunch. another loss will totally send them over the edge, just watch :devil:

Edited by CarolsMarc

"I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."- Ayn Rand

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Prove that statement. He may have been wrong but I doubt the "overwhelming majority of Americans" think he lied. An overwhelming majority of dems maybe. I also remember someone saying "I never had sexual relations with that woman". Is he one insane liar?

An MSNBC/WSJ poll had that number at 57% in 2005 - I don't think it got lower since then

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9981177/

2007:

USA Today disagrees with you:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/20...bush-poll_N.htm

2008:

So does a CNN/ORC poll:

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/...ush-remain-low/

Then again, its all polling. For all we know, the real % of Americans that believe their Commander in Chief is a liar and took us to war based on lies may be even higher.

These are approval polls. To say that 70% of America thinks he lied because of this is just not true.

Are these people liers?

"Every nation has to either be with us, or against us. Those who harbor terrorists, or who finance them, are going to pay a price."

Senator Hillary Clinton (Democrat, New York)

During an interview on CBS Evening News with Dan Rather

September 13, 2001

"In the next century, the community of nations may see more and more the very kind of threat Iraq poses now -- a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction ready to use them or provide them to terrorists, drug traffickers or organized criminals who travel the world among us unnoticed.

If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow by the knowledge that they can act with impunity, even in the face of a clear message from the United Nations Security Council and clear evidence of a weapons of mass destruction program."

President Clinton

Address to Joint Chiefs of Staff and Pentagon staff

February 17, 1998

"The hard fact is that so long as Saddam remains in power, he threatens the well-being of his people, the peace of his region, the security of the world.

The best way to end that threat once and for all is with a new Iraqi government -- a government ready to live in peace with its neighbors, a government that respects the rights of its people."

President Clinton

Oval Office Address to the American People

December 16, 1998

"People can quarrel with whether we should have more troops in Afghanistan or internationalize Iraq or whatever, but it is incontestable that on the day I left office, there were unaccounted for stocks of biological and chemical weapons."

Former President Clinton

During an interview on CNN's "Larry King Live"

July 22, 2003

Regime change in Iraq has been official US policy since 1998. The Iraq Liberation Act of 1998, signed into law by President Clinton, states:

"It should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime."

Iraq Liberation Act of 1998

105th Congress, 2nd Session

September 29, 1998

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Prove that statement. He may have been wrong but I doubt the "overwhelming majority of Americans" think he lied. An overwhelming majority of dems maybe. I also remember someone saying "I never had sexual relations with that woman". Is he one insane liar?

An MSNBC/WSJ poll had that number at 57% in 2005 - I don't think it got lower since then

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9981177/

2007:

USA Today disagrees with you:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/20...bush-poll_N.htm

2008:

So does a CNN/ORC poll:

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/...ush-remain-low/

Then again, its all polling. For all we know, the real % of Americans that believe their Commander in Chief is a liar and took us to war based on lies may be even higher.

It seems that Bush, Cheney were determined to Iraq. Cheney even said, "There is no doubt in my mind that Saddam has WMD and chemical weapons." It meant that there was proof beyond doubt that Saddam had WMD and chemical weapons. Remember the last president election when Bush-Cheney always linked 9/11 and Iraq, even though 9/11 commission and all reports said clearly that they did not find any link between Iraq and 9/11. In UK, Tony Blair's Labor party lost many seats during the last parliament election and eventually Blair had to transfer power to Gordon Brown. The only reason for Blair's downfall was Iraq war. It is amazing that in USA, still people think that the war was the right thing to do. And Bush's aides tried their best to expose Valerie Plame, since her husband, Ambassador Joseph Wilson criticized this administration. Is there anyone who said what Clinton said was right? It is 100% wrong.

I have seen a bumper sticker a while ago, "Which is worse? Screwing an intern or screwing a country?"

I-130 Timeline with USCIS:

It took 92 days for I-130 to get approved from the filing date

NVC Process of I-130:

It took 78 days to complete the NVC process

Interview Process at The U.S. Embassy

Interview took 223 days from the I-130 filing date. Immigrant Visa was issued right after the interview

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These are approval polls. To say that 70% of America thinks he lied because of this is just not true.

The original poll I linked (57% say Bush lied about Iraq) is not - also if you read to the bottom of the USA Today article it reads:

•Sixty-two percent say the United States made a mistake in sending troops to Iraq, the first time that number has topped 60%.

90day.jpg

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