The Open Political Debate Topic.

[Jenn! 918]

From one of the clever young designers in the office, who was bored this morning

I don't get it.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Certainly. But that's not the same argument posed by that particular brand of Creationism which arises out of literal interpretations of the bible.

My personal view on this is that asking a modern audience to reject scientists' ongoing attempts to understand these phenomena and accept illogical, supernatural explanations is a bit unrealistic. I also feel that way about the general elements of religion that require a belief in the supernatural.

I am not saying that they are right or wrong, but that they do have the right to their beliefs. I think what you really scared of is that someone will actually believe them. On that note, I get the impression that the average person in America really believes that cavemen actually ran around with dinosaurs.

But back to the subject of teaching creationism vs. evolution in the public schools, this is one of the very reasons I don't believe that the government should be in the school system business. Like the Belgium system I was talking about, have the money follow the student not the school. Give the parents the tax credit or voucher or what ever instrument that you prefer to use and let the parents decide. If the are Christian then they will go to a Christian school, if you are secular progressive then chose a school like that, Muslim children may go to a Muslim school or whatever you get the picture. Then all this pledge of allegiance stuff and the creationism vs. evolution will all be settled. And the magic of this system is that if a school fails to teach the children it will cease to exist due to bankruptcy as the parents flee to a better school. That is what happens in Belgium. The students there speak 2 or 3 languages, are 4th or 5th in quality of education in the world, and the cost is half per student of the American school system.

Well you might not want to say that they're wrong, but I will. Me saying that of course amounts to simple disagreement, it doesn't amount to persecution, nor do it have anything to do with taking away their right to those beliefs. I'm not really concerned that others will somehow be converted by these beliefs, but that parts of the political system (like education) will be hijacked by people who do (for that reason Mike Huckabee is looking pretty stinky to me right now - if his professed biblical beliefs translate into public policy) with generally negative results.

I don't really know a great deal about the US school system, but I'm not much convinced the privatisation is a magic solution to ensuring higher standards, nor do I think that high schools pandering to every ideological bent (presumably with their own, individual course curriculums) is a good thing.

As for Belgium being a success story - part of the reason that the students there speak several languages is due to the ethnic diversity of the region, and to Belgium's place at the centre of the European Union. However, the way the schools are operated and managed is pretty labyrinthine too - and students still get means-tested public benefits to pay the tuition (hardly the capitalist ideal).

Pretty much every country in continental Europe has a better education system than the UK, and bilingualism is fairly common. I have several friends in Germany - one guy who speaks 2 languages in addition to native German (Spanish through his mother, and English through the education system). Even his girlfriend who hadn't spent much time out of Germany before she met him has much better spoken English than I do German.

[Dan J 277]

I have a HUGE problem with illegals saying there are 'American'. And I bet I'm not alone.

I'm sure you're not, and I'm sure we all know how you feel about "illegals" by now. However, someone that grows up in the U.S., attending public school, is probably going to develop an affinity for the U.S. Whether you want those people here or not (and yes, we know you want them all sent home asap), don't you think it's better that they *like* America and feel a loyalty to it than not?

Why? They have no respect for it in the first place!!! I suppose sending millions of illegally earned $$ to Mexico shows their 'loyalty' to the uSA?

PS: We're all aware of how you feel about them too, no need to finger point.

Cultural identity has nothing to do with immigration status. I came here from Sweden at a very young age, but i certainly don't consider myself Swedish, I don't even remember the language. Its very likely that children of illegal immigrants, if they came here at a young age are pretty just as American as you or I.

Its also unlikely that the children are sending money back home like their parents might. Once you are a generation or two removed from relatives back in your home country, your not as likely to send money back to them. But then, sending money back is not necessarily a bad thing. It leads to the kind of economic development we want in other countries to keep people home in the first place. We certainly can afford it.

[natty bumppo 297]

thought you & your hubby got all bent about people calling Americans "Americans".....doesn't that count for American schools too?

Nope, just hubby.

Dev, just because I don't want to play your games doesn't mean I have any up my own sleeve. I find your characterizing 5 year olds enrolling in American kindergarten as having no respect for the US to be kind of hilarious. I really don't think that's what they're concerned about at that age. I don't understand why you need to make every conversation adversarial, uncivil and rude. But I can't stop you from doing it.

I didn't know 5 year olds could self register for school ... could it be that 5 year olds need adult support to register ? Maybe illegal alien adults ?

[no name 1]

thought you & your hubby got all bent about people calling Americans "Americans".....doesn't that count for American schools too?

Nope, just hubby.

Dev, just because I don't want to play your games doesn't mean I have any up my own sleeve. I find your characterizing 5 year olds enrolling in American kindergarten as having no respect for the US to be kind of hilarious. I really don't think that's what they're concerned about at that age. I don't understand why you need to make every conversation adversarial, uncivil and rude. But I can't stop you from doing it.

I didn't know 5 year olds could self register for school ... could it be that 5 year olds need adult support to register ? Maybe illegal alien adults ?

[trailmix 77]

thought you & your hubby got all bent about people calling Americans "Americans".....doesn't that count for American schools too?

Nope, just hubby.

Dev, just because I don't want to play your games doesn't mean I have any up my own sleeve. I find your characterizing 5 year olds enrolling in American kindergarten as having no respect for the US to be kind of hilarious. I really don't think that's what they're concerned about at that age. I don't understand why you need to make every conversation adversarial, uncivil and rude. But I can't stop you from doing it.

I didn't know 5 year olds could self register for school ... could it be that 5 year olds need adult support to register ? Maybe illegal alien adults ?

It's interesting how someone can just skew something someone says here.

I believe the point was about the child, not the 'illegal alien' adult. I suppose if some non-thinking person is reading the reply it might carry some kind of message for them.

Edited January 5, 2008 by trailmix

[no name 1]

thought you & your hubby got all bent about people calling Americans "Americans".....doesn't that count for American schools too?

Nope, just hubby.

Dev, just because I don't want to play your games doesn't mean I have any up my own sleeve. I find your characterizing 5 year olds enrolling in American kindergarten as having no respect for the US to be kind of hilarious. I really don't think that's what they're concerned about at that age. I don't understand why you need to make every conversation adversarial, uncivil and rude. But I can't stop you from doing it.

I didn't know 5 year olds could self register for school ... could it be that 5 year olds need adult support to register ? Maybe illegal alien adults ?

It's interesting how someone can just skew something someone says here.

I believe the point was about the child, not the 'illegal alien adult. I suppose if some non-thinking person is reading the reply it might carry some kind of message for them.

Was that a skew too?

Edited January 5, 2008 by devilette

[natty bumppo 297]

thought you & your hubby got all bent about people calling Americans "Americans".....doesn't that count for American schools too?

Nope, just hubby.

Dev, just because I don't want to play your games doesn't mean I have any up my own sleeve. I find your characterizing 5 year olds enrolling in American kindergarten as having no respect for the US to be kind of hilarious. I really don't think that's what they're concerned about at that age. I don't understand why you need to make every conversation adversarial, uncivil and rude. But I can't stop you from doing it.

I didn't know 5 year olds could self register for school ... could it be that 5 year olds need adult support to register ? Maybe illegal alien adults ?

It's interesting how someone can just skew something someone says here.

I believe the point was about the child, not the 'illegal alien' adult. I suppose if some non-thinking person is reading the reply it might carry some kind of message for them.

So please explain how a 5 year old child self registers for school ...

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

I win IOWA!doesnt mean squat!...........................................OUR savior

Disapointment will follow soon!

[one...two...tree 2,762]

[natty bumppo 297]

I see you have no answer to the 5 year old question ....

[natty bumppo 297]

darn edits ....

I see you have no answer to a 5 year old question ....

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Those evil kindergarteners

[Captain Ewok 1,946]

Hi all. I saw a few posts that were not so friendly. This is a reminder to keep the respect level up for each other and not to resort to personal attacks. We will have to close the topic if that continues unfortunatley.

[slim 1,534]

Since this is the "Open Political Debate" I'll try to stay on topic (and to appease the good Captain I'll also try to keep it respectful) and rant with my political feelings.

First and foremost: The whole electoral system is corrupted and the "govt. of the people" is more of a "govt. that makes money from the people." Starting at the highest levels, through the media, and then into the decision-making and world-changing outcome. We start with poor choices for candidates then have a media that reports one-sided stories of how great or horrible they are and then we "vote" for them in a rigged-up election process where the winner is not decided by the actual number of votes. Kind of like voting for the prom king by having the principal tell stories of their exploits over the loudspeaker only to have the student advisors actually choose the winner. "But hey, at least I voted!"

Until that system changes to where I can elect someone (who's not a lawyer or corporate big-whig to begin with) to represent my interests, I choose to refrain from being a part of the system. And for those saying I don't have the right to b!tch about it because I don't participate, I'll ask them what they were doing while I was guarding our recon aircraft in the desert south of Riyadh on Sept. 10, 2001. I think I've more than earned the right to voice my opinion. And even if I didn't earn that right.... guess what? There's a 200-year-old parchment paper that says I can say whatever I want to say. And so can you. I've actively defended your right to do so. Now sit down and keep reading.

Secondly, America is and always has been a capitalistic society that was started and thrives on greed. The very reason we seceded from our British fathers was because the rich men in power at the time wanted to make and keep more money. Sound familiar? Now everyone's mad at illegal immigrants because they're trying to make some money here. The settlers of the New World illegally immigrated to make money. America has long been a place that encompassed people from all corners of the globe and helped them to make it in our society provided they assimilated into our culture in one aspect; GREED.

Greed, but not violence. Well, not anymore, at least. We've come to the point in our lives where we're scared to see people involved in a fist fight. Meanwhile there are folks willing to strap bombs to themselves and die for a cause they believe in. We don't do that sort of thing. NO. We buy a two million dollar remote-controlled airplane with a little camera on it and then we shoot a million dollar missile off to blow up our target. Is that civilization? Have we become more humane? Are we not still accomplishing the most basic of human acts; furthering our interests by the means suitable to us in order to secure our future?

Next I'll move on to our "status" as Americans. Most of the people here in the States feel they have some sort of elevated status over the rest of the world simply because they're "American." Is that because you have the purchasing power to buy that little "support our troops" magnet on your SUV? Is that what makes you special? Or is it the fact that you're able to justify this feeling of elevated status because the rest of the world, through your use of dominating global media, is pushed to see you as more "humane" than them because you would never resort to blowing yourself up for your ideals... only working 60+ hours a week to contribute to the system that makes it possible to pay for the "more humane" instruments of death, the remote-controlled bombs? That, and you sent $4 to the "Save Darfur" campaign after seeing it on MTV?

The fact of the matter is the current state of national and world affairs is likely to change very little in the next four years regardless of the outcome of the election. Some things will change; gas will increase in price, large groups of poor people will continue to die around the globe while developed nations continue to pillage their natural resources and do little to help the people or the stability of their countries, the temperature and weather will continue to get even more shifty, and the world population will continue down it's inevitable plummit into extinction.