Canadian baby 'first without gender designation' on health card

[Dashinka 25,868]

1 minute ago, CaliCat said:

 

 

I think the question here is why? Why is it reasonable to put sex assignment on a birth certificate, if that really means nothing? What difference does it make? There used to be a checkbox for "race" in some birth certificates, and there was a time when that was relevant. Isn't gender in the same class of categories that serve no purpose?

 

I think there are differences between genetic sex assignment and gender identity.

[CaliCat 3,957]

6 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

I think there are differences between genetic sex assignment and gender identity.

 

My question was why does it matter on the birth certificate? What is the purpose of having it on a birth certificate?

[Dashinka 25,868]

2 minutes ago, CaliCat said:

 

My question was why does it matter on the birth certificate? What is the purpose of having it on a birth certificate?

Aren't there some things that are still genetic sex specific?  Such as some medical conditions that either affect men more than women, or visa versa.

[CaliCat 3,957]

Just now, Bill & Katya said:

Aren't there some things that are still genetic sex specific?  Such as some medical conditions that either affect men more than women, or visa versa.

 

I'm sure there are but I never took my birth certificate to the dr's office. 

 

I guess my question really was why does it matter on the birth certificate? What is the purpose of having it on a birth certificate?

[Amica Nostra 4,803]

9 minutes ago, CaliCat said:

 

My question was why does it matter on the birth certificate? What is the purpose of having it on a birth certificate?

You might need to use the john at the Cracker Barrel in Asheville NC

Edited July 5, 2017 by ccneat

[Dashinka 25,868]

2 minutes ago, CaliCat said:

 

I'm sure there are but I never took my birth certificate to the dr's office. 

 

I guess my question really was why does it matter on the birth certificate? What is the purpose of having it on a birth certificate?

I guess I am just wondering if the child has a right to know later in life what genetic sex they were at birth.  If they don't have it on the BC, and the child is raised in a gender neutral environment, they may be forced to undergo genetic testing to find out.  I understand your point, but it still goes down to a difference between genetic sex assignment and gender identity.

[Mr&Mrs G. 903]

Just now, CaliCat said:

 

I'm sure there are but I never took my birth certificate to the dr's office. 

 

I guess my question really was why does it matter on the birth certificate? What is the purpose of having it on a birth certificate?

It probably has no use other than a way to monitor how many boys or girls are born within a time period. Maybe they can just add a third box to check for those who do not wish to be counted as boy or girl. 

 

But it's likely it serves no real purpose. 

 

Somehow my parents forgot to register my brothers name on his birth certificate and years later he went to apply for a passport so needed a birth cert, it came back as first name Male & our family name. Will still rib him a little over it.

[bcking 3,157]

26 minutes ago, CaliCat said:

 

 

I think the question here is why? Why is it reasonable to put sex assignment on a birth certificate, if that really means nothing? What difference does it make? There used to be a checkbox for "race" in some birth certificates, and there was a time when that was relevant. Isn't gender in the same class of categories that serve no purpose?

 

To answer that question we have to ask why a birth certificate exists at all.

 

It is intended to document the birth, and it is for record keeping purposes. It is for proof of where someone was born (for citizenship purposes, for example). It identifies the parents (or parent in some cases) of the child.

 

While I see your point and perhaps there would be a situation where birth certificates don't need it, as it stands now countries keep records of births with the sex assignment giving. What do they do with that information? I don't know but it is the standard for record keeping. It can also aid in identification of a person. As we all know on this forum, going through an immigration process requires a "thorough" medical exam. Like it or not, part of that exam is to confirm who you say you are, and part of that is whether you match the sex assignment on your birth certificate (if you don't, you would need to provide documented proof of why).

 

Could we design a system where sex assignment on the birth certificate is unnecessary? Sure, honestly if the BC is for identification purposes there would be a lot better ways (just register everyone with a drop of their blood when you draw newborn screens...would also help with solving crimes ;)). However, the way it is now it is standard.

 

I'm all for allowing the child to discover who he/she is as she gets older and it seems like the child will have a loving family that allows her to do so. It is clear they will be raised in such a way that the letter on the birth certificate, whether it is M/F/U, won't matter. It's not like the BC is going to be posted on the wall of the nursery or something.

 

EDIT:

I should mention my wife wondered why they needed to examine her genitals, and so she asked the doctor. The explanation I give above is what the doctor told her. They are examining to confirm she matches her identity. It is silly because you could still have a female posing as another female but that's the way it is. A lot of systems need to be updated and if we just had DNA or even fingerprints of everyone then we would have a much easier identification process. Of course I imagine a lot of people here (and everyone) would hate that idea because it is intrusive etc...

Edited July 5, 2017 by bcking

[CaliCat 3,957]

1 minute ago, Bill & Katya said:

I guess I am just wondering if the child has a right to know later in life what genetic sex they were at birth.  If they don't have it on the BC, and the child is raised in a gender neutral environment, they may be forced to undergo genetic testing to find out.  I understand your point, but it still goes down to a difference between genetic sex assignment and gender identity.

 

That's my point. It serves no purpose on a birth certificate, anymore than race does. There was a time when there were no birth certificates, and children aren't able to read their own birth certificates until they are literate, so it really serves them no purpose at all to have a box checked with gender or race.

[bcking 3,157]

4 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

I guess I am just wondering if the child has a right to know later in life what genetic sex they were at birth.  If they don't have it on the BC, and the child is raised in a gender neutral environment, they may be forced to undergo genetic testing to find out.  I understand your point, but it still goes down to a difference between genetic sex assignment and gender identity.

Well technically the birth certificate's sex assignment would only be based on physical characteristics.

 

So if the child wanted to know how they were assigned at birth, they could just look down  (generally, of course)

Edited July 5, 2017 by bcking

[CaliCat 3,957]

6 minutes ago, bcking said:

To answer that question we have to ask why a birth certificate exists at all.

 

It is intended to document the birth, and it is for record keeping purposes. It is for proof of where someone was born (for citizenship purposes, for example). It identifies the parents (or parent in some cases) of the child.

 

While I see your point and perhaps there would be a situation where birth certificates don't need it, as it stands now countries keep records of births with the sex assignment giving. What do they do with that information? I don't know but it is the standard for record keeping. It can also aid in identification of a person. As we all know on this forum, going through an immigration process requires a "thorough" medical exam. Like it or not, part of that exam is to confirm who you say you are, and part of that is whether you match the sex assignment on your birth certificate (if you don't, you would need to provide documented proof of why).

 

Could we design a system where sex assignment on the birth certificate is unnecessary? Sure, honestly if the BC is for identification purposes there would be a lot better ways (just register everyone with a drop of their blood when you draw newborn screens...would also help with solving crimes ;)). However, the way it is now it is standard.

 

I'm all for allowing the child to discover who he/she is as she gets older and it seems like the child will have a loving family that allows her to do so. It is clear they will be raised in such a way that the letter on the birth certificate, whether it is M/F/U, won't matter. It's not like the BC is going to be posted on the wall of the nursery or something.

 

EDIT:

I should mention my wife wondered why they needed to examine her genitals, and so she asked the doctor. The explanation I give above is what the doctor told her. They are examining to confirm she matches her identity. It is silly because you could still have a female posing as another female but that's the way it is. A lot of systems need to be updated and if we just had DNA or even fingerprints of everyone then we would have a much easier identification process. Of course I imagine a lot of people here (and everyone) would hate that idea because it is intrusive etc...

 

And I guess that is the real answer. It's a standard that no one, until now, had challenged. I agree with the birth certificate being a record for citizenship purposes, and for parenthood, for the purposes of guardianship. But all else, is really just fluff information for statistical purposes.

 

I agree with you that a genetic profile would be a better record, for it would allow for medical treatments and for individualized medical care, rather than the generic one or the other. We now have the technology to do so.

 

As for the medical exam you mention, what if your wife had 'male' on her birth certificate? She'd still be your wife, she'd still be the same person, and she'd still have received her visa. The only thing it would have proved is that someone made a clerical mistake on her papers, and one that no longer matters, because she could not have been denied her visa based on gender alone. 

 

I recognize the complexities, and of course, this is just discussion for its own sake, but when you come think of it, if all of a sudden the sex box were to disappear from all BCs, we'd still be the same people. 

 

[bcking 3,157]

8 minutes ago, CaliCat said:

 

And I guess that is the real answer. It's a standard that no one, until now, had challenged. I agree with the birth certificate being a record for citizenship purposes, and for parenthood, for the purposes of guardianship. But all else, is really just fluff information for statistical purposes.

 

I agree with you that a genetic profile would be a better record, for it would allow for medical treatments and for individualized medical care, rather than the generic one or the other. We now have the technology to do so.

 

As for the medical exam you mention, what if your wife had 'male' on her birth certificate? She'd still be your wife, she'd still be the same person, and she'd still have received her visa. The only thing it would have proved is that someone made a clerical mistake on her papers, and one that no longer matters, because she could not have been denied her visa based on gender alone. 

 

I recognize the complexities, and of course, this is just discussion for its own sake, but when you come think of it, if all of a sudden the sex box were to disappear from all BCs, we'd still be the same people. 

 

I actually don't know what would have happened if her sexual identity didn't match her birth certificate. Given how ridiculous most of the immigration system is, I would not be surprised if they would be flagged as potential fraud and investigated. I highly doubt they would have just said "oops well the birth certificate must have been recorded wrong, oh well". Especially considering they delayed our case by 12 weeks+ just because they wanted the copy of her BC that includes her parent's names and occupations.

[CaliCat 3,957]

32 minutes ago, bcking said:

I actually don't know what would have happened if her sexual identity didn't match her birth certificate. Given how ridiculous most of the immigration system is, I would not be surprised if they would be flagged as potential fraud and investigated. I highly doubt they would have just said "oops well the birth certificate must have been recorded wrong, oh well". Especially considering they delayed our case by 12 weeks+ just because they wanted the copy of her BC that includes her parent's names and occupations.

 

You're probably right, and that's where the system drags its wheels. First, if her gender doesn't match the birth certificate, it really shouldn't matter, because it could have been a mistake or the person might be transgender, and both cases support the idea that gender should be removed from BCs. Second, if you are going to marry someone, why should immigration these days care about the gender of your spouse? It doesn't matter anymore, and it wouldn't make your marriage more or less valid legally or socially.

 

Maybe Canada is one step ahead of the US, yet once again, in this matter.

[Boiler 47,487]

4 minutes ago, CaliCat said:

Maybe Canada is one step ahead of the US, yet once again, in this matter.

True:

 

 

[Dashinka 25,868]

3 hours ago, CaliCat said:

 

That's my point. It serves no purpose on a birth certificate, anymore than race does. There was a time when there were no birth certificates, and children aren't able to read their own birth certificates until they are literate, so it really serves them no purpose at all to have a box checked with gender or race.

I agree, and in a society like the US, and Canada that might work, but there are still a lot of patriarchial societies and countries out there even in Western Europe that depend on genetic sex assignment.  Look at China for instance with their whole one child program and everyone wanting a male.  How is that working out for them with all the males now maturing and not so many females around.  Gender identity is a whole other matter and those that question differences between their genetics and their mental identity need support from their loved ones.

 

I see your point, but if countries feel the need for this information for demographic purposes, then I suspect it is not going anywhere regardless of this parent and their lawyers best e e cummings impersonation.

2 hours ago, Boiler said:

True:

 

 

I did the Lumberjack Song at a family talent party.  It was great!