United passenger forcibly removed from flight after refusing to give up seat

[bcking 3,157]

8 minutes ago, Dakine10 said:

 The flight to Louisville was delayed for 3 hours vs a 4 hour drive. I bet United is wishing right now that they rented a car and drove their flight crew to Louisville. 

If the flight crew are passengers on a plane does that count as "on duty time"? 

 

If they are driving a car does it count? 

 

I wonder if driving a car is counted higher because they need to be "alert" during that time. Perhaps if driving was counted as "on duty time" it would then have interfered with their ability to come in the next morning ready for the flight they were supposed to crew.

 

I'm grasping at straws I think.

[Transborderwife 4,666]

3 minutes ago, bcking said:

If the flight crew are passengers on a plane does that count as "on duty time"? 

 

If they are driving a car does it count? 

 

I wonder if driving a car is counted higher because they need to be "alert" during that time. Perhaps if driving was counted as "on duty time" it would then have interfered with their ability to come in the next morning ready for the flight they were supposed to crew.

 

I'm grasping at straws I think.

1. No it doesn't.  Even for those working the flight, flight time only counts the minute you pull away from the gate to the minute you pull into the next one.  Lay overs, delays etc do not count.

 

2. Nope

 

3. They don't get paid for deadheading

[OriZ 3,165]

15 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

Well if airlines think it's safe to stick our poor pets in there, I'm sure it could work!

We actually flew our cat on united PetSafe all the way from Israel to here. We had a stewardess that was very nice and kept checking with the pilot and updating us on stuff like making sure we know the temps there are still ok and pressure and she's doing ok. We also asked once we were on board and she told us that she was on. However, supposedly they did almost forget her to start with and the plane actually had to go back after starting to pull out and pick her up lol. Then once we landed, we had an ordeal of an extra 10 hours we had to spend in the airport because some united personnel messed up her papers back in Israel so even though everyone knew she was physically on the plane and could see her,coming off it and into the petsafe area, technically she "didn't exist". She was never on it according to customs so they could not release her and I had to make calls across the world to get it fixed. Luckily the petsafe staff was great and let us in with her to see her and calm her down(after a couple of hours of sitting right outside where she was) even though technically it's not allwoed until they're cleared. Until then every time we would start talking right outside the door where she was in she would hear us and start meowing. And I'm sure it was horrible for her to see us as they were taking her in there from the plane yet then sit all alone and wonder why we're not coming to get her. Needless to say we got compensated for that as well.

Edited April 11, 2017 by OriZ

[IAMX 3,055]

28 minutes ago, Transborderwife said:

Is that legal?

Jokes are illegal. 

[bcking 3,157]

14 minutes ago, Transborderwife said:

1. No it doesn't.  Even for those working the flight, flight time only counts the minute you pull away from the gate to the minute you pull into the next one.  Lay overs, delays etc do not count.

 

2. Nope

 

3. They don't get paid for deadheading

So if a crew is scheduled to staff a flight that takes off at 7:00 am, they can be booked on a red eye flight to the departure destination the night before and if they are just passengers on that flight ("deadheading"?) that is "time off" and they are considered sufficiently rested at 7:00 am?

[IAMX 3,055]

1 minute ago, bcking said:

So if a crew is scheduled to staff a flight that takes off at 7:00 am, they can be booked on a red eye flight to the departure destination the night before and if they are just passengers on that flight ("deadheading"?) that is "time off" and they are considered sufficiently rested at 7:00 am?

Depends. Can they fly a plane upside down while drunk and on coke like Denzel?

Edited April 11, 2017 by IAMX

[Dakine10 5,452]

1 minute ago, bcking said:

So if a crew is scheduled to staff a flight that takes off at 7:00 am, they can be booked on a red eye flight to the departure destination the night before and if they are just passengers on that flight ("deadheading"?) that is "time off" and they are considered sufficiently rested at 7:00 am?

  Pilots on commercial airlines are required to have 8 hours rest in a 24 hour period. Technically they could give you 1400 to 2200 off then fly a red eye for the 7:00 AM flight. I think the nature of the business is you have to be able to do shift work sometimes. I'm not sure of the regulations for the rest of the crew.

[Transborderwife 4,666]

5 minutes ago, bcking said:

So if a crew is scheduled to staff a flight that takes off at 7:00 am, they can be booked on a red eye flight to the departure destination the night before and if they are just passengers on that flight ("deadheading"?) that is "time off" and they are considered sufficiently rested at 7:00 am?

I'm uncertain of the union rules, but I think so.  I know that for attendants you can volunteer to take a shift in the break period but not scheduled

[bcking 3,157]

3 minutes ago, Dakine10 said:

  Pilots on commercial airlines are required to have 8 hours rest in a 24 hour period. Technically they could give you 1400 to 2200 off then fly a red eye for the 7:00 AM flight. I think the nature of the business is you have to be able to do shift work sometimes. I'm not sure of the regulations for the rest of the crew.

What I was asking is if you are flying "deadhead" on a flight is that "rest period"? You aren't working if you are booked into a seat. You could technically sleep on the plane.

 

I'm wondering if the crew were in the following scenario:

 

1. They worked all day

2. They needed an "8 hour period" off which would have INCLUDED the flight, since they aren't working on the flight and they are booked into seats. I'm not sure if this would count towards an 8 hour period, which is why I'm asking.

 

I would argue that asking a crew member to drive a car for 4 hours would not be considered "rest hours". You aren't resting while driving (at least for the one person doing the driving). Not working on a plane you can close your eyes.

Edited April 11, 2017 by bcking

[Dakine10 5,452]

Just now, bcking said:

What I was asking is if you are flying "deadhead" on a flight is that "rest period"? You aren't working if you are booked into a seat. You could technically sleep on the plane.

  I'm not sure, but I think there has to be adequate sleeping accommodations on the flight. Large international flights may have beds but domestic I don't think they do. The regulations require the pilots to have 'uninterrupted' rest periods of 8 hours so it's hard to see that flying/driving in a regular seat would qualify.

[Transborderwife 4,666]

Just now, Dakine10 said:

  I'm not sure, but I think there has to be adequate sleeping accommodations on the flight. Large international flights may have beds but domestic I don't think they do. The regulations require the pilots to have 'uninterrupted' rest periods of 8 hours so it's hard to see that flying/driving in a regular seat would qualify.

I know that some larger flights have cabin crew beds in the back kind of like on a bus.  

[bcking 3,157]

3 minutes ago, Dakine10 said:

  I'm not sure, but I think there has to be adequate sleeping accommodations on the flight. Large international flights may have beds but domestic I don't think they do. The regulations require the pilots to have 'uninterrupted' rest periods of 8 hours so it's hard to see that flying/driving in a regular seat would qualify.

I wonder when the flight ended up arriving at its final destination in the end. It said it took off 3 hours late.

 

If it has to be "uninterrupted" 8 hours of time off, and the time on the plane didn't count, then in the end the flight may have been so late that the crew didn't get 8 hours before the following morning's flight anyway.

[Transborderwife 4,666]

Just now, bcking said:

I wonder when the flight ended up arriving at its final destination in the end. It said it took off 3 hours late.

 

If it has to be "uninterrupted" 8 hours of time off, and the time on the plane didn't count, then in the end the flight may have been so late that the crew didn't get 8 hours before the following morning's flight anyway.

I thought that it was established that it was going to Louisville, where the crew was needed 

[bcking 3,157]

2 minutes ago, Transborderwife said:

I thought that it was established that it was going to Louisville, where the crew was needed 

Yes I know. I thought it said they were needed for a flight the next morning, that they weren't immediately needed. Maybe I misread.

 

I was thinking part of why United wanted to get them on the flight was to get them to Louisville in time so they could get an 8 hour rest period before they work the next morning. Perhaps at the beginning the concern with driving is the 4 hour trip wouldn't then give them 8 hours of interrupted rest time before the next flight. But in the end because of a 3 hour delay, I wonder if they got it anyway.

 

Edit: Sorry if I was very convoluted with how I explained that. I'm going back and forth between here and editing a manuscript.

Edited April 11, 2017 by bcking

[Dakine10 5,452]

  Supposedly pilots are supposed to refuse to fly if something prevents them from getting rest, but it may not actually work that way.

 

http://nypost.com/2014/09/29/your-pilot-is-asleep-and-3-other-things-you-dont-want-to-know-about-flying/

 

    Pilots are stuck with the new rules, and no matter how fatigued a pilot may be, refusing to fly means big trouble. As a pilot, you don’t fly fatigued, you can’t keep your job. Don¹t expect things to get better. So, if you want a pilot who is fully awake after a full night’s sleep, don’t fly earlier than 10 a.m.. If you want to be sure your pilot’s performance is better than a drunk driver, steer clear of short flights after 7 p.m. Longer domestic flights and international flights that depart after 7 p.m. are not a problem in this regard because on such flights pilots are usually beginning their work day.