Muslim community organizes effort to repair damaged Jewish cemetery near St. Louis

[OriZ 3,165]

27 minutes ago, smilesammich said:

didn't ignore, i don't agree - evidence you provided not sufficient for me.

to be fair, you made this about the left being more antisemitic than the right and yeah, i thought that was absurd. i'm certainly not comfortable speaking of individual acts of terror (cemetery desecration, bomb threats, shooting up mosques, tagging swastikas) as the fault of political ideology. there are specific people comprising specific groups now (with trump's rise) operating within the right's political ideology (basically piggy backing, though ultimately they'd like to boot those on the right that are not aligned with white supremacy, the whole cuck thing) and that's where energy needs to be focused on the actual culprits, not on broad labels like 'left' and 'right'. i'm sure you take that as me dancing again but, you're getting my honest opinions, i have no cehst agenda one way or the other.

 

Truthfully, I said "Honestly, I feel more anti semitism these days coming from the left than the right"...the word feel obviously makes it my subjective opinion. But then it became clearer and clearer that not only do you disagree with that, but it didn't appear you think there could ever be any antisemitism on the left, so I just had to make sure. You and I are obviously never going to find common ground on this issue, in part because you've never had to deal with what Israeli Jews or even some American Jews as with the campus example typically have to deal with coming from the left(ironically, we were told the same thing not that long ago about not having to deal with what African Americans go through because we have white privilege). Also, at no point did I talk about ALT right, only right and left.

Edited February 23, 2017 by OriZ

[smilesammich 10,727]

1 minute ago, OriZ said:

 

Truthfully, I said "Honestly, I feel more anti semitism these days coming from the left than the right"...the word feel obviously makes it my subjective opinion. But then it became clearer and clearer that not only do you disagree with that, but it didn't appear you think there could ever be any antisemitism on the left, so I just had to make sure. You and I are obviously never going to find common ground on this issue, in part because you've never had to deal with what Israeli Jews typically have to deal with coming from the left(ironically, we were told the same thing not that long ago about not having to deal with what African Americans go through because we have white privilege).

truthfully, you also said "If I walked into a place here, say a bar, a restaurant, you name it...and you told me ahead of time that 90% of the people there are american white right wing activists...or if I walked into the same place but you told me that they are people from all over the world, and that 90% of them are leftist activists I would feel a lot more comfortable walking into the first group. That's not me being prejudiced against those people, it's my experience telling me some of those people will be prejudiced against me. "

and again i'll say i think that's absurd, i "feel" like my resulting comments were based on the unedited version of your comment (don't remember the 'leftists from all over the world' being there before), but i obviously don't have the original version. whatever. i had a feeling you would bring up white privilege and i'd like to one more time point out that i never said you were not entitled to feel more comfortable with white american rwingers than liberals. do you bro. i would like to know one more thing though, who all is included in this 'we'? the people that i've argued with here about the existence of white privilege as a thing, that we? and now you're trying to throw my argument (white privilege exists) back at me? not sure how well that's going to work out for you, if you're in the 'wp is a myth' camp.

 

[yuna628 9,882]

1 hour ago, smilesammich said:

maybe you misunderstood what i was getting at. you don't live in the uk. out of the articles you posted, i saw three that weren't about uk politics. i don't know anything about uk politics, i don't live there and neither do you. when i asked why you would be more afraid of a room full of liberals than altright, i assumed we were talking about a room here in america. i also assumed that you had links of antisemitic liberals in the united states connecting to the rise of antisemitism in trump's america and i guess you don't have anything like that. it's well within you're right to be afraid of whoever you want, but nothing you posted explains your stance any better to me.

i get that it would be easy to interpret a non-jewish or non-israeli person aggressively supporting palestine as antisemitism but i think if you would have asked that woman if she thought jews or israelis were sub human and worthy of extinction she would have said no. and that's the difference between a misinformed, overemotional, exists-in-american-media-bubble palestine supporting liberal and the actual white supremacists that have found a comfy home with trump and co. but you know the difference and how it unfolds for the oppressed, historically. my asking you to explain why you fear liberals more than alt right wasn't me saying you're experiences aren't valid, it was me trying to understand. honestly your stance is too partisan for me, and doesn't make logical sense. i do find it hard to believe that in every instance you've experienced antisemitism it has been from a liberal, surely not everyone had an identifying bumper sticker.

Anti-Semitism in the UK is a real thing, but it is also a real thing in any country in the world. Some are worse than others. It has exploded in the UK in recent years (xenophobia towards anyone really). I have witnessed anti-Semitism in the UK and racism too, taunting and seemingly racial comments towards Jews used in an almost 'casual joking' manner that should never be used in that manner by respectable people (usually ignorant young people). As I said before, one town in the UK holds a big community of orthodox Jews. I've been there. Lovely place actually, and it reminded me a lot of back home growing up. Despite that though, anti-Semitism is present and seems a cultural thing. You'll find instances of Jewish people being beaten up by gangs (though chavish gangs also beat up anyone). Other parts of the UK I've been to are worse, and would make me pause about ever going back to those areas again. The alt-right hasn't been so much out on the fringe there as it used to be in the US. They've had a longer time to culminate these groups. And those UK operatives are seeking to influence and do the same tactics here. I find that a lot of clear hate-crimes are not ever treated as such - and since Brexit these attacks have risen. Racism and xenophobia (even what I can only term 'casual' in nature) can affect anyone on either political spectrum. The Corbyn thing wasn't about him being anti-Semitic, but very much about politics.

[OriZ 3,165]

24 minutes ago, smilesammich said:

truthfully, you also said "If I walked into a place here, say a bar, a restaurant, you name it...and you told me ahead of time that 90% of the people there are american white right wing activists...or if I walked into the same place but you told me that they are people from all over the world, and that 90% of them are leftist activists I would feel a lot more comfortable walking into the first group. That's not me being prejudiced against those people, it's my experience telling me some of those people will be prejudiced against me. "

and again i'll say i think that's absurd, i "feel" like my resulting comments were based on the unedited version of your comment (don't remember the 'leftists from all over the world' being there before), but i obviously don't have the original version. whatever. i had a feeling you would bring up white privilege and i'd like to one more time point out that i never said you were not entitled to feel more comfortable with white american rwingers than liberals. do you bro. i would like to know one more thing though, who all is included in this 'we'? the people that i've argued with here about the existence of white privilege as a thing, that we? and now you're trying to throw my argument (white privilege exists) back at me? not sure how well that's going to work out for you, if you're in the 'wp is a myth' camp.

 

 

I just enjoy life's ironies. At the time you told several of us discussing the extent to which racism against african americans exists that we basically don't know what we're talking about since we've never had their experiences. Well it works both ways. Just because you've never exerienced prejudice from the left does not mean it doesn't exist. Regarding my quote yeah and? Still no alt right there. BTW it was completely hypothetical and not like I actually do it, nor could I in this area even if I wanted to where like 8 outta 10 people are liberal. 

Edited February 23, 2017 by OriZ

[OriZ 3,165]

8 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

Anti-Semitism in the UK is a real thing, but it is also a real thing in any country in the world. Some are worse than others. It has exploded in the UK in recent years (xenophobia towards anyone really). I have witnessed anti-Semitism in the UK and racism too, taunting and seemingly racial comments towards Jews used in an almost 'casual joking' manner that should never be used in that manner by respectable people (usually ignorant young people). As I said before, one town in the UK holds a big community of orthodox Jews. I've been there. Lovely place actually, and it reminded me a lot of back home growing up. Despite that though, anti-Semitism is present and seems a cultural thing. You'll find instances of Jewish people being beaten up by gangs (though chavish gangs also beat up anyone). Other parts of the UK I've been to are worse, and would make me pause about ever going back to those areas again. The alt-right hasn't been so much out on the fringe there as it used to be in the US. They've had a longer time to culminate these groups. And those UK operatives are seeking to influence and do the same tactics here. I find that a lot of clear hate-crimes are not ever treated as such - and since Brexit these attacks have risen. Racism and xenophobia (even what I can only term 'casual' in nature) can affect anyone on either political spectrum. The Corbyn thing wasn't about him being anti-Semitic, but very much about politics.

And again I would say in the UK even moreso than the US, it comes from the left just as much as it does from the right, if not more.

[yuna628 9,882]

1 minute ago, OriZ said:

And again I would say in the UK even moreso than the US, it comes from the left just as much as it does from the right, if not more.

I would urge caution to label the UK as in the ''left spectrum''. What Americans and those living outside the UK do, is tend to put the UK in a comparative bubble to the ''left'' and ''right'' that they see in their own countries. To be left in the UK is not really like what it means to be left in America. Nor is it to be like the right either. Righties from America, may get along with what some would describe as the right-leaning Tories -- but even the Tories would find some aspects of right-leaning America strange and not in line with their views. The Tories in the UK ran into a bad habit though of giving parties that bear not even remotely mild (by any stretch of imagination) racial overtones in their politics a mainstream appeal to achieve their end goal. And I fear this same tactic is being used in the US today. It's a dangerous game. We should not forget our own hostile attitudes towards Jews in America pre-WWII, but in the UK pre-WWII there was blatant Nazism everywhere (which harkens back to deep-seated historical events), including the real danger that the Crown would be supplanted by a Nazi-puppet-King. Hitler may have been defeated, and the UK grew to evolve and embrace the future and be more forward thinking regarding everyone, but there are some aspects I don't feel they ever got beyond. There's a few things here and there I've observed during my time there that's a real-eye opener. Even my husband did not notice until he came to America. He says it took living outside his country, to realize how much was wrong with it - regarding the government, racism, and culture. Don't get me wrong, he knows the US is a mess right now, but he's fearful of what his own country has turned into and worries it's happening here all over again.

[smilesammich 10,727]

Just now, OriZ said:

 

I just enjoy life's ironies. At the time you told several of us discussing the extent to which racism against african americans exists that we basically don't know what we're talking about since we've never had their experiences. Well it works both ways. Just because you've never exerienced prejudice from the left does not mean it doesn't exist. Regarding my quote yeah and? Still no alt right there. BTW it was completely hypothetical and not like I actually do it, nor could I in this area even if I wanted to where like 8 outta 10 people is a liberal. 

"just because you've never experience prejudice from the left does not mean that it doesn't exist" show me where i said prejudice doesn't exist. show me where i said you didn't know what you were talking about. you threw a hypothetical out there and stated your hypothetical preference, i was trying to understand where you were coming from and that didn't work out since apparently my options are to be jewish or israeli or agree with your hypothetical preference. i fully appreciate the irony as your attempting to frame it, though you're enjoyment may be lacking on this round since your grasp is off. you're moving goal posts and now putting words in my mouth. at this point i feel like you're only responding to get the last word, so - have at it.

 

[smilesammich 10,727]

39 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

Anti-Semitism in the UK is a real thing, but it is also a real thing in any country in the world. Some are worse than others. It has exploded in the UK in recent years (xenophobia towards anyone really). I have witnessed anti-Semitism in the UK and racism too, taunting and seemingly racial comments towards Jews used in an almost 'casual joking' manner that should never be used in that manner by respectable people (usually ignorant young people). As I said before, one town in the UK holds a big community of orthodox Jews. I've been there. Lovely place actually, and it reminded me a lot of back home growing up. Despite that though, anti-Semitism is present and seems a cultural thing. You'll find instances of Jewish people being beaten up by gangs (though chavish gangs also beat up anyone). Other parts of the UK I've been to are worse, and would make me pause about ever going back to those areas again. The alt-right hasn't been so much out on the fringe there as it used to be in the US. They've had a longer time to culminate these groups. And those UK operatives are seeking to influence and do the same tactics here. I find that a lot of clear hate-crimes are not ever treated as such - and since Brexit these attacks have risen. Racism and xenophobia (even what I can only term 'casual' in nature) can affect anyone on either political spectrum. The Corbyn thing wasn't about him being anti-Semitic, but very much about politics.

yeah, i'm not denying anything you're saying here and i agree particularly with the fact that the 'altright' sort in the uk is certainly more well established and looks different from what we've got budding here in the us. . i don't follow uk politics or parties and i was never trying to discuss any of that like i did, oriz gave me bunches of links that imo, were basically unrelated to the hypothetical he put out there.. i just haven't seen evidence of this "rise in antisemitism on the left" that oriz is weary of and it still doesn't make sense to me.

[OriZ 3,165]

25 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

I would urge caution to label the UK as in the ''left spectrum''. What Americans and those living outside the UK do, is tend to put the UK in a comparative bubble to the ''left'' and ''right'' that they see in their own countries. To be left in the UK is not really like what it means to be left in America. Nor is it to be like the right either. Righties from America, may get along with what some would describe as the right-leaning Tories -- but even the Tories would find some aspects of right-leaning America strange and not in line with their views. The Tories in the UK ran into a bad habit though of giving parties that bear not even remotely mild (by any stretch of imagination) racial overtones in their politics a mainstream appeal to achieve their end goal. And I fear this same tactic is being used in the US today. It's a dangerous game. We should not forget our own hostile attitudes towards Jews in America pre-WWII, but in the UK pre-WWII there was blatant Nazism everywhere (which harkens back to deep-seated historical events), including the real danger that the Crown would be supplanted by a Nazi-puppet-King. Hitler may have been defeated, and the UK grew to evolve and embrace the future and be more forward thinking regarding everyone, but there are some aspects I don't feel they ever got beyond. There's a few things here and there I've observed during my time there that's a real-eye opener. Even my husband did not notice until he came to America. He says it took living outside his country, to realize how much was wrong with it - regarding the government, racism, and culture. Don't get me wrong, he knows the US is a mess right now, but he's fearful of what his own country has turned into and worries it's happening here all over again.

No I didn't say they were the same, but I've also been in the UK...one of my times there I was in hyde park during a nasty demonstration that would make the blm/college rioters here seem like real peaceful folks. 

 

26 minutes ago, smilesammich said:

"just because you've never experience prejudice from the left does not mean that it doesn't exist" show me where i said prejudice doesn't exist. show me where i said you didn't know what you were talking about. you threw a hypothetical out there and stated your hypothetical preference, i was trying to understand where you were coming from and that didn't work out since apparently my options are to be jewish or israeli or agree with your hypothetical preference. i fully appreciate the irony as your attempting to frame it, though you're enjoyment may be lacking on this round since your grasp is off. you're moving goal posts and now putting words in my mouth. at this point i feel like you're only responding to get the last word, so - have at it.

 

No I'm responding because you keep twisting my words so it needs correction. Now you're saying show me where I said prejudice doesn't exist but yet when I asked you flat out you said that because you have no evidence then the answer is no. So which is it? Can't have it both ways. You either admit it exists or you don't.

[smilesammich 10,727]

1 minute ago, OriZ said:

No I'm responding because you keep twisting my words so it needs correction. Now you're saying show me where I said prejudice doesn't exist but yet when I asked you flat out you said that because you have no evidence then the answer is no. So which is it? Can't have it both ways. You either admit it exists or you don't.

no new words, so no twisting:

 

Quote

2 hours ago, OriZ said:

While he doesn't provide specific examples, again, you have examples straight from the ADL in the Corbyn thread.

 

And no, I'm not hostile, definitely not as hostile as the hostility I've encountered from some on the left as an Israeli Jew. But before we leave it at that lets see if you can quit dancing around the issue and just answer me this one simple question - do you or do you not believe there are some on the left, who aren't perfect little peace and justice seeking angels, who have alterior motives and hatred in their hearts(just not necessarily always for the same people as the alt right) or do you think that just doesn't exist?

dude, i don't believe things without evidence. i have never in my life met a person who is a liberal who believes jews need to be exterminated. ever. i asked you for examples and i'm not convinced by those examples. now, if you want to ask me if it is possible that a liberal could also believe that jews must be exterminated, that they are evil, inhuman, soulless etc etc i'd say; anything is possible but i'd be more inclined to assume such a character a provocateur which no actual allegiance to liberal ideology.

saying 'ulterior motives and hatred' kind of numbs antisemitism into something less than menacing in comparison to those who literally want to kill based on ethnicity/religion.

 

[yuna628 9,882]

1 hour ago, OriZ said:

No I didn't say they were the same, but I've also been in the UK...one of my times there I was in hyde park during a nasty demonstration that would make the blm/college rioters here seem like real peaceful folks. 

 

No I'm responding because you keep twisting my words so it needs correction. Now you're saying show me where I said prejudice doesn't exist but yet when I asked you flat out you said that because you have no evidence then the answer is no. So which is it? Can't have it both ways. You either admit it exists or you don't.

No doubt, you'd see that in London. Dissent is very vigorous in the UK, often moreso than here in the disrespectful region, because of how the government behaves toward any dissent or free speech and how out of touch that government and system is with it's people. The more aggressive and rights-violating the more hostile the environment becomes. During the leadup to Brexit, you could find hostilities towards Americans, Jews, Muslims, any immigrant from anywhere, and any faith or culture other than ''nationalist England''. This tapped into an overwhelming and seedy underbelly of sentiment and brought it forward. Those people you saw demonstrating? Most likely aren't defined as any ''liberal American'' would. They'd be closer to anarchists or a type of movement the average American liberal would not exactly want to be a part of.

[OriZ 3,165]

6 hours ago, yuna628 said:

No doubt, you'd see that in London. Dissent is very vigorous in the UK, often moreso than here in the disrespectful region, because of how the government behaves toward any dissent or free speech and how out of touch that government and system is with it's people. The more aggressive and rights-violating the more hostile the environment becomes. During the leadup to Brexit, you could find hostilities towards Americans, Jews, Muslims, any immigrant from anywhere, and any faith or culture other than ''nationalist England''. This tapped into an overwhelming and seedy underbelly of sentiment and brought it forward. Those people you saw demonstrating? Most likely aren't defined as any ''liberal American'' would. They'd be closer to anarchists or a type of movement the average American liberal would not exactly want to be a part of.

 

8 hours ago, smilesammich said:

no new words, so no twisting:

 

 

Considering I was talking about the right, not the alt right, are you suggesting that the right wants to exterminate people? I guess what is absurd to you is life to me so I guess that's just where it stands. 

 

The left's issue is that it doesn't want to recognize the fact it's got some rotten apples within its ranks as well, at least the right for the most part is willing to acknowledge that. Till the left wants to acknowledge that they can be just as prejudiced as some on the right, nothing is going to change about how some of us feel about them. The reason I feel more comfortable around the right is not because I am scared of anybody, because I'm certainly not. As you know I have several views that don't really conform to your typical right wing view. My view on drugs, healthcare, the death penalty, gay marriage, to name a few and there's others. Yet no one from the right has ever jumped on me for expressing these views in the same way some on the left like to gang up on anybody they disagree with. So there is plenty of acceptance and tolerance on the right just as there is plenty of the opposite on the left. We may disagree about the extent in each, but I think it's quite a reach to say it doesn't exist at all in liberal circles.

[CaliCat 3,957]

The fund keeps growing. Even so-called VP Pence joined in for the photo-op.

 

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/muslim-fundraiser-repair-jewish-cemetery-raises-100k-n724221

 

 

Muslim Fundraiser to Repair Jewish Cemetery Raises $100k

by MARY EMILY O'HARA

• SHARE
• Share
• Tweet
• Share
•  
• Email
• Print

In just over 24 hours, an online fundraiser encouraging Muslims to donate to repair vandalism at a Jewish cemetery has raised over $100,000.

The LaunchGood.com fundraising page set up by Linda Sarsour of MPower Change and Celebrate Mercy's Tarek El-Messidi — garnered $20,000 in donations in its first three hours alone, shortly after being launched on Tuesday.

"People in a cemetery should be able to rest in peace," Sarsour said on MSNBC Wednesday, telling Andrea Mitchell that she "expected nothing less from my community, who has always been a generous community."

View image on Twitter

 

 Follow

Linda Sarsour 

 

✔@lsarsour

We are almost there. Help repair the St. Louis Jewish cemetery. Donate what you can. https://www.launchgood.com/project/muslims_unite_to_repair_jewish_cemetery#/ …

3:29 PM - 21 Feb 2017

•  
•  
•  
   1,6691,669 Retweets
•  
•  
   2,7652,765 likes

 

 

They launched the campaign after 180 gravestones were toppled, some broken, at the Chesed Shel Emeth Cemetery just outside of St. Louis, Missouri over the weekend.

NBC affiliate KSDK reported Tuesday that police in the University City suburb are investigating the incident and examining surveillance videos. No suspects have been identified.

El-Messidi, whose Philadelphia-based organization Celebrate Mercy creates interactive webcasts and videos that teach about the Prophet Muhammad, told NBC News that about two-thirds of those donating appear to be Muslim, while the remainder are largely Jewish.

"One of the silver linings of all this divisiveness and hate rhetoric has been the two communities coming together," said El-Messidi. "Historically, we did not work together. People are putting their politics aside and working to fight bigotry together."

A request for comment sent to the Chesed Shel Emeth Society did not get an immediate response, but the Jewish Federation of St. Louis said in a statement that the restoration effort is "going to need professional help as the monuments weigh thousands of pounds."

Play

• Facebook
• Twitter
• Google Plus
• Embed

 Pence Condemns Jewish Cemetery Vandalism During St. Louis Visit 0:42

The federation also set up an "emergency response" fund to raise money for the cemetery repairs, and said any funds raised beyond the needs of Chesed Shel Emeth Society "will be used to support the growing security needs of the Jewish community."

Sarsour and El-Messidi's fundraiser will remain open for donations until March 21st.

The fundraiser isn't just bringing in dollars. El-Messidi told NBC News that over 100 messages have been received through the webpage — many from American Jews moved by the Muslim community's support.

The incident at Chesed Shel Emeth Cemetery drew the attention of Vice President Mike Pence, who visited the St. Louis site on Wednesday.

 

Mike Pence and Missouri Gov. Eric Greitens view damage at the Chesed Shel Emeth Cemetery on Wednesday, Feb. 22, 2017. J.B. Forbes / St. Louis Post-Dispatch via AP

"We condemn this vile act of vandalism and those who perpetrate it in the strongest possible terms," Pence said during an appearance prior to the visit.

When asked what he might say to Pence or President Donald Trump if given the chance, El-Messidi noted that while both spoke out against antisemitism this week, neither has issued remarks condemning the rise of anti-Muslim hate groups or the increase of violent attacks and threats against the American Muslim community.

"They need to take a firm stance," El-Messidi said. "It starts with an apology."

He said that the Trump administration appears to mistakenly conflate radical Islamist terror groups like ISIS with peaceful American Muslims — and that such a comparison leads to more hate.

"We are tired of being grouped along with the crazies, they scare us just as much as any American," El-Messidi said. "We need the administration to talk about the 3 million Muslim Americans who just want to pursue life, liberty, and happiness just like everyone else here in America."