honeymoon with the WHOLE family?

[jordanianprincess 0]

I just have one question for you Liz, what is the deal with your obsession with Feminism? Why do women have to be feminists. You stated earlier that Abdel was feminist enough in his views to stay home while you went out to support the family, when in fact a feminist would never accept that.

Can you explain this JP? I don't understand how that would be unacceptable to a feminist. Feminism means having choices for women rather than presumed roles.

If he was a feminist then he would not stay home. Maybe he is ok with her being a feminist and staying home himself but that doesnt make him a feminist. She is the feminist.

I'm sorry. I'm still not following. He is a feminist if he supports that she has a choice to be the one to go out and work. He would also still be a feminist if he went out to work while she stayed home, if that was what she wanted. He would *not* be a feminist if he were to insist that he worked instead of her even if that was against her will.

To me it sounds like you're kind of using the word feminist to mean "gentleman" in the traditional sense. I think being ok with her going out and working while he stays home is exactly what makes him a feminist.

How does him staying him make him a feminist? He is not staying home by choice and I'm pretty darn sure that he would work if given the chance too. Liz has always worked and even before he came here. Also given the fact that he wants to send money home. As Liz has mentioned in previous posts, he doesn't like the fact that he can't freely send money home to his family. Given that why would he want to stay at home? I dont think being a gentleman in a traditonal sense mean feminist. She is obviously a feminist which is fine. But the fact that he is staying home is not in support of that, its has more to do with the fact that he has not been in this country that long and has not found steady work yet.

Sorry, I was going off of your statements not any that Liz has made previously: "You stated earlier that Abdel was feminist enough in his views to stay home while you went out to support the family, when in fact a feminist would never accept that." And then also you said, "Maybe he is ok with her being a feminist and staying home himself but that doesnt make him a feminist". I thought from these two statements that your comments were made under the assumption that he was ok with the choice that had been made. Sorry for any confusion.

No prob Jenn, but just to clarify, a man staying home and not working (not in reference to Abdel) doesn't make him a feminist. It could mean many things.

[doodlebug 3]

[Ban Hammer 12,861]

see what you started?

[jordanianprincess 0]

I just have one question for you Liz, what is the deal with your obsession with Feminism? Why do women have to be feminists. You stated earlier that Abdel was feminist enough in his views to stay home while you went out to support the family, when in fact a feminist would never accept that.

Can you explain this JP? I don't understand how that would be unacceptable to a feminist. Feminism means having choices for women rather than presumed roles.

If he was a feminist then he would not stay home. Maybe he is ok with her being a feminist and staying home himself but that doesnt make him a feminist. She is the feminist.

I'm sorry. I'm still not following. He is a feminist if he supports that she has a choice to be the one to go out and work. He would also still be a feminist if he went out to work while she stayed home, if that was what she wanted. He would *not* be a feminist if he were to insist that he worked instead of her even if that was against her will.

To me it sounds like you're kind of using the word feminist to mean "gentleman" in the traditional sense. I think being ok with her going out and working while he stays home is exactly what makes him a feminist.

How does him staying him make him a feminist? He is not staying home by choice and I'm pretty darn sure that he would work if given the chance too. Liz has always worked and even before he came here. Also given the fact that he wants to send money home. As Liz has mentioned in previous posts, he doesn't like the fact that he can't freely send money home to his family. Given that why would he want to stay at home? I dont think being a gentleman in a traditonal sense mean feminist. She is obviously a feminist which is fine. But the fact that he is staying home is not in support of that, its has more to do with the fact that he has not been in this country that long and has not found steady work yet.

His staying home does not, by definition, make him a feminist. Nor does it exclude the possibility.

It is incredibly sad to me when women attack the choices other women make be it for themselves or for their families. Cetainly no one here condemns those who choose to abstain until marriage. But, when that choice is forced on others through guilt or law, something is wrong.

I'm sorry can you tell me who is being forced?

[rebeccajo 14]

Girls.....

'sleeping around' does not equal 'feminist'. Ok?

True, but not supporting the option to if one so chooses does equal "not feminist".

I thought feminism was about women's rights under the law. Not about what they do or don't do in the bedroom.

Who, when and why you have sex with someone is about personal choice. Which - right now - isn't governed by any enforceable law. Thank heavens.

[deeshla 0]

Girls.....

'sleeping around' does not equal 'feminist'. Ok?

Duh. Feminism is the belief that women and men have equal rights. Period. It is about women having choice. People are so afraid of the damn word. What is so scary about equal rights and choice? Anti-feminism comes in when people are prescribing roles and "morality" to all women, regardless of that woman's choice. A fully hijabed woman who waited until marriage to have sex can be just as much of a feminist as a non-married non-religious woman who has sex with people she chooses.

Dur!

[chri'stina 190]

Girls.....

'sleeping around' does not equal 'feminist'. Ok?

I agree.

I don't understand why someone wouldn't be a feminist just because they do read religious books a lot and don't want to have sex before marriage.

If by "feminist" it means someone who believes that a woman should be able to decide if she wants a career or not, that a woman should not be discriminated against for any reasons...then I am a feminist.

If, on the other hand, someone defines "feminist" as meaning someone who thinks sex outside of marriage is fine and encourages it just because it is not looked down upon so much anymore, then I am not a feminist.

Yet, I don't see how sex after marriage would in any way dimish someone's role as a feminist. What about men who also believe in waiting until marriage to have sex? Yes there are those out there too.

For the record, I don't technically consider myself a feminist, although I do believe a woman should choose whether she wants to work or stay home, and should get equal opportunities in society/the workplace as anyone else. But what feminist has become to mean in some aspects, is not something I can really identify with.

** I realize in the time it took me to write this, this has already been answered basically. Sorry!

Edited October 13, 2006 by stina&suj

[Jenn! 918]

No prob Jenn, but just to clarify, a man staying home and not working (not in reference to Abdel) doesn't make him a feminist. It could mean many things.

But I think the only men who would *not* qualify as feminists (at least when it comes to the working women issue) are those who would force their wife to stay home because they felt it was her role to do so, OR force their wife to be the sole bread-winner again because they felt it was her role. I think we just haven't different views on what feminism is. I believe it is characterized by supporting women's choices to either accept or reject traditional gender roles.

[rebeccajo 14]

Feminism is about women having the same opportunities as men. That's all.

Edited October 13, 2006 by rebeccajo

[jordanianprincess 0]

The virgin / ####### dichotomy. There are shades of gray. Not every person who has sex before marriage is a free-wheeling #######.

I find it interesting that even women, when left to this discussion, will divide up other women into this dichotomy -- the way men have always done.

did someone use the word #######???

Yes - it was implied many many times -- look back a few pages and you will see -- phrases like "sleeping around" and references to porn or prostitution. That is just plain goofy. I do not think you were the one who used these words. Using that kind of language emotionalizes and polarizes a lot. And it is just not fair. There is a spectrum of experience between the street-walking prostitute and the virgin hymen-intact princess that waits until marriage. Just the diversity on this board should show that. What I do not understand is why people on this forum do not respect the individual choice (alas! feminism!) therein.

Deeshla, it wasnt the women that prefer to abstain from having premarital sex that started tossing around the phrase (sleeping around). A member used this to describe her behavior.

[Jenn! 918]

Girls.....

'sleeping around' does not equal 'feminist'. Ok?

True, but not supporting the option to if one so chooses does equal "not feminist".

I thought feminism was about women's rights under the law. Not about what they do or don't do in the bedroom.

Who, when and why you have sex with someone is about personal choice. Which - right now - isn't governed by any enforceable law. Thank heavens.

That is the whole issue though. There are certain people here who feel that it should *not* be a personal choice. I would not call them feminists. Likewise I would not call anyone who slept around a feminist based solely on that behavior.

I think people are talking around each other here.

[jordanianprincess 0]

Feminism is about women having the same opportunities as men. That's all.

[chri'stina 190]

It's not just about women, but men also. If someone tells me they follow a certain set of beliefs, which includes not having sex before marriage, it can be disappointing if they openly discuss their premarital sex. To me it's not an issue of feminism or gender, but of beliefs and whether ppl actually try to follow them. When I brought something up about sex being wrong in Islam, it had nothing to do with whether the person is male/female but wondering what they follow or don't in their religion. I know the topic has gone now into feminism somehow just because a few people said they believed in waiting until married to have sex.

(I'm a Christian by the way, don't want to cause confusion on that)

[jordanianprincess 0]

Girls.....

'sleeping around' does not equal 'feminist'. Ok?

True, but not supporting the option to if one so chooses does equal "not feminist".

I thought feminism was about women's rights under the law. Not about what they do or don't do in the bedroom.

Who, when and why you have sex with someone is about personal choice. Which - right now - isn't governed by any enforceable law. Thank heavens.

That is the whole issue though. There are certain people here who feel that it should *not* be a personal choice. I would not call them feminists. Likewise I would not call anyone who slept around a feminist based solely on that behavior.

I think people are talking around each other here.

Jenn can you please explain to me how feminism has anything to do with sex? I don't see the conncection. I think women were fighting for the right to vote, run for office, equal pay, etc.

[Jenn! 918]

Girls.....

'sleeping around' does not equal 'feminist'. Ok?

True, but not supporting the option to if one so chooses does equal "not feminist".

I thought feminism was about women's rights under the law. Not about what they do or don't do in the bedroom.

Who, when and why you have sex with someone is about personal choice. Which - right now - isn't governed by any enforceable law. Thank heavens.

That is the whole issue though. There are certain people here who feel that it should *not* be a personal choice. I would not call them feminists. Likewise I would not call anyone who slept around a feminist based solely on that behavior.

I think people are talking around each other here.

Jenn can you please explain to me how feminism has anything to do with sex? I don't see the conncection. I think women were fighting for the right to vote, run for office, equal pay, etc.

You don't agree that criminalizing pre-marital sex would be an anti-feminist action?