honeymoon with the WHOLE family?

[deeshla 0]

Why does it follow that one must support others engaging in something they themselves disapprove of? And, if they don't approve, it follows that they advocate making it illegal? That doesn't make sense to me.

I don't support the liberty of raising children to believe they are entitled to receive whatever they want, which too many parents do these days, but making it illegal is not the solution to that, nor is supporting their "freedom" to do so.

One thing that you may want to consider is that when something immoral is celebrated and advocated, it is because there are people making money from it. Who's making money from free sex? Hugh Hefner, his pimp daughter, Christy, and their ilk. Porn stars, the Girls Gone Wild folks, cable channels, pharmaceutical companies, psychologists, film makers, etc., etc.

Who makes money off of those who are more modest about their sexuality and wait until marriage? No one.

The virgin / ####### dichotomy. There are shades of gray. Not every person who has sex before marriage is a free-wheeling #######.

I find it interesting that even women, when left to this discussion, will divide up other women into this dichotomy -- the way men have always done.

[Jenn! 918]

I just have one question for you Liz, what is the deal with your obsession with Feminism? Why do women have to be feminists. You stated earlier that Abdel was feminist enough in his views to stay home while you went out to support the family, when in fact a feminist would never accept that.

Can you explain this JP? I don't understand how that would be unacceptable to a feminist. Feminism means having choices for women rather than presumed roles.

[MHandMB 0]

To butt in where I'm probably not wanted, my interpretation of what Liz was saying is that women have the choice to sleep with whom they want, when they want, and to want take away that CHOICE from fellow women (i.e., make pre-marital sex illegal), would be considered anti-feminist (in taking away a woman's right to make her own sexual decisions).

From what I've read, I don't see where she's trying to insult those who say that they agree with waiting until marriage, just that she believes that there is nothing wrong with pre-marital sex and that not allowing someone to have the CHOICE to have pre-marital sex is force-feeding them values that may or may not be their own.

I just see a lot of comments responding to Liz like she was deliberately trying to insult people and make herself sound superior, and I just didn't see that at all. Just wanted to add my $.02.

[Veiled Princess 1]

The virgin / ####### dichotomy. There are shades of gray. Not every person who has sex before marriage is a free-wheeling #######.

I find it interesting that even women, when left to this discussion, will divide up other women into this dichotomy -- the way men have always done.

did someone use the word #######???

[Ban Hammer 12,863]

The virgin / ####### dichotomy. There are shades of gray. Not every person who has sex before marriage is a free-wheeling #######.

that said, i never met a nypho i didn't like

I find it interesting that even women, when left to this discussion, will divide up other women into this dichotomy -- the way men have always done.

strange how that works eh?

[Jenn! 918]

To butt in where I'm probably not wanted, my interpretation of what Liz was saying is that women have the choice to sleep with whom they want, when they want, and to want take away that CHOICE from fellow women (i.e., make pre-marital sex illegal), would be considered anti-feminist (in taking away a woman's right to make her own sexual decisions).

From what I've read, I don't see where she's trying to insult those who say that they agree with waiting until marriage, just that she believes that there is nothing wrong with pre-marital sex and that not allowing someone to have the CHOICE to have pre-marital sex is force-feeding them values that may or may not be their own.

I just see a lot of comments responding to Liz like she was deliberately trying to insult people and make herself sound superior, and I just didn't see that at all. Just wanted to add my $.02.

I totally agree.

[Ban Hammer 12,863]

The virgin / ####### dichotomy. There are shades of gray. Not every person who has sex before marriage is a free-wheeling #######.

I find it interesting that even women, when left to this discussion, will divide up other women into this dichotomy -- the way men have always done.

did someone use the word #######???

yes, you did just now

[deeshla 0]

Should I have the freedom or liberty to go out and kill someone because they cut me off in traffic? Of course not, things that we consider liberties here perhaps should not be. Premarital sex, in my opinion, is devastating to the society and should not be considered a liberty.

No, we should not have the liberty to kill people, and we do not, it is illegal.

I don't understand what your position is? That we should not refer to premarital sex as a liberty or that we should not have the right to engage in it? If it is the latter, then I fail to see how that would not involve making it illegal.

I never said I thought it should be legal. Some states in the US agree... or at least did at some point because there was, or in some cases still is, laws on the books banning premarital sex.

Adultery is illegal and if any court ever decided to uphold the law it could be enforced.... of course as long as the law makers and law enforcers continue to practice the same immoral and illegal action it's not gonna get enforced. Should it not be a person's 'personal freedom' to sleep with whoever they want even if they're already married to someone else??

It's only a recent occurance that states are now beginning to abolish such laws from their books because someone considers it their 'personal freedom' to engage in this act. It has been illegal in many states of this country (although not enforced) since early days.

Before long there will be no laws in this country because everythng will be a liberty.

Ok, then I did understand your point correctly. That is what I assumed from what you had written. I said, "If it is the latter, then I fail to see how that would not involve making it illegal.", because of szsz's response that she didn't understand how I was relating making premarital sex illegal and your statement about refusing the liberty.

Szsz thought that my question about making premarital sex illegal came out of left field, but I don't think it did.

Jenn, this makes sense. Liberties are shared in a society. I think it must be that people feel very strongly about the "immorality" of premarital sex. (I am not one of those people.)

Liberty = freedom

[jordanianprincess 0]

I just have one question for you Liz, what is the deal with your obsession with Feminism? Why do women have to be feminists. You stated earlier that Abdel was feminist enough in his views to stay home while you went out to support the family, when in fact a feminist would never accept that.

Can you explain this JP? I don't understand how that would be unacceptable to a feminist. Feminism means having choices for women rather than presumed roles.

If he was a feminist then he would not stay home. Maybe he is ok with her being a feminist and staying home himself but that doesnt make him a feminist. She is the feminist.

[Veiled Princess 1]

To butt in where I'm probably not wanted, my interpretation of what Liz was saying is that women have the choice to sleep with whom they want, when they want, and to want take away that CHOICE from fellow women (i.e., make pre-marital sex illegal), would be considered anti-feminist (in taking away a woman's right to make her own sexual decisions).

From what I've read, I don't see where she's trying to insult those who say that they agree with waiting until marriage, just that she believes that there is nothing wrong with pre-marital sex and that not allowing someone to have the CHOICE to have pre-marital sex is force-feeding them values that may or may not be their own.

I just see a lot of comments responding to Liz like she was deliberately trying to insult people and make herself sound superior, and I just didn't see that at all. Just wanted to add my $.02.

That's pretty much what I got from her posts as well... I don't agree with that opinion in that I don't believe it's anyone's right.... male or female... does that make me anti-human????

[Jenn! 918]

I just have one question for you Liz, what is the deal with your obsession with Feminism? Why do women have to be feminists. You stated earlier that Abdel was feminist enough in his views to stay home while you went out to support the family, when in fact a feminist would never accept that.

Can you explain this JP? I don't understand how that would be unacceptable to a feminist. Feminism means having choices for women rather than presumed roles.

If he was a feminist then he would not stay home. Maybe he is ok with her being a feminist and staying home himself but that doesnt make him a feminist. She is the feminist.

I'm sorry. I'm still not following. He is a feminist if he supports that she has a choice to be the one to go out and work. He would also still be a feminist if he went out to work while she stayed home, if that was what she wanted. He would *not* be a feminist if he were to insist that he worked instead of her even if that was against her will.

To me it sounds like you're kind of using the word feminist to mean "gentleman" in the traditional sense. I think being ok with her going out and working while he stays home is exactly what makes him a feminist.

[jpaula 20]

I just have one question for you Liz, what is the deal with your obsession with Feminism? Why do women have to be feminists. You stated earlier that Abdel was feminist enough in his views to stay home while you went out to support the family, when in fact a feminist would never accept that.

Can you explain this JP? I don't understand how that would be unacceptable to a feminist. Feminism means having choices for women rather than presumed roles.

If he was a feminist then he would not stay home. Maybe he is ok with her being a feminist and staying home himself but that doesnt make him a feminist. She is the feminist.

Why is supporting your wife's career not in line with your defintion of feminism? A woman can choose to stay home or go to work and be a feminist, but a man who lives with her, and supports her in this decision cannot?

[Ban Hammer 12,863]

I think being ok with her going out and working while he stays home is exactly what makes him a feminist.

in that case, i know of a few rednecks in arkansas who are feminists

[Bosco 1]

To butt in where I'm probably not wanted, my interpretation of what Liz was saying is that women have the choice to sleep with whom they want, when they want, and to want take away that CHOICE from fellow women (i.e., make pre-marital sex illegal), would be considered anti-feminist (in taking away a woman's right to make her own sexual decisions).

From what I've read, I don't see where she's trying to insult those who say that they agree with waiting until marriage, just that she believes that there is nothing wrong with pre-marital sex and that not allowing someone to have the CHOICE to have pre-marital sex is force-feeding them values that may or may not be their own.

I just see a lot of comments responding to Liz like she was deliberately trying to insult people and make herself sound superior, and I just didn't see that at all. Just wanted to add my $.02.

I totally agree.

I must read these types of things differently than

I guess I'm just lucky that my husband's favorite writer is Simone de Bouvier, not someone I'm guessing any of you have even heard of, much less read. He understands that treating women differently in this area than we treat men is just another form of sexual discrimination. That said, we both agree that when someone chooses to enter a monogomous relationship, they should take that committment seriously and not betray the other person's trust.

or the thinking comment which I don't have the time to find.

[Together4ever 1]

Since no one likes my opinion anyway... I'll toss it in the ring. I've always tried (mind you I said tried) to live by the motto... "Worry about what's in your own yard because it belongs to you." As far as the mysterious, ethereal "other guy"... its his biz. I'll stay in my own yard (or at least try to).