honeymoon with the WHOLE family?

[chri'stina 190]

Girls.....

'sleeping around' does not equal 'feminist'. Ok?

True, but not supporting the option to if one so chooses does equal "not feminist".

I thought feminism was about women's rights under the law. Not about what they do or don't do in the bedroom.

Who, when and why you have sex with someone is about personal choice. Which - right now - isn't governed by any enforceable law. Thank heavens.

That is the whole issue though. There are certain people here who feel that it should *not* be a personal choice. I would not call them feminists. Likewise I would not call anyone who slept around a feminist based solely on that behavior.

I think people are talking around each other here.

True...but I think only one person said they don't think it should be an available personal choice. If I'm correct it was VP but I am not even sure what she meant in her posts so I could be wrong.

I think it's better to wait until marriage, because of my faith, but not only because of that. But that doesn't mean I think it should be illegal.

[rebeccajo 14]

It's not just about women, but men also. If someone tells me they follow a certain set of beliefs, which includes not having sex before marriage, it can be disappointing if they openly discuss their premarital sex.

LOLOLOLOL!

I think that I just don't want to hear about somebody's premarital sex (or lack thereof)....TMI!!

[chri'stina 190]

It's not just about women, but men also. If someone tells me they follow a certain set of beliefs, which includes not having sex before marriage, it can be disappointing if they openly discuss their premarital sex.

LOLOLOLOL!

I think that I just don't want to hear about somebody's premarital sex (or lack thereof)....TMI!!

Well me neither but sometimes on VJ, it's scary.

[rebeccajo 14]

Girls.....

'sleeping around' does not equal 'feminist'. Ok?

True, but not supporting the option to if one so chooses does equal "not feminist".

I thought feminism was about women's rights under the law. Not about what they do or don't do in the bedroom.

Who, when and why you have sex with someone is about personal choice. Which - right now - isn't governed by any enforceable law. Thank heavens.

That is the whole issue though. There are certain people here who feel that it should *not* be a personal choice. I would not call them feminists. Likewise I would not call anyone who slept around a feminist based solely on that behavior.

I think people are talking around each other here.

Jenn can you please explain to me how feminism has anything to do with sex? I don't see the conncection. I think women were fighting for the right to vote, run for office, equal pay, etc.

You don't agree that criminalizing pre-marital sex would be an anti-feminist action?

Only if the only people who could be punished were women.

[jordanianprincess 0]

It's not just about women, but men also. If someone tells me they follow a certain set of beliefs, which includes not having sex before marriage, it can be disappointing if they openly discuss their premarital sex. To me it's not an issue of feminism or gender, but of beliefs and whether ppl actually try to follow them. When I brought something up about sex being wrong in Islam, it had nothing to do with whether the person is male/female but wondering what they follow or don't in their religion. I know the topic has gone now into feminism somehow just because a few people said they believed in waiting until married to have sex.

(I'm a Christian by the way, don't want to cause confusion on that)

I agree with you 100%. There is alot of hypocricy when it comes to this subject and not just here, but ppl everywhere don't practice what they preach. I honestly dont care what anyone else does in their life and I dont' judge them either, thats God's job. If they don't believe in God, thats on them, again I dont care. I only expect the same in return.

I grew up in a family where pre-marital sex was wrong. I agree with this, I am 30 now and I agree fully and will raise my family the same way. That is MY personal AND relgious belief, it was not force fed to me but like anything else it was introduced to me by my family which is where most ppl get their values from. This is no different than my Mother teaching me not to lie. If you are religious in any sense, then you should know that pre-maritial sex is wrong, just like stealing, lying, etc. No difference whatsoever. If you choose to live your life differently thats on you.

[rebeccajo 14]

It's not just about women, but men also. If someone tells me they follow a certain set of beliefs, which includes not having sex before marriage, it can be disappointing if they openly discuss their premarital sex.

LOLOLOLOL!

I think that I just don't want to hear about somebody's premarital sex (or lack thereof)....TMI!!

Well me neither but sometimes on VJ, it's scary.

I know!!! I just had to cover my eyes!

[jordanianprincess 0]

Girls.....

'sleeping around' does not equal 'feminist'. Ok?

True, but not supporting the option to if one so chooses does equal "not feminist".

I thought feminism was about women's rights under the law. Not about what they do or don't do in the bedroom.

Who, when and why you have sex with someone is about personal choice. Which - right now - isn't governed by any enforceable law. Thank heavens.

That is the whole issue though. There are certain people here who feel that it should *not* be a personal choice. I would not call them feminists. Likewise I would not call anyone who slept around a feminist based solely on that behavior.

I think people are talking around each other here.

Jenn can you please explain to me how feminism has anything to do with sex? I don't see the conncection. I think women were fighting for the right to vote, run for office, equal pay, etc.

You don't agree that criminalizing pre-marital sex would be an anti-feminist action?

Where is it a criminal offense?

[Jenn! 918]

Girls.....

'sleeping around' does not equal 'feminist'. Ok?

True, but not supporting the option to if one so chooses does equal "not feminist".

I thought feminism was about women's rights under the law. Not about what they do or don't do in the bedroom.

Who, when and why you have sex with someone is about personal choice. Which - right now - isn't governed by any enforceable law. Thank heavens.

That is the whole issue though. There are certain people here who feel that it should *not* be a personal choice. I would not call them feminists. Likewise I would not call anyone who slept around a feminist based solely on that behavior.

I think people are talking around each other here.

True...but I think only one person said they don't think it should be an available personal choice. If I'm correct it was VP but I am not even sure what she meant in her posts so I could be wrong.

I think it's better to wait until marriage, because of my faith, but not only because of that. But that doesn't mean I think it should be illegal.

Neither did anyone say, I believe, that it's not perfectly fine to wait until you're married either. This is why I said I think we're all talking around each other. If I say, "I believe that I should have the right to have sex before I'm married if I so choose", I don't think that implies anything negative about people who do not make that choice.

[Veiled Princess 1]

I honestly didn't even know there were men that are "feminists" . (Might be a language thing though, I'm pretty sure in German we would use the term "feminist" only for women)

To the whole "pre-marital sex or not"- discussion:

I think it should be every woman's (actually every couple's) decision, and as long as they agree with one another- I don't see why anything should be illegal... actually, by making something illegal, it might be even more interesting to some.

OK but who decides what should or should not be illegal???

With the arguement of 'personal freedoms' we could pretty much negate over half the laws on the books couldn't we????

[honeyblonde 0]

I just have one question for you Liz, what is the deal with your obsession with Feminism? Why do women have to be feminists. You stated earlier that Abdel was feminist enough in his views to stay home while you went out to support the family, when in fact a feminist would never accept that.

Can you explain this JP? I don't understand how that would be unacceptable to a feminist. Feminism means having choices for women rather than presumed roles.

If he was a feminist then he would not stay home. Maybe he is ok with her being a feminist and staying home himself but that doesnt make him a feminist. She is the feminist.

JP, not sure where you got a quote of me saying that Abdel would just sit home and let me support him. I do think that if I chose to support a man and let him be a househusband (after having been a housewife before myself and knowing how much work it can be when there are kids, the only condition where we've discussed him staying home while I worked other than him going to school full-time for a few years to get a degree while I worked) and he accepted that, it wouldn't make me less of a feminist. Many successful men suport their wives while they stay home, so if I reverse the roles does that make me less of a feminist? Please explain how.

Actually, Abdel started working as soon as he could after he got his EAD and has been working sometimes 7 days a week at a physically demanding job. He knows he still isn't paying half of the bills, but he sure is trying, even though I don't care how much he pays of them.

Even when Abdel couldn't work yet, he worked long hours renovating our bathroom and laundry room. He didn't have a choice about me paying for him to get here, but he's had choices since he got here and I can't see how you can accuse him of wanting to just sit on his butt and let me support him or where you're getting your information.

Ok so he works, so then how is he a feminist as you contstantly refer to him as being such? I never said you were less of a feminist, I said Abdel is not a feminist because you work. I never accused him of sitting on his butt, can you show me where I said that? I dont see why you have to misquote everything that is said? As another member said, this is a discussion and not a personal attack on you.

Ok - why is my husband a feminist?

I will answer that.

First, that is what he has studied in depth and he actually is the one who has taught me a whole lot more about it than I ever knew. He's the one who introduced me to Simone and Sartre and many other writers on the topic.

Second, he is totally supportive of me in whatever I choose to do.

Third, he hates how our society focuses on physical beauty. He finds our obsession with being thin disgusting and gets furious at the way normal women are labeled "fat". He also feels that if I want to wear makeup that's my business, but that a woman is beautiful without it. He finds a woman's inner beauty much more valuable than a pretty face or nice figure.

Fourth, he has a deep respect for all women who are intelligent and independent thinkers, who are strong and dare to be themselves even if society says that isn't acceptable. He pities women who can't think for themselves or insist on having to be taken care of or who focus on physical beauty. He just feels that these women aren't aware of their own power and ability to be more than that.

Is it so hard to accept that men can be feminists? Men like Ralph Waldo Emerson are the ones who helped open the doors for women to have rights in this country and fought right along side the women for those rights for them.

Sorry JP, didn't mean to misquote you. You're right, you didn't say I wasn't a feminist, just that my husband isn't. I hope I addressed that topic to your satisfaction.

[Jenn! 918]

Where is it a criminal offense?

Am I talking about things that we're no longer discussing? I'm getting confused. Has everyone read the entire thread?

[jordanianprincess 0]

I just have one question for you Liz, what is the deal with your obsession with Feminism? Why do women have to be feminists. You stated earlier that Abdel was feminist enough in his views to stay home while you went out to support the family, when in fact a feminist would never accept that.

Can you explain this JP? I don't understand how that would be unacceptable to a feminist. Feminism means having choices for women rather than presumed roles.

If he was a feminist then he would not stay home. Maybe he is ok with her being a feminist and staying home himself but that doesnt make him a feminist. She is the feminist.

JP, not sure where you got a quote of me saying that Abdel would just sit home and let me support him. I do think that if I chose to support a man and let him be a househusband (after having been a housewife before myself and knowing how much work it can be when there are kids, the only condition where we've discussed him staying home while I worked other than him going to school full-time for a few years to get a degree while I worked) and he accepted that, it wouldn't make me less of a feminist. Many successful men suport their wives while they stay home, so if I reverse the roles does that make me less of a feminist? Please explain how.

Actually, Abdel started working as soon as he could after he got his EAD and has been working sometimes 7 days a week at a physically demanding job. He knows he still isn't paying half of the bills, but he sure is trying, even though I don't care how much he pays of them.

Even when Abdel couldn't work yet, he worked long hours renovating our bathroom and laundry room. He didn't have a choice about me paying for him to get here, but he's had choices since he got here and I can't see how you can accuse him of wanting to just sit on his butt and let me support him or where you're getting your information.

Ok so he works, so then how is he a feminist as you contstantly refer to him as being such? I never said you were less of a feminist, I said Abdel is not a feminist because you work. I never accused him of sitting on his butt, can you show me where I said that? I dont see why you have to misquote everything that is said? As another member said, this is a discussion and not a personal attack on you.

Ok - why is my husband a feminist?

I will answer that.

First, that is what he has studied in depth and he actually is the one who has taught me a whole lot more about it than I ever knew. He's the one who introduced me to Simone and Sartre and many other writers on the topic.

Second, he is totally supportive of me in whatever I choose to do.

Third, he hates how our society focuses on physical beauty. He finds our obsession with being thin disgusting and gets furious at the way normal women are labeled "fat". He also feels that if I want to wear makeup that's my business, but that a woman is beautiful without it. He finds a woman's inner beauty much more valuable than a pretty face or nice figure.

Fourth, he has a deep respect for all women who are intelligent and independent thinkers, who are strong and dare to be themselves even if society says that isn't acceptable. He pities women who can't think for themselves or insist on having to be taken care of or who focus on physical beauty. He just feels that these women aren't aware of their own power and ability to be more than that.

Is it so hard to accept that men can be feminists? Men like Ralph Waldo Emerson are the ones who helped open the doors for women to have rights in this country and fought right along side the women for those rights for them.

Sorry JP, didn't mean to misquote you. You're right, you didn't say I wasn't a feminist, just that my husband isn't. I hope I addressed that topic to your satisfaction.

I don't think any of the things you just mentioned make him a feminist. Can you please tell me in your opinion what a feminist is?

[chri'stina 190]

That is the whole issue though. There are certain people here who feel that it should *not* be a personal choice. I would not call them feminists. Likewise I would not call anyone who slept around a feminist based solely on that behavior.

I think people are talking around each other here.

True...but I think only one person said they don't think it should be an available personal choice. If I'm correct it was VP but I am not even sure what she meant in her posts so I could be wrong.

I think it's better to wait until marriage, because of my faith, but not only because of that. But that doesn't mean I think it should be illegal.

Neither did anyone say, I believe, that it's not perfectly fine to wait until you're married either. This is why I said I think we're all talking around each other. If I say, "I believe that I should have the right to have sex before I'm married if I so choose", I don't think that implies anything negative about people who do not make that choice.

I agree with you. I know you didn't think it was inflamatory, but honeyblonde's first post was kind of belittling to those who want to wait until marriage to have sex. Bosco has posted the words that came across harshly a couple times. So I do think she definitely implied something negative about ppl who wait. I know she said she didn't mean that, afterwards, but it came across that way.

[jordanianprincess 0]

Where is it a criminal offense?

Am I talking about things that we're no longer discussing? I'm getting confused. Has everyone read the entire thread?

I have read it but its so large, can you please elabororate on your statement? LOL, I'm confused too, this discussion have evolved alot.

[chri'stina 190]

Where is it a criminal offense?

Am I talking about things that we're no longer discussing? I'm getting confused. Has everyone read the entire thread?

I know, it is getting confusing.

Why do I get involved in these discussions?? I mean, I feel like I have things to add but later on, I'm sure many of us wonder...what was the point of getting involved in all that? Oh well. It passes the day, right?