A Nightmare from Kyiv

[bigdog 376]

We found assistance using the following, Good Luck.

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Adoption-Based Resources; Citizenship Resource Center; Resources for Congress. Testimonies and Speeches; Presentations and Reports; Family-Based Resources

www.uscis.gov/.../menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a?vgnextoid=b9ab9d

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Thank you for the reply. Yes, I get the point about the situation you used for illustration. That does not change the fact that the truth and clear facts could have been cleared up in the time frame of the original petition had anyone involved at the Consulate level handled the matter with common sense and contacted or interviewed the two people affected instead of following some false "rabbit trail" that messed everything up needlessly. That possibility is the great fear in my situation at the present time. Unfounded fantasies that the Consulate Officer does not take the time or proper clear cut methods to resolve due to "protocol", apathy, or personal prejudice.

And to that we can only say "it is what it is"

In the other case, after a lengthy delay in AP the case was denied and sent back to USCIS. I advised the petitioner NOT to appeal but to withdraw that petition and start a new one. She did and it was approved and they had a new visa in less time than the AP!

They have no way of knowing a rabbit trail is false until they follow it. In this other case, they never did sort it out to their satisfaction and the petitions (I presume both petitions) were denied and sent back.

FWIW your greatest fear, even if it happens, will be overcome eventually.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Another possibility os to find out who the Inspector Genral is for the consulate and get him involved. IGs usually get results, far more than Congress people who really have no pull over Administrative Departments like DOS. The IG can only take action IF there is some incompetence or violation of law, but an IGs inquiry is usually enough to move your case to the head of the line, if nothing else.

Google "Inspectors General" and see if you can find the one that handles the Kiev consulate. I do not have a number or link for you, but with a little searching I think you will find it. FWIW people inside VSC tell me that when an IG calls they snap to and get them an answer ASAP. I would imagine the same applies to consulates.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Numerous emails have been sent by myself along with phone calls. Several emails from my attorney have been sent and phone calls made. My Congressional office made official inquiry through the special email system between The Department of State and individual Congressmen. The answers are all terse, blunt, uninformative and impersonal to me. The Congressman got a much better response with more courtesy, offering "any further assistance he needed". Of course what the Congressman wanted was information and answers, but they did not give those even though they offer to "be of assistance further".

The "High Horse" here is the system that implements this protocol all too easily and each Consul Officer is cautioned in the guidelines given to them on how to conduct the investigations and interviews. The Official Guidelines state "221g is to be invoked with great caution and to be used only sparingly". It's an abuse of power and not of any "vetting" benefit in many cases.

I don't think you understand the tone of my original posting. It is like knowing you made a 90 or 100 grade on an exam. Your professor will not tell you if you passed or failed, much less when they will share the information. It is subjective discrimination power in the hands of people who may not be mature enough or trained enough to handle it. I was a banker for 30 years in commercial lending. I saw it all the time with people who came into authority and power without the maturity or knowledge to use is properly or as was intended.

If they are not following DOS guidelines the person to get involved in this is the Inspector General for that office. They swing a big stick. You will not get any direct answer through him either, be assured THAT is not going to happen. But he can get them to sh*t or get off the pot.

[Katiedog 6]

And to that we can only say "it is what it is"

In the other case, after a lengthy delay in AP the case was denied and sent back to USCIS. I advised the petitioner NOT to appeal but to withdraw that petition and start a new one. She did and it was approved and they had a new visa in less time than the AP!

They have no way of knowing a rabbit trail is false until they follow it. In this other case, they never did sort it out to their satisfaction and the petitions (I presume both petitions) were denied and sent back.

FWIW your greatest fear, even if it happens, will be overcome eventually.

Thank you very much for the sound and common sense approach advice. I am surely going to keep this in mind.

This is something I have never encountered in my life in dealing with the US Government and it has been not only very stressful and depressing, but it has made me livid when I dwell on it in my mind. There just is no real justification for the method and means employed. And I deeply resent the treatment I have been handed as a US Citizen who has broken no laws, provided false information nor made no false statements.

[Katiedog 6]

And to that we can only say "it is what it is"

In the other case, after a lengthy delay in AP the case was denied and sent back to USCIS. I advised the petitioner NOT to appeal but to withdraw that petition and start a new one. She did and it was approved and they had a new visa in less time than the AP!

They have no way of knowing a rabbit trail is false until they follow it. In this other case, they never did sort it out to their satisfaction and the petitions (I presume both petitions) were denied and sent back.

FWIW your greatest fear, even if it happens, will be overcome eventually.

This advice and encouragement is greatly appreciated because I visit Visa Journey often but rarely post. I read your posts and know you are well informed and reasonable, balanced.

[Katiedog 6]

Please disclose the answers to these questions for us to help you further? The Kiev Embassy is an easy Embassy....for them to place you into "AP Hell", then they, who are very professionally trained, more than you and your lawyer have been, means that they have seen something in your case that raises their eyebrows and warrants them to use this "power" that your elected Congressional regulations have bestowed upon them to use as their discretion towards you. Nothing personal but they are doing the job that they and you have trained them to do. Period

I answered your questions in my first post of the thread if you care to read it with some form of comprehension.

I have been a witness first hand to the "professionally trained" US Government employees who "are here to help me" on some occasions. I have born witness to it all my life at many levels, high and low. They are professionally trained by another bureaucrat that has been trained by another and so forth with the express goal of preserving the protocol and bureaucratic processes that allow them to keep their jobs and security.

How many examples of "professionally trained" Government Employees do you hear about that search old women in airports by means of a strip search for dangerous contraband. Indeed their department head stands by his employees being "professional" but also utters pathetic phrases like "they made a mistake or could use some better judgement". Same situation here. The job goal is security and protection of US Citizens. It is laughable if it were not so true and sad.

I don't fault the reasons for the guidelines, but I do fault the means of solving questions, finding answers that are valid and correct, following the wrong trail based on a false assumptions, etc. Whenever a person in this type of Government environment is employed to find fault before facts, they inevitably find the faults first and ignore the obvious facts. The do not go about their jobs with an attitude of the positive, because their job is to prove the negative. They get promoted and recognition that way.

You are someone I would probably ignore for advice for obvious reasons.

The fact remains that our petition was a lay down deal, "straight forward" as our attorneys said. They are the experts, not some lethargic, apathetic, self important bureaucrat who ignores common sense in favor of protocol. That's the kind of thing that gets people killed in war and causes incalculable problems in real life for people who deserve better treatment and service. It doesn't take over 60 days to verify anything necessary in the petition and it certainly doesn't take over 60 days to review and understand it.

[Katiedog 6]

The officials words "the package was thorough enough it would take some time to read" are very contradictory to me. If it's thorough enough then what is there to read? I can't even imagine your feelings and with my fiancées interview coming it's giving a bit of an uneasiness feeling to me. It doesn't seem its anything to do with your evidence to me but maybe her name came up as common with someone else in one of the data bases they look at and just needs to be investigated and cleared. I'm no expert but just giving my opinion. A few questions I do have is you mentioned they took her Ukraine passport. Did they take her international passport also? Did they ask her for her Ukraine passport specifically? Usually you don't even need to show the Ukraine passport from what I have read. Was she previously married? I pray it all works out for you.

Hello spectec,

I would not worry about your situation until something bad happens. Kyiv has a good reputation, but of course in my situation the good reputation counted for nothing. I felt we were a "shoo in" approval from what I read, the petition quality, content, organization, Marina's preparation and the input of our attorneys.

Personally I think my fiance drew an officer that for whatever reasons just had their mind made up before the interview and has now dug in their heels so that they will not back off protocol and concluding the matter more quickly. Maybe the officer overreacted to Marina negatively (but Marina did not think so), misjudged, misunderstood, underanalyzed or over analyzed the Visa Petition. We will never know but we get the consequences of it all the same.

I considered going to Ukraine for the interview, but we have friends who have gone through the K1 before and they did not think it necessary. Additionally they all had less of a "track record" of a relationship in terms of time and visits. They were all issued Visas without any problems, so that is what we expected. It is expensive to travel there and we figured on saving the money for a return visit to bring her daughter back in 2012. Everything is up in the air now. So if the question is about the relationship being genuine, all I can say they must be blind or cannot read and understand very thorough documentation and proof. When the lady on the phone call to Marina tried to rattle her like a police interrogation, she never flinched, did not get excited and she was consistent with her answers. She had nothing to hide and nothing to speak but the complete truth. We had gone over details from interviews many many times before the actual interview in November. The phone call did end with the woman at the other end being courteous and more friendly than in the beginning and the interview, but no doubt she was only following orders given to her by the Consul Officer with the file.

Marina has a Ukraine International Passport newly issued. She had all the clearances from the Police. She was previously married and all documents relating to it and the divorce were certified, stamped and presented in the package. Most Ukraine documents were translated and certified as to the translation as well even if not required to do so. They kept her Ukraine International Passport and with the way the interview concluded, the language at the end from the officer and the notation of information taken from her at the department for issuing the Visa, we thought all was well and we expected to receive the Visa within days.

Goes to show "don't ever count your chickens before the eggs hatch" even though they are in an incubator with a high hatch rate.

One way or another, one year or the next, I will bring Marina and her daughter here to be my wife and stepdaughter. These people at the Consulate may make my life miserable and difficult for the time being, but they will not ruin my life when it is ready to begin.

[Laure&Colin 280]

I don't think you confirmed if you called DOS to enquire about the status of the visa application. Their phone number is 202-663-1225 and you just press 1 then 0 to talk to a live "visa specialist", no need to listen to the lenghty message.

A few days ago I saw 2 links that were posted in another thread, giving details about administrative processing and what can be happening during this time:

http://www.usaimmigrationattorney.com/SecurityNameChecksAndAdministrativeReview.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_Advisory_Opinion

They might give you a few answers about the process behind the curtain, although I don't know what applies to your case.

Unless you are told otherwise by the embassy, the validity of your relationship is not being questionned here, it seems that something you are unaware of triggered an alarm. It could be something stupid like your fiancée has the same name as a someone listed in a criminal database.

Good luck!

Edited February 2, 2012 by Laure&Colin

[spectec 12]

Hello spectec,

I would not worry about your situation until something bad happens. Kyiv has a good reputation, but of course in my situation the good reputation counted for nothing. I felt we were a "shoo in" approval from what I read, the petition quality, content, organization, Marina's preparation and the input of our attorneys.

Personally I think my fiance drew an officer that for whatever reasons just had their mind made up before the interview and has now dug in their heels so that they will not back off protocol and concluding the matter more quickly. Maybe the officer overreacted to Marina negatively (but Marina did not think so), misjudged, misunderstood, underanalyzed or over analyzed the Visa Petition. We will never know but we get the consequences of it all the same.

I considered going to Ukraine for the interview, but we have friends who have gone through the K1 before and they did not think it necessary. Additionally they all had less of a "track record" of a relationship in terms of time and visits. They were all issued Visas without any problems, so that is what we expected. It is expensive to travel there and we figured on saving the money for a return visit to bring her daughter back in 2012. Everything is up in the air now. So if the question is about the relationship being genuine, all I can say they must be blind or cannot read and understand very thorough documentation and proof. When the lady on the phone call to Marina tried to rattle her like a police interrogation, she never flinched, did not get excited and she was consistent with her answers. She had nothing to hide and nothing to speak but the complete truth. We had gone over details from interviews many many times before the actual interview in November. The phone call did end with the woman at the other end being courteous and more friendly than in the beginning and the interview, but no doubt she was only following orders given to her by the Consul Officer with the file.

Marina has a Ukraine International Passport newly issued. She had all the clearances from the Police. She was previously married and all documents relating to it and the divorce were certified, stamped and presented in the package. Most Ukraine documents were translated and certified as to the translation as well even if not required to do so. They kept her Ukraine International Passport and with the way the interview concluded, the language at the end from the officer and the notation of information taken from her at the department for issuing the Visa, we thought all was well and we expected to receive the Visa within days.

Goes to show "don't ever count your chickens before the eggs hatch" even though they are in an incubator with a high hatch rate.

One way or another, one year or the next, I will bring Marina and her daughter here to be my wife and stepdaughter. These people at the Consulate may make my life miserable and difficult for the time being, but they will not ruin my life when it is ready to begin.

Well the fact that they kept her international passport is at least a good sign. Typically when they keep the passport then the application will eventually result in a visa being issued. It seems they are in fact reviewing something there whether a name or background or all the documents or who knows. As we know none of this process ever moves quickly with the 5-8 month time for the I-129F to be approved being a fine example. Being patient as possible seems to be the only course right now as frustrating as it is. Yes its easy to say and difficult to do but I have a feeling in the end she will be rewarded with a visa. Ukranians have a saying "what doesn't kill you will make you stronger" and I hope you both will end up happy and certainly stronger at the end of your journey.

Edited February 2, 2012 by spectec

[AmyWrites 593]

Don't think CO's are idiots. They are not, and they go through hell to get their jobs. Don't compare them to TSA employees because the TSA employs mainly mediocre people, to be a CO you have to pass through horrible difficult hoops to MAYBE get hired.

Something must be up for it to be put in AP in such an easy embassy. Time to go through every single little thing that could've slipped through.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Well the fact that they kept her international passport is at least a good sign. Typically when they keep the passport then the application will eventually result in a visa being issued.

That is not necessarily true. If they expect a long delay or run into a long delay they usually return the passport, if they have not, there is a reason for it.

Many timein AP case the passports get returned without the visa

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Hello spectec,

I would not worry about your situation until something bad happens. Kyiv has a good reputation, but of course in my situation the good reputation counted for nothing. I felt we were a "shoo in" approval from what I read, the petition quality, content, organization, Marina's preparation and the input of our attorneys.

Personally I think my fiance drew an officer that for whatever reasons just had their mind made up before the interview and has now dug in their heels so that they will not back off protocol and concluding the matter more quickly. Maybe the officer overreacted to Marina negatively (but Marina did not think so), misjudged, misunderstood, underanalyzed or over analyzed the Visa Petition. We will never know but we get the consequences of it all the same.

I considered going to Ukraine for the interview, but we have friends who have gone through the K1 before and they did not think it necessary. Additionally they all had less of a "track record" of a relationship in terms of time and visits. They were all issued Visas without any problems, so that is what we expected. It is expensive to travel there and we figured on saving the money for a return visit to bring her daughter back in 2012. Everything is up in the air now. So if the question is about the relationship being genuine, all I can say they must be blind or cannot read and understand very thorough documentation and proof. When the lady on the phone call to Marina tried to rattle her like a police interrogation, she never flinched, did not get excited and she was consistent with her answers. She had nothing to hide and nothing to speak but the complete truth. We had gone over details from interviews many many times before the actual interview in November. The phone call did end with the woman at the other end being courteous and more friendly than in the beginning and the interview, but no doubt she was only following orders given to her by the Consul Officer with the file.

Marina has a Ukraine International Passport newly issued. She had all the clearances from the Police. She was previously married and all documents relating to it and the divorce were certified, stamped and presented in the package. Most Ukraine documents were translated and certified as to the translation as well even if not required to do so. They kept her Ukraine International Passport and with the way the interview concluded, the language at the end from the officer and the notation of information taken from her at the department for issuing the Visa, we thought all was well and we expected to receive the Visa within days.

Goes to show "don't ever count your chickens before the eggs hatch" even though they are in an incubator with a high hatch rate.

One way or another, one year or the next, I will bring Marina and her daughter here to be my wife and stepdaughter. These people at the Consulate may make my life miserable and difficult for the time being, but they will not ruin my life when it is ready to begin.

Some few points. They DID decide before the interview, they always do. The interviews last 1-3 minutes usually so they can be nothing more than confirming their decision. In our interview they merely called us up and told us she was approved, no questions at all. You think they had made up their mind? Of course. I also do not think it has anything to do with your case but if you are going to make multiple visits, make one of them for the interview. It is good moral support if nothing else and that is no small thing

I give you 10 to 1 you have no idea what is causing this and neither does the CO she saw and you couldgo through everything you have 1000 times and you will not find because it is not there. Could be a name hit on a background check they have to clear up. I do not beleive this is random or without reason. It may turn out to be without a valid reason or a mistake or a mix up of names, but it is not random.

Your last parpagrapgh is the most important. When they get here, and they will, NEVER forget what you two went through to be together and don't let all the trivial challenges of life interfere with your life together.

[spectec 12]

That is not necessarily true. If they expect a long delay or run into a long delay they usually return the passport, if they have not, there is a reason for it.

Many timein AP case the passports get returned without the visa

I did say typically

[baron555 934]

Hello spectec,

I would not worry about your situation until something bad happens. Kyiv has a good reputation, but of course in my situation the good reputation counted for nothing. I felt we were a "shoo in" approval from what I read, the petition quality, content, organization, Marina's preparation and the input of our attorneys.

Personally I think my fiance drew an officer that for whatever reasons just had their mind made up before the interview and has now dug in their heels so that they will not back off protocol and concluding the matter more quickly. Maybe the officer overreacted to Marina negatively (but Marina did not think so), misjudged, misunderstood, underanalyzed or over analyzed the Visa Petition. We will never know but we get the consequences of it all the same.

I considered going to Ukraine for the interview, but we have friends who have gone through the K1 before and they did not think it necessary. Additionally they all had less of a "track record" of a relationship in terms of time and visits. They were all issued Visas without any problems, so that is what we expected. It is expensive to travel there and we figured on saving the money for a return visit to bring her daughter back in 2012. Everything is up in the air now. So if the question is about the relationship being genuine, all I can say they must be blind or cannot read and understand very thorough documentation and proof. When the lady on the phone call to Marina tried to rattle her like a police interrogation, she never flinched, did not get excited and she was consistent with her answers. She had nothing to hide and nothing to speak but the complete truth. We had gone over details from interviews many many times before the actual interview in November. The phone call did end with the woman at the other end being courteous and more friendly than in the beginning and the interview, but no doubt she was only following orders given to her by the Consul Officer with the file.

Marina has a Ukraine International Passport newly issued. She had all the clearances from the Police. She was previously married and all documents relating to it and the divorce were certified, stamped and presented in the package. Most Ukraine documents were translated and certified as to the translation as well even if not required to do so. They kept her Ukraine International Passport and with the way the interview concluded, the language at the end from the officer and the notation of information taken from her at the department for issuing the Visa, we thought all was well and we expected to receive the Visa within days.

Goes to show "don't ever count your chickens before the eggs hatch" even though they are in an incubator with a high hatch rate.

One way or another, one year or the next, I will bring Marina and her daughter here to be my wife and stepdaughter. These people at the Consulate may make my life miserable and difficult for the time being, but they will not ruin my life when it is ready to begin.

Sri for jumping on you OP but there is something that they, being professionally trained regardless of what it appears to you, that they determined they need additional time. As stated, it may be nothing related to you.

The previous case that has been mentioned, after all ended up well, was the foreign fiance had been married before and divorced and then was petitioned by a USC. It just happened by accident that the ex also was being petitioned at the same time and the Consulate saw this and determined that maybe these two were attempting visa fraud by divorcing and then maybe re-uniting after entry. That was not the case but looking at everything from the USC's side, they couldn't understand and of course were never informed of such.

So, maybe there is something weird that they are seeing that is beyond your knowledge. It happens. Or, as stated, maybe there was a hit on a check and they need to check that out. Almost never do we hear of total incompetence of the Consulate.

The fact they kept the passport is a very positive sign and I hope that you are not sharing your lividness with your fiance, she will want and need and expect you to remain strong when presented with difficult tasks.