Civility between religions

[Sofiyya 1,687]

This narrative is an example of some of that one-sided history mentioned before. The "some Jews" that resorted to terrorism are state heroes in Israel, including former prime ministers David Ben Gurion and Menachem Begin. They planned and executed the King John Hotel bombing in 1946 that killed nearly 100 people, including 17 Jews. Many Jews and Jewish organizations condemned the attack and the radicals behind it, including Ben-Gurion, who withdrew his consent at the last minute.

By no means does this reflect poorly on Judaism, but it says something that two terrorists went on to influential careers representing the state on the international stage. It's just another event in history that doesn't seem to count anymore.

I'll take a stab at explaining the Isreali/palistinian/US situation in broad general terms, as objectively as possible.

I don't claim expertise and Im not going to spend hours looking up the details.

a couple thousand years ago the Jews controled the area roughly where Israel is today.

The romans took it from them.

Somebody took it from the romans

and then Somebody else took it from Somebody.

The Jews considered it a holy land, the Christians considered it a holy land and then the Muslims came along and made it one of their holy lands.

It changed hands like 15 times.

There were 5 or 6 crusades over a couple of centuries. The crus would translate to cross which would have been carried by the european christians trying to take control of the holy land.

The land changed hands many times. Usually by the sword.

The Jews meanwhile were scattered in different countries ruled by different religions. they were frequently viewed as outsiders and therefore subjected to persecution. They longed for a

land to call their own and set their sites on Palistine which they felt had some historical right to since god gave it to them. Just prior to WWI the turks controled Palistine and the Jews were

working through imigration and dipomacy to try to get their own little chunk from the turks.

During WWI The british fought against the turks and won. The Jews originally wished to show their allegience to the Turks. But the turks rejected them and pillaged them during the war.

eventually a Jewish legion was formed that helped the british

The arabs in the area had revolted against the turks and helped the british beat them. My understanding is the british had led the

arabs to believe they were fighting for independence but after the turks were beaten. The british decided they should be in charge.

The Lawrence of Arabia book is the story of the arab revolt from an English perspective. Lawrence felt he was the inspiration of, and lead player in the revolt. Some arabs remembered it

differently. Lawrence felt the british betrayed the arabs after the war.

So at the end of WWI the british were in charge. The Jews lobbied the english goverment to give them a separate state. In the Balfour Declaration the british voiced sympathy for the idea.

The arabs lacked the lobbiests in britain but made it clear they weren't happy about the idea and would fight.

The idea stalled for 20 years because giving the Jews their state would require dipossessing the arabs that lived there.

Then came WWII, Jews wanted to immigrate to palistine but the British were discouraging it because it upset the arabs.

during or WWII the Germans loaded Jews on a boats and sent them off. It was a scandal because no country, including the US would let them land

Nobody wanted the Jews so they were stuck out at sea. Different boats had their own story but one with almost 800 on board was turned away from Palistine by the British, It then moved on to

Turkey, the turks towed them back out to sea without food water or gas. Then a soviet submarine sank the boat, only one or two survivors.

After WWII and the holocaust, The Jews were more determined than ever to have their own state. The problem was you had thousands of Jews surrounded by millions of Arabs who were

dead set against the idea. The british were trying to keep it from turning into war. Some Jews resorted to terrorism against the british.

The British turned the problem over to the United Nations, The United Nations voted to partition Palistine.

After the vote went against the arab desires, they started attacking the Jews.

The Jews fought back and won. Then declared their state Of Israel to exist.

Both the Soviets and the US, the power players in the UN had supported the partition.

Since the end of WWII the world was devided into the Soviet camp and the US camp.

After they declared independence the US president decided he wanted Israel in our camp so he was quick to recognize the Jewish State.

That almost immediately made us allies to the Jews and enemies to the arabs.

The Soviets ended up backing the arabs in about 6 wars of annihilation against the Jews.

With US backing the Israelis won each of the wars and then were restrained by the US from taking full advantage of their victories.

The US was afraid of escalation. ( the soviets coming to the aid of the arabs in person)

Sort of like holding a pit bull on a chain, let it be attacked and bite the attacker but not letting it finish the job.

So the arabs kept attacking and losing. In the meantime the Israelies were experiencing acts of terrorism from palistinians with in their borders.

In order to control the terrrorism they had to resort to represive measures, including forcing arabs out of their homes.

Im using the word arab here. I believe those displaced 60 years ago and during the following wars were mostly muslims.

It is politically popular for the politians in the Muslim states to whip up anti Isreali sentiments.

The reason the Israelis dont want the palistinians to have their own state now is that they fear the Palistinians would simply use it as a place to launch

more attacks against Israel. If history is an indicator, that is what they would do. A lot of Palistinians still deny Israels right to exist.

Many muslims see it as their duty to expel the Jews from the holy land and the US is Israels staunchest ally, therefore a target in a holywar

[^_^ 5,021]

... the most sentimental attachments of the holy sites, Jerusalem, the Wailing Wall, etc.

When you talk of 'holy sites', you talk of God even if you don't use the G-word.

... a moral claim could be made that we were not usurping someone else ...

How so? Other people did live there at the time.

IMO the only 'moral' way to have created Israel would have been to buy land from its owners.

Edited December 19, 2010 by \

[scandal 951]

When you talk of 'holy sites', you talk of God even if you don't use the G-word.

How so? Other people did live there at the time.

IMO the only 'moral' way to have created Israel would have been to buy land from its owners.

Which is precisely what was done. Land was indeed purchased, and there are deed recordings of those sales in the Ottoman records of the day.

Speaking of which, that house you "own" in New Jersey, you do have a complete record of all sales of the land it's built upon going back to the original Native American tribes from which it was "bought", yes?

[^_^ 5,021]

Which is precisely what was done. Land was indeed purchased, and there are deed recordings of those sales in the Ottoman records of the day.

Speaking of which, that house you "own" in New Jersey, you do have a complete record of all sales of the land it's built upon going back to the original Native American tribes from which it was "bought", yes?

I don't own any land. It's a condo.

[Dan and Judy 614]

That's not half bad. Not half bad at all.

There are of course more nuances, particularly with regard to the territories, the Six Day War in which Israel occupied them, and the subsequent 40+ years since 1967. But overall your encapsulation hits the key points quite well.

[SuperDuper! 230]

Which is precisely what was done. Land was indeed purchased, and there are deed recordings of those sales in the Ottoman records of the day.

Speaking of which, that house you "own" in New Jersey, you do have a complete record of all sales of the land it's built upon going back to the original Native American tribes from which it was "bought", yes?

Misrepresentation. Calling a STRAWMAN on this attempt at logical argument.

Not only that, a big BOING! to suck on.

[spookyturtle 9,465]

[Sofiyya 1,687]

My family's land wasn't purchased, it was seized. We still have the deed, that's all.

[B_J 2,752]

OK, let's see if I have this. Without going into details, the modern day Israel was created. It would seem like a good thing to do because of the persecution that the Jewish people had been through. So, land was purchased and Israel was created. BUT, the land was purchased from people who weren't actually planning on selling their land. And the country was created in a place where every other countries in that area didn't want it to be. So, that's where we have the modern day problem in the middle east. And all of this goes back in history; so nobody is going to stop fighting soon.

You know something, and I'm definitely generalizing here, as an American I have trouble understanding this. We've been at war with Germany; but now we're ok. We've been at war with Japan; but now we're ok. We've been at war with ourselves; but now we're ok. One side wins the war and then helps the other side recover. But I guess this war is nothing like that.

I guess I really only have two thoughts/questions:

What do the people involved in the Israeli/Palestinian fight really want? Peace or victory.

And what is the thought process of the Muslim terrorists? What is bin Laden thinking that makes him want to attack us? Is it simply because of our support of Israel?

B.

[luckytxn 2,263]

All the aggression that hard core Muslims have is not just Israel but use that as a focus. The problems in the Sudan and many far flung countries is a struggle for power and the right to establish Muslim law and the flag in countries as far flung as the Philippines. It is that they want world domination. Even Bin Laden said in his own manifesto before he even attacked the U.S. on 9/11 that it was what he wanted. He declared war on us as he saw that we were the largest impediment to that plan and many others have signed on to it and even whole countries like Afghanistan. Of course they are saying other things now and even change their message to suit them to others to try to get sympathizers but they nonetheless want our downfall to further their aims. Even thus I say that we leave the middle east completely and bring the troops home. Sure it will be a victory for them but of course Russia and China will come to try and feel the void and I say let them spend a fortune trying to do so. When they do in the future try to establish military dominance I can sit back and watch how these countries conduct total war and smile knowing they wish that the U.S. was still there to keep a somewhat medium balance.

[SuperDuper! 230]

Someone is out of ideas, and needs to get their own Shtick. It's a no brainer, but so Spooky.

No refute, confirm or deny on Strawman = Pwned.

Edited December 19, 2010 by Boing!

[Dan and Judy 614]

This narrative is an example of some of that one-sided history mentioned before. The "some Jews" that resorted to terrorism are state heroes in Israel, including former prime ministers David Ben Gurion and Menachem Begin. They planned and executed the King John Hotel bombing in 1946 that killed nearly 100 people, including 17 Jews. Many Jews and Jewish organizations condemned the attack and the radicals behind it, including Ben-Gurion, who withdrew his consent at the last minute.

By no means does this reflect poorly on Judaism, but it says something that two terrorists went on to influential careers representing the state on the international stage. It's just another event in history that doesn't seem to count anymore.

Sofi My feelings are hurt. I think you have a chip on your shoulder.

Are you busting my chops because I failed to list the Jewish acts of terrorism?

I was condensing 2000 years into what would have been 4 or 5 paragraphs if I had finished highschool.

The only reason for going back 2000 years is to explain why the Jews felt they had some right to the land.

The WWII part of the story demonstrates why the Jews were desperate enough to take the land by force.

The Palistinians happened to be the people living there when the Jews took the land by the sword.

Im starting to feel persecuted here.

[spookyturtle 9,465]

Someone is out of ideas, and needs to get their own Shtick. It's a no brainer, but so Spooky.

No refute, confirm or deny on Strawman = Pwned.

[SuperDuper! 230]

I'm outta here for now, but am concerned about the Spooks ability. Let's help him find his way. Just be careful, when little kids use similiar argumentative tactics, ya just don't get very far in solving anything, and just end up wasting your time.

[spookyturtle 9,465]