Civility between religions

[B_J 2,752]

As I read this forum, I can't help but notice all the rudeness I see from different religions while both maintain that we are the religion of peace. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

I think Muslim people give Christian/American people credit for too much thought and knowledge of history. Most of us have no idea what the crusades were about. It has never entered our thoughts. So, if you mention the crusades as a reason for anything, you've lost the majority of the Christian/American people. If you mention Israel you will again not make much progress. We don't really understand the reason for the constant battle there. There's a state of Israel and there's no Palestinian state. We know there's talk of two states, but it seems that doesn't make anybody happy and so the battle keeps on going. Most of us think the two state idea sounds great. But seriously, what do we know?

Here's what we know. Some people attacked us. They've attacked us quite a few times, but we never, as an entire country, paid attention until 9/11. And here's what we know. Those people attacked us in the name of Islam. If you try to equate it with Timothy McVeigh being a Christian, that's not a valid comparison. McVeigh attacked for some political reasons, not religious reasons.

Were the guys who attacked us representative of Islam? I sincerely hope not. But there have been so many other attacks and they are always based on the same belief. It's just really confusing. I saw people in other countries celebrating after 9/11. But I also saw some Muslim countries helping us. It's really confusing.

From a Christian/American perspective, we don't really understand what's going on. Let me rephrase, because in this I don't want to speak for everybody. From my perspective, I don't understand what's going on. Why were the plane's flown into the towers? Why did Major Hasan attack his fellow soldiers? Why do people do these things, in these modern times, in the name of their religion? I've read about the treatment of women in Muslim countries. Is this a standard practice? Or am I just reading about things that rarely happens? I don't know much at all about other religions, and honestly, that's alright. I just want to know why some people of a certain religion seem to hate us. Is it because I'm American? Is it because I'm Christian? Are they just religious lunatics that have twisted their religion? The same way people tried to justify killing abortion doctors based on Christian beliefs.

These are sincere questions. If anybody would care to answer them, it would be appreciated. But let's please answer in a peaceful manner. I will in turn answer any sincere questions others might have. I would think a website like this, that has so many people of various religions and cultures, would be able to have civil discussion.

As an addition, I thought about just posting my thoughts onto the other threads, but they had already deteriorated into anger. So I just decided to start a new one. In the naive hope that my wish for civility will be granted.

Edited December 18, 2010 by B_J

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I'm sorry but there's one religion that I cannot be tolerant towards - Macumba, or black magic. If someone gets a hold of a lock of your hair, they can make a voodoo doll of you and stick pins in you, and that's not cool. So to any Macumbans out there, go suck an egg.

[scandal 951]

If you mention Israel you will again not make much progress. We don't really understand the reason for the constant battle there. There's a state of Israel and there's no Palestinian state. We know there's talk of two states, but it seems that doesn't make anybody happy and so the battle keeps on going. Most of us think the two state idea sounds great. But seriously, what do we know?

I applaud your effort. We've had good and civil conversations on controversial topics before on VJ. They don't all go sideways. But this is the Internet after all, and people will say and act online in ways they would never imagine doing in your living room. So don't be surprised if your efforts get derailed.

Regarding the comment above, please do take caution when saying "We". Not all 'we' here are the same. Everyone has different experiences and knowledge and background. I know next to nothing about many subjects and wouldn't presume on them. But the topic you mention above I have much more than a passing familiarity with. I have Israeli citizenship, I lived there for approximately 12 years of my life at various stages, have studied there, work there, speak the language, read the newspapers and the history books, have voted and followed the political scene for decades. That doesn't make me more of an expert than your average armchair Israeli "expert", but I think it's more expertise than you allude to with your "But seriously what do we know?" remark.

This is also not intended to stifle debate from people who don't have my background - I'm happy to discuss with people who have never set foot there and have no real stake. But I do admit to being irritated when remarks are made about "it's all the Jews' fault..if there were no Jews, there would be no Israel,and there would be no problem". Remarks like that get made here with surprising frequency. By that logic, if there were no Americans there would be no American problems either. No one is suggesting (other than al Quaida perhaps) the dismantling of America. The last time someone seriously set out to do something about "if there were no Jews", we got the Holocaust as a result. You'll forgive us for being a little more cautious on the subject of taking our enemies' proclamations seriously.

[B_J 2,752]

I applaud your effort. We've had good and civil conversations on controversial topics before on VJ. They don't all go sideways. But this is the Internet after all, and people will say and act online in ways they would never imagine doing in your living room. So don't be surprised if your efforts get derailed.

Regarding the comment above, please do take caution when saying "We". Not all 'we' here are the same. Everyone has different experiences and knowledge and background. I know next to nothing about many subjects and wouldn't presume on them. But the topic you mention above I have much more than a passing familiarity with. I have Israeli citizenship, I lived there for approximately 12 years of my life at various stages, have studied there, work there, speak the language, read the newspapers and the history books, have voted and followed the political scene for decades. That doesn't make me more of an expert than your average armchair Israeli "expert", but I think it's more expertise than you allude to with your "But seriously what do we know?" remark.

This is also not intended to stifle debate from people who don't have my background - I'm happy to discuss with people who have never set foot there and have no real stake. But I do admit to being irritated when remarks are made about "it's all the Jews' fault..if there were no Jews, there would be no Israel,and there would be no problem". Remarks like that get made here with surprising frequency. By that logic, if there were no Americans there would be no American problems either. No one is suggesting (other than al Quaida perhaps) the dismantling of America. The last time someone seriously set out to do something about "if there were no Jews", we got the Holocaust as a result. You'll forgive us for being a little more cautious on the subject of taking our enemies' proclamations seriously.

Thanks for your reply... I did notice that maybe I shouldn't be saying "we", since I really can't speak for everybody. However, the we I was speaking of was the average American/Christian. Let me just say that every time I use "we", it should just mean every American I've ever known. You obviously have more knowledge about Israel than I do. I just don't understand what all the hostility is about. From what I understand, the nation of Israel was established, I think in the 40's. Correct me if I'm wrong. And then what happened? Did that just make people angry? What's there to be angry about?

What was the cause of 9/11? No American I know was thinking about starting another crusade to spread Christianity to the Muslim world. What did we do that made somebody so angry? What is their viewpoint? Is it because we are allies with Israel?

And because of that, we just anonymously go online and insult each other; while at the same time claiming we represent the more peaceful religion?

Oddly enough, in other areas of these forums, people can be incredibly helpful; but when you come to the this part of the forum, people change. Strange.

B.

[Danno 1,228]

Thanks for your reply... I did notice that maybe I shouldn't be saying "we", since I really can't speak for everybody. However, the we I was speaking of was the average American/Christian. Let me just say that every time I use "we", it should just mean every American I've ever known. You obviously have more knowledge about Israel than I do. I just don't understand what all the hostility is about. From what I understand, the nation of Israel was established, I think in the 40's. Correct me if I'm wrong. And then what happened? Did that just make people angry? What's there to be angry about?

What was the cause of 9/11? No American I know was thinking about starting another crusade to spread Christianity to the Muslim world. What did we do that made somebody so angry? What is their viewpoint? Is it because we are allies with Israel?

And because of that, we just anonymously go online and insult each other; while at the same time claiming we represent the more peaceful religion?

Oddly enough, in other areas of these forums, people can be incredibly helpful; but when you come to the this part of the forum, people change. Strange.

B.

I hear ya..... but thats what swimming in the deep end is all about.

[james&olya 1,121]

I hear ya..... but thats what swimming in the deep end is all about.

The problem is that sometimes it isn't the water that's deep!

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I applaud your effort. We've had good and civil conversations on controversial topics before on VJ. They don't all go sideways. But this is the Internet after all, and people will say and act online in ways they would never imagine doing in your living room. So don't be surprised if your efforts get derailed.

Regarding the comment above, please do take caution when saying "We". Not all 'we' here are the same. Everyone has different experiences and knowledge and background. I know next to nothing about many subjects and wouldn't presume on them. But the topic you mention above I have much more than a passing familiarity with. I have Israeli citizenship, I lived there for approximately 12 years of my life at various stages, have studied there, work there, speak the language, read the newspapers and the history books, have voted and followed the political scene for decades. That doesn't make me more of an expert than your average armchair Israeli "expert", but I think it's more expertise than you allude to with your "But seriously what do we know?" remark.

This is also not intended to stifle debate from people who don't have my background - I'm happy to discuss with people who have never set foot there and have no real stake. But I do admit to being irritated when remarks are made about "it's all the Jews' fault..if there were no Jews, there would be no Israel,and there would be no problem". Remarks like that get made here with surprising frequency. By that logic, if there were no Americans there would be no American problems either. No one is suggesting (other than al Quaida perhaps) the dismantling of America. The last time someone seriously set out to do something about "if there were no Jews", we got the Holocaust as a result. You'll forgive us for being a little more cautious on the subject of taking our enemies' proclamations seriously.

I also caution against taking proclamations of bad people seriously. Terrorists are not normal folks. If they show such poor judgment re how to solve problems and deal with people they don't like, why should anyone take seriously their claim that Islam instructs them to blow people up, commit atrocities, treat minorities and women like second class citizens. It's frustrating that so many people, Christians among them, are more easily influenced by the rantings of madmen cherry-picking a holy book than to believe calm, rational Muslims when they tell you that Islam doesn't condone their acts or their distortions of God's Word.

Yet, they keep insisting the terrorists are right about Islam. It's hard not to believe that their intransigence isn't part of a larger, very negative agenda.

[james&olya 1,121]

I also caution against taking proclamations of bad people seriously. Terrorists are not normal folks. If they show such poor judgment re how to solve problems and deal with people they don't like, why should anyone take seriously their claim that Islam instructs them to blow people up, commit atrocities, treat minorities and women like second class citizens. It's frustrating that so many people, Christians among them, are more easily influenced by the rantings of madmen cherry-picking a holy book than to believe calm, rational Muslims when they tell you that Islam doesn't condone their acts or their distortions of God's Word.

Yet, they keep insisting the terrorists are right about Islam. It's hard not to believe that their intransigence isn't part of a larger, very negative agenda.

My own experience growing up in a very right wing fundamentalist religious family is that the mentality is you must always prove you are right and that other religions are wrong. This takes the form of always focusing on and exaggerating the perceived flaws of the other viewpoint and pretending that your own flaws don't exist. Unfortunately, this way of thinking leads to closed minds and a 'black and white' way of thinking. So it is easy to see why they will gladly seize on the actions of the few fringe elements to justify their condemnation of the entire religion. If they ever were to succeed in getting rid of Islam they would then go back to destroying each other, sect by sect. The mind set values ideology over objective and rational thinking. Until that changes I have little hope we will see the end of this problem.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

My own experience growing up in a very right wing fundamentalist religious family is that the mentality is you must always prove you are right and that other religions are wrong. This takes the form of always focusing on and exaggerating the perceived flaws of the other viewpoint and pretending that your own flaws don't exist. Unfortunately, this way of thinking leads to closed minds and a 'black and white' way of thinking. So it is easy to see why they will gladly seize on the actions of the few fringe elements to justify their condemnation of the entire religion. If they ever were to succeed in getting rid of Islam they would then go back to destroying each other, sect by sect. The mind set values ideology over objective and rational thinking. Until that changes I have little hope we will see the end of this problem.

Excellent observation. Too bad that those who need it most won't get it.

[B_J 2,752]

My own experience growing up in a very right wing fundamentalist religious family is that the mentality is you must always prove you are right and that other religions are wrong. This takes the form of always focusing on and exaggerating the perceived flaws of the other viewpoint and pretending that your own flaws don't exist. Unfortunately, this way of thinking leads to closed minds and a 'black and white' way of thinking. So it is easy to see why they will gladly seize on the actions of the few fringe elements to justify their condemnation of the entire religion. If they ever were to succeed in getting rid of Islam they would then go back to destroying each other, sect by sect. The mind set values ideology over objective and rational thinking. Until that changes I have little hope we will see the end of this problem.

Excellent observation. Too bad that those who need it most won't get it.

I once did a sermon where I got myself in a little bit of trouble. I talked about the worst sin there is. And I decided that the worst sin was: "Other people's sin". We spend so much time noticing how bad everybody else is; we seem to ignore the flaws in ourselves. That just seems kind of relevant right now.

I think we should just realize that you're right: there are some people who are close minded and have a black and white way of thinking. But we shouldn't focus our attention on them. I'm a teacher and we teachers make this same mistake. When a kid is a discipline problem, that seems to be the kid who gets all the attention; instead of the well-behaved kid who wants an education. I think there's people here who would really enjoy knowing more about others and their culture and religions. But instead of focusing on those people, we focus on those who create arguments.

The problem is that sometimes it isn't the water that's deep!

[Dan and Judy 614]

As I read this forum, I can't help but notice all the rudeness I see from different religions while both maintain that we are the religion of peace. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

I think Muslim people give Christian/American people credit for too much thought and knowledge of history. Most of us have no idea what the crusades were about. It has never entered our thoughts. So, if you mention the crusades as a reason for anything, you've lost the majority of the Christian/American people. If you mention Israel you will again not make much progress. We don't really understand the reason for the constant battle there. There's a state of Israel and there's no Palestinian state. We know there's talk of two states, but it seems that doesn't make anybody happy and so the battle keeps on going. Most of us think the two state idea sounds great. But seriously, what do we know?

Here's what we know. Some people attacked us. They've attacked us quite a few times, but we never, as an entire country, paid attention until 9/11. And here's what we know. Those people attacked us in the name of Islam. If you try to equate it with Timothy McVeigh being a Christian, that's not a valid comparison. McVeigh attacked for some political reasons, not religious reasons.

Were the guys who attacked us representative of Islam? I sincerely hope not. But there have been so many other attacks and they are always based on the same belief. It's just really confusing. I saw people in other countries celebrating after 9/11. But I also saw some Muslim countries helping us. It's really confusing.

From a Christian/American perspective, we don't really understand what's going on. Let me rephrase, because in this I don't want to speak for everybody. From my perspective, I don't understand what's going on. Why were the plane's flown into the towers? Why did Major Hasan attack his fellow soldiers? Why do people do these things, in these modern times, in the name of their religion? I've read about the treatment of women in Muslim countries. Is this a standard practice? Or am I just reading about things that rarely happens? I don't know much at all about other religions, and honestly, that's alright. I just want to know why some people of a certain religion seem to hate us. Is it because I'm American? Is it because I'm Christian? Are they just religious lunatics that have twisted their religion? The same way people tried to justify killing abortion doctors based on Christian beliefs.

These are sincere questions. If anybody would care to answer them, it would be appreciated. But let's please answer in a peaceful manner. I will in turn answer any sincere questions others might have. I would think a website like this, that has so many people of various religions and cultures, would be able to have civil discussion.

As an addition, I thought about just posting my thoughts onto the other threads, but they had already deteriorated into anger. So I just decided to start a new one. In the naive hope that my wish for civility will be granted.

I'll take a stab at explaining the Isreali/palistinian/US situation in broad general terms, as objectively as possible.

I don't claim expertise and Im not going to spend hours looking up the details.

a couple thousand years ago the Jews controled the area roughly where Israel is today.

The romans took it from them.

Somebody took it from the romans

and then Somebody else took it from Somebody.

The Jews considered it a holy land, the Christians considered it a holy land and then the Muslims came along and made it one of their holy lands.

It changed hands like 15 times.

There were 5 or 6 crusades over a couple of centuries. The crus would translate to cross which would have been carried by the european christians trying to take control of the holy land.

The land changed hands many times. Usually by the sword.

The Jews meanwhile were scattered in different countries ruled by different religions. they were frequently viewed as outsiders and therefore subjected to persecution. They longed for a

land to call their own and set their sites on Palistine which they felt had some historical right to since god gave it to them. Just prior to WWI the turks controled Palistine and the Jews were

working through imigration and dipomacy to try to get their own little chunk from the turks.

During WWI The british fought against the turks and won. The Jews originally wished to show their allegience to the Turks. But the turks rejected them and pillaged them during the war.

eventually a Jewish legion was formed that helped the british

The arabs in the area had revolted against the turks and helped the british beat them. My understanding is the british had led the

arabs to believe they were fighting for independence but after the turks were beaten. The british decided they should be in charge.

The Lawrence of Arabia book is the story of the arab revolt from an English perspective. Lawrence felt he was the inspiration of, and lead player in the revolt. Some arabs remembered it

differently. Lawrence felt the british betrayed the arabs after the war.

So at the end of WWI the british were in charge. The Jews lobbied the english goverment to give them a separate state. In the Balfour Declaration the british voiced sympathy for the idea.

The arabs lacked the lobbiests in britain but made it clear they weren't happy about the idea and would fight.

The idea stalled for 20 years because giving the Jews their state would require dipossessing the arabs that lived there.

Then came WWII, Jews wanted to immigrate to palistine but the British were discouraging it because it upset the arabs.

during or WWII the Germans loaded Jews on a boats and sent them off. It was a scandal because no country, including the US would let them land

Nobody wanted the Jews so they were stuck out at sea. Different boats had their own story but one with almost 800 on board was turned away from Palistine by the British, It then moved on to

Turkey, the turks towed them back out to sea without food water or gas. Then a soviet submarine sank the boat, only one or two survivors.

After WWII and the holocaust, The Jews were more determined than ever to have their own state. The problem was you had thousands of Jews surrounded by millions of Arabs who were

dead set against the idea. The british were trying to keep it from turning into war. Some Jews resorted to terrorism against the british.

The British turned the problem over to the United Nations, The United Nations voted to partition Palistine.

After the vote went against the arab desires, they started attacking the Jews.

The Jews fought back and won. Then declared their state Of Israel to exist.

Both the Soviets and the US, the power players in the UN had supported the partition.

Since the end of WWII the world was devided into the Soviet camp and the US camp.

After they declared independence the US president decided he wanted Israel in our camp so he was quick to recognize the Jewish State.

That almost immediately made us allies to the Jews and enemies to the arabs.

The Soviets ended up backing the arabs in about 6 wars of annihilation against the Jews.

With US backing the Israelis won each of the wars and then were restrained by the US from taking full advantage of their victories.

The US was afraid of escalation. ( the soviets coming to the aid of the arabs in person)

Sort of like holding a pit bull on a chain, let it be attacked and bite the attacker but not letting it finish the job.

So the arabs kept attacking and losing. In the meantime the Israelies were experiencing acts of terrorism from palistinians with in their borders.

In order to control the terrrorism they had to resort to represive measures, including forcing arabs out of their homes.

Im using the word arab here. I believe those displaced 60 years ago and during the following wars were mostly muslims.

It is politically popular for the politians in the Muslim states to whip up anti Isreali sentiments.

The reason the Israelis dont want the palistinians to have their own state now is that they fear the Palistinians would simply use it as a place to launch

more attacks against Israel. If history is an indicator, that is what they would do. A lot of Palistinians still deny Israels right to exist.

Many muslims see it as their duty to expel the Jews from the holy land and the US is Israels staunchest ally, therefore a target in a holywar

[SuperDuper! 230]

Excellent observation. Too bad that those who need it most won't get it.

Even if "they" get it, it won't do any good. People don't/won't change. Especially in 1000+ year wars.

[scandal 951]

I'll take a stab at explaining the Isreali/palistinian/US situation in broad general terms, as objectively as possible.

I don't claim expertise and Im not going to spend hours looking up the details.

a couple thousand years ago the Jews controled the area roughly where Israel is today.

The romans took it from them.

Somebody took it from the romans

and then Somebody else took it from Somebody.

The Jews considered it a holy land, the Christians considered it a holy land and then the Muslims came along and made it one of their holy lands.

It changed hands like 15 times.

There were 5 or 6 crusades over a couple of centuries. The crus would translate to cross which would have been carried by the european christians trying to take control of the holy land.

The land changed hands many times. Usually by the sword.

The Jews meanwhile were scattered in different countries ruled by different religions. they were frequently viewed as outsiders and therefore subjected to persecution. They longed for a

land to call their own and set their sites on Palistine which they felt had some historical right to since god gave it to them. Just prior to WWI the turks controled Palistine and the Jews were

working through imigration and dipomacy to try to get their own little chunk from the turks.

During WWI The british fought against the turks and won. The Jews originally wished to show their allegience to the Turks. But the turks rejected them and pillaged them during the war.

eventually a Jewish legion was formed that helped the british

The arabs in the area had revolted against the turks and helped the british beat them. My understanding is the british had led the

arabs to believe they were fighting for independence but after the turks were beaten. The british decided they should be in charge.

The Lawrence of Arabia book is the story of the arab revolt from an English perspective. Lawrence felt he was the inspiration of, and lead player in the revolt. Some arabs remembered it

differently. Lawrence felt the british betrayed the arabs after the war.

So at the end of WWI the british were in charge. The Jews lobbied the english goverment to give them a separate state. In the Balfour Declaration the british voiced sympathy for the idea.

The arabs lacked the lobbiests in britain but made it clear they weren't happy about the idea and would fight.

The idea stalled for 20 years because giving the Jews their state would require dipossessing the arabs that lived there.

Then came WWII, Jews wanted to immigrate to palistine but the British were discouraging it because it upset the arabs.

during or WWII the Germans loaded Jews on a boats and sent them off. It was a scandal because no country, including the US would let them land

Nobody wanted the Jews so they were stuck out at sea. Different boats had their own story but one with almost 800 on board was turned away from Palistine by the British, It then moved on to

Turkey, the turks towed them back out to sea without food water or gas. Then a soviet submarine sank the boat, only one or two survivors.

After WWII and the holocaust, The Jews were more determined than ever to have their own state. The problem was you had thousands of Jews surrounded by millions of Arabs who were

dead set against the idea. The british were trying to keep it from turning into war. Some Jews resorted to terrorism against the british.

The British turned the problem over to the United Nations, The United Nations voted to partition Palistine.

After the vote went against the arab desires, they started attacking the Jews.

The Jews fought back and won. Then declared their state Of Israel to exist.

Both the Soviets and the US, the power players in the UN had supported the partition.

Since the end of WWII the world was devided into the Soviet camp and the US camp.

After they declared independence the US president decided he wanted Israel in our camp so he was quick to recognize the Jewish State.

That almost immediately made us allies to the Jews and enemies to the arabs.

The Soviets ended up backing the arabs in about 6 wars of annihilation against the Jews.

With US backing the Israelis won each of the wars and then were restrained by the US from taking full advantage of their victories.

The US was afraid of escalation. ( the soviets coming to the aid of the arabs in person)

Sort of like holding a pit bull on a chain, let it be attacked and bite the attacker but not letting it finish the job.

So the arabs kept attacking and losing. In the meantime the Israelies were experiencing acts of terrorism from palistinians with in their borders.

In order to control the terrrorism they had to resort to represive measures, including forcing arabs out of their homes.

Im using the word arab here. I believe those displaced 60 years ago and during the following wars were mostly muslims.

It is politically popular for the politians in the Muslim states to whip up anti Isreali sentiments.

The reason the Israelis dont want the palistinians to have their own state now is that they fear the Palistinians would simply use it as a place to launch

more attacks against Israel. If history is an indicator, that is what they would do. A lot of Palistinians still deny Israels right to exist.

Many muslims see it as their duty to expel the Jews from the holy land and the US is Israels staunchest ally, therefore a target in a holywar

That's not half bad. Not half bad at all.

There are of course more nuances, particularly with regard to the territories, the Six Day War in which Israel occupied them, and the subsequent 40+ years since 1967. But overall your encapsulation hits the key points quite well.

[^_^ 5,021]

They longed for a land to call their own and set their sites on Palistine which they felt had some historical right to since god gave it to them.

The joke's on them because there is no God

[scandal 951]

The joke's on them because there is no God

Back in the first Zionist Congresses there was serious discussion of recreating the Jewish homeland elsewhere. Uganda was given serious consideration. Eventually it was agreed that the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people was the correct choice, since it had the most sentimental attachments of the holy sites, Jerusalem, the Wailing Wall, etc. And because a moral claim could be made that we were not usurping someone else, we were returning to our original home. Most of the participants in that Zionist congress, particularly Herzl, were secular non-practicing Jews. God didn't play much of a role in the discussion.