Sharia Law Comes to Dearborn, Michigan?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Thank you, ErikaAndHamit. I've spent my life in study of the faith and trying to put it into good practice to please God. I appreciate your comments. It's always nice when someone notices and gives positive feedback.

Nagi, in the case of that photo, ugly works

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I am very impressed by your points Sofiyya. You are 100% correct and know your stuff. Your "travel log" pictures are proof positive that Christianity is alive and well in most Muslim countries and I think the others were genuinely surprised by the visual. The photos alone says A LOT. They really are trying to start a fight and ignore the truth. What they fail to understand that most Muslims wouldn't convert "free" or otherwise. Anyhow, I hate coming across threads like this about various topics, not just religion, where people twist and turn things and make everything ugly.

Some people here were surprised by the photos, no doubt. I've seen posts declaring that not only are there few churches in the Muslim world, but that the ones that exist cannot be grander than any masjid. Well, as we can see, there are any fabulous and well-loved churches, and that is only a tiny percentage of the cities where they are found. In most Muslim countries, there are multiple churches in each large city and even in the countryside.

Saudi Arabia, often falsely referred to as representive of the entire Muslim world, is the exception, not the rule, and even there, the government has consented to the building of Catholic churches, if only the Church would agree to recognize the Prophet Muhammad as a man of God. They won't, so that county remains churchless, as does the sovereign Vatican City.

[evli1966 88]

Some people here were surprised by the photos, no doubt. I've seen posts declaring that not only are there few churches in the Muslim world, but that the ones that exist cannot be grander than any masjid. Well, as we can see, there are any fabulous and well-loved churches, and that is only a tiny percentage of the cities where they are found. In most Muslim countries, there are multiple churches in each large city and even in the countryside.

Saudi Arabia, often falsely referred to as representive of the entire Muslim world, is the exception, not the rule, and even there, the government has consented to the building of Catholic churches, if only the Church would agree to recognize the Prophet Muhammad as a man of God. They won't, so that county remains churchless, as does the sovereign Vatican City.

Please do not think I am posting negatively.

So if they christians so wish a christian church could build in any muslim city?

Also Christians are allowed to openly practice their faith and spread the word of their fath in all muslim countries?

I understand Saudi is the exception so you shouldn't need to mention them and I understand there are none there at this time.

thank you for answering my questions.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Please do not think I am posting negatively.

So if they christians so wish a christian church could build in any muslim city?

Also Christians are allowed to openly practice their faith and spread the word of their fath in all muslim countries?

I understand Saudi is the exception so you shouldn't need to mention them and I understand there are none there at this time.

thank you for answering my questions.

Thank you for asking.

I'm not aware of all the laws governing buidling and zoning in each city, There are churches in many cities in Muslim countries, as the photos show. Most churches are openly Christian, large and imposing with crosses and even stained glass depicting Biblical scenes. Everyone is aware of Christian celebrations, as they are openly celebrated in most Muslim countries, as they are here, with Santa Claus and Christmas trees, the Easter bunny, etc.

Christmas in Istanbul . . .

Christmas in Tehran . . .

A Christian procession in Morocco . . .

It's not a big deal that there are Christian traditions in the Muslim world. Christianity has been the ME longer than Islam, and has co-existed there for centuries. Islam shares major personalities, like Moses, Abraham, Adam, with Christianity and Judaism. I enjoy surprising Christian proselytizers who ask "Do you know Jesus", and I say "Yes, I'm Muslim and we all know Jesus." Jesus is a venerated Prophet in Islam, one who will return on the Last Day. We love Jesus and share with Christians our love of him. We love Mary, the virgin mother of Jesus. She is, in fact, the only woman mentioned by name in the Quran, and she is referred to more often there than in the Bible. With our Jewish brethren, we share the love of God as the One and Only Creator.

The Quran refers to learned Christians and Jews as those who received the Message before us, and to Christians ad Jews as a whole as ahl al kitab, "People of the Book". God requires us to seek ways to Him as a whole, not as divided or with beliefs of superiority, for we are cautioned not to believe we are chosen people. Those who are chosen will know on the Day of Judgment, and not all of them may be Muslim.

Proselytizing by Christians to Muslims with the intent of converting them is not allowed, but vigorous discussions about religion are not uncommon, especially in mixed faith Middle Eastern families. Islam allows marriage between Christians and Jews, although the rule has been interpreted widely to apply only to marriage between Muslim men. As a Muslima married to a Christian who traveled openly with me throughout the ME with me, I can attest to the vigorous discussions first hand lol. Conversion by Muslims does happen, and there is hostility toward them, but that is not uncommon in most countries with large, dominant groups that demand conformity.

I hope that helps.

Edited June 27, 2010 by Sofiyya

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I can't type on this little screen lol.

Correction: Islam allows marriage between Christians and Jews, although the rule has been interpreted widely to apply only to marriage between Muslim men and kitabi women.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

Christians can not build their Churches "in any" Muslim country, some are more tolerant than others, and to a great degree it would depend on if any given country were predominantly Muslim, or predominantly Christian, or a close mix of both. The barricades built around many of the Churches shown earlier in this thread are there for the same reason barricades remain around many of our government offices here in the USA.

It is speculation, but highly unlikely ANY predominantly Muslim nation would allow the building of a Christian Church anywhere near an area which the Muslim community felt a great and religiously motivated crime perpetrated in the name of Christianity had taken place, even if the event was hundreds of years in the past.

While Saudi may be the extreme in terms of lack of religious tolerance, and some Muslim countries are quite progressive at least viewed in the light of the Saudi's, I can think of few if any Muslim countries that honor freedom of religion, the right to openly practice one's faith unless it is the faith of Islam, and spread the word again unless it is the word of Islam, to the extent we practice it here in America. As such, Islam is far more progressively practiced here than in many other places around the world.

The reverse is also be true, whenever any religion dominates politics and policy, suppression of opposing religions is a danger and often becomes reality. This fact holds true across religions and geographical areas throughout time.

I have been repeatedly excoriated for claiming all of Islam is evil and pro-terrorist, something which I have never claimed. Reality is far more complicated than that.

My education on the subject is ongoing, my mind wide open, despite false claims to the contrary. Earlier in this thread, although it was perhaps in another, a challenge to look for good about Islam was laid down, and in point of fact I have looked prior. Some of the good things, still studying so first blush assumptions could turn out wrong were these:

The Three Points of the Amman Message Very interesting site regarding Jordan's King Abdullah II's attempt to bring order and agreement to the various schools of thought in Islam.

The Islamic Society of North America Their mission statement is an interesting read.

Claiming Christianity as your religion is no more a guarantee you are a good person than claiming faith in Islam is a guarantee you support or are in fact a terrorist. Indeed reality is far more complicated than that.

[alienlovechild 75]

Saudi Arabia, often falsely referred to as representive of the entire Muslim world, is the exception, not the rule, and even there, the government has consented to the building of Catholic churches, if only the Church would agree to recognize the Prophet Muhammad as a man of God. They won't, so that county remains churchless, as does the sovereign Vatican City.

Somewhat of a false comparison there as the Vatican City is tiny compared to Saudi Arabia and there are mosques in Rome. In any case, Saudi Arabia provides the money to build mosques around the world thanks to countries which don't demand that the state decide which faiths are allowed to be practiced and which aren't.

It's not just the Catholic Church but aren't any non-Muslim houses of worship in Saudi Arabia. The Saudis insist that since the substantial foreign population are mostly there temporarily, they don't need to establish any non-Muslim structures. There hasn't been any change since 2008 and it's a safe bet there won't be any Christian churches anytime soon.

"Presiding over the cradle of Islam and home to its holiest sites, the Saudi monarchy has long banned the open worship of other faiths, even as the number of Catholics resident in Saudi Arabia has risen to 800,000 thanks to an influx of immigrant workers from places like the Philippines and India. Mosques are the only houses of prayer in a country where the strict Wahhabi version of Sunni Islam dominates. But Archbishop Paul-Mounged El-Hachem, the papal envoy to the smaller countries on the Arabian peninsula, such as Kuwait and Qatar, has confirmed that talks are under way to establish formal diplomatic relations between the Vatican and Saudi Arabia, and to eventually allow for Catholic churches to be built there. Pope Benedict XVI is believed to have personally appealed to King Abdullah on the topic during the Saudi monarch's first ever visit to the Vatican last November.

Top Vatican spokesman Father Federico Lombardi said that a Catholic parish in this key Islamic country would be "a historic achievement" in the push to expand religious freedom and foster a positive interfaith rapport. Under Benedict, the Catholic hierarchy has stepped up calls from its Muslim counterparts for "reciprocity," demanding that the same religious freedom enjoyed by Muslims in the West should be granted to Christian minorities in the Islamic world. They note that Europe's biggest mosque, built with Saudi funds, was opened in 1995 in Rome, just across the river from the Vatican.

While Christians in those areas trace their roots to the earliest centuries of the faith, the Catholics in Saudi Arabia are mostly migrant workers. And the restrictions on any outward manifestation of their religious beliefs have been particularly severe. The celebration of non-Muslim holidays is forbidden, as is the wearing of crucifixes and other religious symbols."

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1723715,00.html

[Sofiyya 1,687]

There is no false comparison between Saudi not having any churches and Vatican City not having any masjids. I know that is a popular claim, but both are sovereign countries, and both claim alligence, protection and promotion of one faith. It seems as if it is considered by non-Muslims to be heresy to mention that when it applies to the Vatican, but it is mandatory to mention that Saudi doesn't allow churches, as if there is some right to have a church in every country. Muslims don't whine about not having masjids in the Vatican Get over it.

Somewhat of a false comparison there as the Vatican City is tiny compared to Saudi Arabia and there are mosques in Rome. In any case, Saudi Arabia provides the money to build mosques around the world thanks to countries which don't demand that the state decide which faiths are allowed to be practiced and which aren't.

It's not just the Catholic Church but aren't any non-Muslim houses of worship in Saudi Arabia. The Saudis insist that since the substantial foreign population are mostly there temporarily, they don't need to establish any non-Muslim structures. There hasn't been any change since 2008 and it's a safe bet there won't be any Christian churches anytime soon.

"Presiding over the cradle of Islam and home to its holiest sites, the Saudi monarchy has long banned the open worship of other faiths, even as the number of Catholics resident in Saudi Arabia has risen to 800,000 thanks to an influx of immigrant workers from places like the Philippines and India. Mosques are the only houses of prayer in a country where the strict Wahhabi version of Sunni Islam dominates. But Archbishop Paul-Mounged El-Hachem, the papal envoy to the smaller countries on the Arabian peninsula, such as Kuwait and Qatar, has confirmed that talks are under way to establish formal diplomatic relations between the Vatican and Saudi Arabia, and to eventually allow for Catholic churches to be built there. Pope Benedict XVI is believed to have personally appealed to King Abdullah on the topic during the Saudi monarch's first ever visit to the Vatican last November.

Top Vatican spokesman Father Federico Lombardi said that a Catholic parish in this key Islamic country would be "a historic achievement" in the push to expand religious freedom and foster a positive interfaith rapport. Under Benedict, the Catholic hierarchy has stepped up calls from its Muslim counterparts for "reciprocity," demanding that the same religious freedom enjoyed by Muslims in the West should be granted to Christian minorities in the Islamic world. They note that Europe's biggest mosque, built with Saudi funds, was opened in 1995 in Rome, just across the river from the Vatican.

While Christians in those areas trace their roots to the earliest centuries of the faith, the Catholics in Saudi Arabia are mostly migrant workers. And the restrictions on any outward manifestation of their religious beliefs have been particularly severe. The celebration of non-Muslim holidays is forbidden, as is the wearing of crucifixes and other religious symbols."

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1723715,00.html

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Wow. I'm impressed. You have made an effort to learn that must be recognized It is much appreciated not to always be at odds when discussing a subject so close to my heart.

However, I need to caution about the use of the word "progressive" when it comes to Islamic practice. Islam is not progressive in the current use of the term to mean liberal. Moderation in practice is what is expected of Muslims, not liberalism. Islam is intended by the Creator to to be dynamic, flexible and merciful, but, unfortunately is often not practiced that way because tribal traditions supercede faith.

Islam sets limits, promotes order and is legalistic in nature, so progressive is not a word knowledgable Muslims would use to describe our practice in the west. In enclaves where Muslims from a particular region of the world are concentrated, it is not uncommon to find tradition impeding proper Islamic practice. Avoiding shame and saving face are especially strong motivators that contnue to distort interpretation and practice among American Muslim populations. However it may appear from the utside, from inside the communities, progressive would not be the norm.

Christians can not build their Churches "in any" Muslim country, some are more tolerant than others, and to a great degree it would depend on if any given country were predominantly Muslim, or predominantly Christian, or a close mix of both. The barricades built around many of the Churches shown earlier in this thread are there for the same reason barricades remain around many of our government offices here in the USA.

It is speculation, but highly unlikely ANY predominantly Muslim nation would allow the building of a Christian Church anywhere near an area which the Muslim community felt a great and religiously motivated crime perpetrated in the name of Christianity had taken place, even if the event was hundreds of years in the past.

While Saudi may be the extreme in terms of lack of religious tolerance, and some Muslim countries are quite progressive at least viewed in the light of the Saudi's, I can think of few if any Muslim countries that honor freedom of religion, the right to openly practice one's faith unless it is the faith of Islam, and spread the word again unless it is the word of Islam, to the extent we practice it here in America. As such, Islam is far more progressively practiced here than in many other places around the world.

The reverse is also be true, whenever any religion dominates politics and policy, suppression of opposing religions is a danger and often becomes reality. This fact holds true across religions and geographical areas throughout time.

I have been repeatedly excoriated for claiming all of Islam is evil and pro-terrorist, something which I have never claimed. Reality is far more complicated than that.

My education on the subject is ongoing, my mind wide open, despite false claims to the contrary. Earlier in this thread, although it was perhaps in another, a challenge to look for good about Islam was laid down, and in point of fact I have looked prior. Some of the good things, still studying so first blush assumptions could turn out wrong were these:

The Three Points of the Amman Message Very interesting site regarding Jordan's King Abdullah II's attempt to bring order and agreement to the various schools of thought in Islam.

The Islamic Society of North America Their mission statement is an interesting read.

Claiming Christianity as your religion is no more a guarantee you are a good person than claiming faith in Islam is a guarantee you support or are in fact a terrorist. Indeed reality is far more complicated than that.

Edited June 27, 2010 by Sofiyya

[ready4ONE 5,400]

Wow. I'm impressed. You have made an effort to learn that must be recognized It is much appreciated not to always be at odds when discussing a subject so close to my heart.

However, I need to caution about the use of the word "progressive" when it comes to Islamic practice. Islam is not progressive in the current use of the term to mean liberal. Moderation in practice is what is expected of Muslims, not liberalism. Islam is intended by the Creator to to be dynamic, flexible and merciful, but, unfortunately is often not practiced that way because tribal traditions supercede faith.

Islam sets limits, promotes order and is legalistic in nature, so progressive is not a word knowledgable Muslims would use to describe our practice in the west. In enclaves where Muslims from a particular region of the world are concentrated, it is not uncommon to find tradition impeding proper Islamic practice. Avoiding shame and saving face are especially strong motivators that contnue to distort interpretation and practice among American Muslim populations. However it may appear from the utside, from inside the communities, progressive would not be the norm.

I stand corrected on my use of the word progressive. :-) I absolutely understand your point about tribal traditions superseding the faith in certain regions, that is a great point to make.

[NVC FAN :( 18]

This story does not surprise me , in 2000 i worked in this area as a "cable guy"in dearborn, coming from southern indiana, i found it strange that in america street signs were actually written in arabic instead of english. at that time i knew that i was the minority in this part of the world. I am glad i moved back to southern indiana from dearborn, my only hope and wish is that all these ppl stay up north in dearborn, and do not intrude on my birthplace. I doubt the ppl here would allow it to get as bad as it has in dearborn.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

[quote name=NVC FAN ' date='27 June 2010 - 06:53 PM' timestamp='1277686388' post='4031505]

This story does not surprise me , in 2000 i worked in this area as a "cable guy"in dearborn, coming from southern indiana, i found it strange that in america street signs were actually written in arabic instead of english. at that time i knew that i was the minority in this part of the world. I am glad i moved back to southern indiana from dearborn, my only hope and wish is that all these ppl stay up north in dearborn, and do not intrude on my birthplace. I doubt the ppl here would allow it to get as bad as it has in dearborn.

why is Dearborn bad?

[Ban Hammer 12,842]

why is Dearborn bad?

i would suspect street signs in arabic make navigation a bit difficult.

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

Except I have never seen any Arabic street signs in Dearborn. This is an area I know well as I grew up nearby and went to church there, so some of the characterizations some people are coming up with here are hilarious.

Like I said earlier in the thread, most of the Arab population of that area are as American as apple pie....and a significant proportion of them are not even muslim, many are chaldeans (look it up)

[sandinista! 1,816]

Except I have never seen any Arabic street signs in Dearborn. This is an area I know well as I grew up nearby and went to church there, so some of the characterizations some people are coming up with here are hilarious.

Like I said earlier in the thread, most of the Arab population of that area are as American as apple pie....and a significant proportion of them are not even muslim, many are chaldeans (look it up)

thank you, i was just going to say the same thing. (except for the having grown up or gone to church nearby)talk about yr invented outrage...

there's a bunch of photos of street scenes here. photos of warren ave. are about halfway down.

it looks like a lot of the arabic signs on the storefronts are transliterated too.