Save Israel

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Oh, Armchair General, you're so brave and macho!

Just a bit Irish, that's all. Fighting is one of the three best things in the world to an Irishman.

[Pooky 3,365]

Just a bit Irish, that's all. Fighting is one of the three best things in the world to an Irishman.

And the other two are ... fighting and fighting?

[mawilson 2,133]

And the other two are ... fighting and fighting?

I'm guessing #2 is drinking, and #3 is ...?

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

That was in reply to your statement, that the Polish Jews did not fire rockets at innocent civilians. Those innocent civilians, I assume, are folks that are not stopping the atrocities committed by those fighting on their behalf. It was in that context, that I was referring to.

But I never indicated the civilians were innocent in the first place, that's why I'm still not convinced that was your meaning.

On the other hand if I take this statement above with some of your others then you are condoning the rocket attacks by Hamas because you feel the general Israeli population isn't innocent?

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

But I never indicated the civilians were innocent in the first place, that's why I'm still not convinced that was your meaning.

Were the Jews in Warsaw firing rockets at a civilian population? No. It is not the same at all.

On the other hand if I take this statement above with some of your others then you are condoning the rocket attacks by Hamas because you feel the general Israeli population isn't innocent?

You tell me.

Perhaps Hamas thinks that. There are lots of perspectives in the world. 99.99% percent of the people in the world think theirs is the correct one. Understanding is more that just condemning the actions of other folks when it conflicts with your view of the world.

In a democracy, the government acts on the behalf of the electorate, not the other way around, as it would be in say an autocracy. Much the same way the US Government is supposed to be acting on our behalf in Iraq/Iran and in Afghanistan/Pakistan. If that is not the case, then perhaps we should have elected a president that would withdraw from both places as soon as he or she was sworn into office.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

You tell me.

Perhaps Hamas thinks that. There are lots of perspectives in the world. 99.99% percent of the people in the world think theirs is the correct one. Understanding is more that just condemning the actions of other folks when it conflicts with your view of the world.

In a democracy, the government acts on the behalf of the electorate, not the other way around, as it would be in say an autocracy. Much the same way the US Government is supposed to be acting on our behalf in Iraq/Iran and in Afghanistan/Pakistan. If that is not the case, then perhaps we should have elected a president that would withdraw from both places as soon as he or she was sworn into office.

Then from what you have written, I would conclude you do.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

I'm guessing #2 is drinking, and #3 is ...?

Confessing your sins to Father Pat, on Saturday, with just a wee bit of bragging.

Then from what you have written, I would conclude you do.

You would be mistaken. Understanding is not the same as condoning.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Confessing your sins to Father Pat, on Saturday, with just a wee bit of bragging.

You would be mistaken. Understanding is not the same as condoning.

It was subtle but there is a clear connection.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

It was subtle but there is a clear connection.

You should read this, if you haven't already:

http://www.artofwarsuntzu.com/Art%20of%20War%20PDF.pdf

[daboyz 36]

You should read this, if you haven't already:

http://www.artofwarsuntzu.com/Art%20of%20War%20PDF.pdf

Yeah we get it. You're a ninja. I split my head trying to break my head on an ice cube.

This thread is not even serious now. What a lame a$$ link. I dont care how many hearts you have.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

And who would give a plus one to this filth? To say that the Jews lack innocence because they did not resist is absolutely disgusting!

No 1. In many ghettos they fought back against the SS soldiers when they entered the camps. Infact polish resistence armed them with machine guns.

No 2. Many didn't actually know what was going to happen to them until they were already being killed.

That post actually scares me. Moreover it invalidates many of the previous arguments, as coming from a "Neutral position"

I don't think it's been very well explained but I have read this argument before and there is some merit to it - but obviously not if you come at it from the point of view of assigning blame to people. Obviously it's easy for people 70+ years later to look back on horrible history and say that the Jews were sheep for failing to resist (and in some cases) actually collaborating in their own demise, but not having lived amid those circumstances noone here is really in any credible position to render judgement.

However, this IS an area that has been of interest to psychologists following the end of the war; specifically how essential humanity goes out of the window in desperate circumstances. Some facts:

1) You have people walking into the gas chambers without offering any resistance whatsoever and in full knowledge of EXACTLY what was going to happen to them (this wasn't true in the beginning when people still believed that the concentration camps were about forced labour rather than extermination; but towards the later years of the war - what was going on in Auschwitz, Treblinka, Dachau etc. wasn't a secret).

2) Some prisoners volunteered to join work crews to operate the gas chambers and the crematoria (it wasn't the Nazis that did this, it was the prisoners) in return for better food and conditions. In reality they extended their lives for about 3 months, during which time if they hadn't committed suicide from the trauma of what they witnessed, they were put up against a wall and shot so that a fresh work crew could be rotated in.

3) You are correct to state that there was indeed armed resistance in the camps and the ghettos; but there was no mass resistance. It's interesting from the point of view that when you consider that there were only a few hundred SS officers in Auschwitz and the most famous revolt in that camp by one of the work crews resulted in the deaths of several SS officers and the destruction of one of the crematoria. Its not difficult to see how if more had resisted the SS wouldn't have been able to carry out the extermination policy - and fewer people would have died.

Again, it's easy to speculate on these things not having faced the desperate circumstances faced by those people, but from a purely logical point of view if you know you're going to die anyway, you lose nothing by trying to kill the people who are trying to kill you. Practically what happens (and what did happen) is that people will do anything to survive, even if it means directly collaborating with their executioners.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Yeah we get it. You're a ninja. I split my head trying to break my head on an ice cube.

This thread is not even serious now. What a lame a$$ link. I dont care how many hearts you have.

You don't appreciate the Art of War by Sun Tzu? How about Clauswitz's On War ?

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

I don't think it's been very well explained but I have read this argument before and there is some merit to it - but obviously not if you come at it from the point of view of assigning blame to people. Obviously it's easy for people 70+ years later to look back on horrible history and say that the Jews were sheep for failing to resist (and in some cases) actually collaborating in their own demise, but not having lived amid those circumstances noone here is really in any credible position to render judgement.

However, this IS an area that has been of interest to psychologists following the end of the war; specifically how essential humanity goes out of the window in desperate circumstances. Some facts:

1) You have people walking into the gas chambers without offering any resistance whatsoever and in full knowledge of EXACTLY what was going to happen to them (this wasn't true in the beginning when people still believed that the concentration camps were about forced labour rather than extermination; but towards the later years of the war - what was going on in Auschwitz, Treblinka, Dachau etc. wasn't a secret).

2) Some prisoners volunteered to join work crews to operate the gas chambers and the crematoria (it wasn't the Nazis that did this, it was the prisoners) in return for better food and conditions. In reality they extended their lives for about 3 months, during which time if they hadn't committed suicide from the trauma of what they witnessed, they were put up against a wall and shot so that a fresh work crew could be rotated in.

3) You are correct to state that there was indeed armed resistance in the camps and the ghettos; but there was no mass resistance. It's interesting from the point of view that when you consider that there were only a few hundred SS officers in Auschwitz and the most famous revolt in that camp by one of the work crews resulted in the deaths of several SS officers and the destruction of one of the crematoria. Its not difficult to see how if more had resisted the SS wouldn't have been able to carry out the extermination policy - and fewer people would have died.

Again, it's easy to speculate on these things not having faced the desperate circumstances faced by those people, but from a purely logical point of view if you know you're going to die anyway, you lose nothing by trying to kill the people who are trying to kill you. Practically what happens (and what did happen) is that people will do anything to survive, even if it means directly collaborating with their executioners.

How could these people even have the strength to resist?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I'm not sure what you want me to say.

[Ggreen 12]

How could these people even have the strength to resist?

Starvation is one of the weapons used for genocide, it is too sad that Israel is using it against Gaza now.