Onlookers laugh during teen girl's gang rape

[scandal 951]

Perhaps many of the people responding to this thread are too young to have heard of Kitty Genovese.

She was raped and brutally stabbed to death in New York in 1964 while all of her neighbors heard her screaming, and yet none called for help or came to her aid until it was too late.

The crime itself was sensational and made headlines at the time.

The lack of response by her neighbors was even more sensational. Countless newspaper editorials considered it the final proof of the decay of modern society, and that we were descending hopelessly into a cesspool of violence and crime and indifference.

That was 1964. 45 years ago.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[Chica Yeyé 41]

Perhaps many of the people responding to this thread are too young to have heard of Kitty Genovese.

She was raped and brutally stabbed to death in New York in 1964 while all of her neighbors heard her screaming, and yet none called for help or came to her aid until it was too late.

The crime itself was sensational and made headlines at the time.

The lack of response by her neighbors was even more sensational. Countless newspaper editorials considered it the final proof of the decay of modern society, and that we were descending hopelessly into a cesspool of violence and crime and indifference.

That was 1964. 45 years ago.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

WORD and

[spookyturtle 9,465]

Is it really the truth though?

Have these problems of violence really moved beyond the failing schools in the traditionally bad areas?

I firmly believe that the violence is making its way beyond the usual bad areas. What about Columbine and other small town tragedies? I remember when Brockton, MA was a great community. Not so true anymore. And I'm sure it's not limited to my area and experiences.

I live close to Brockton and I know of its reputation, but there's always the old-age debate about whether certain neighborhoods create crime or if crime creates certain neighborhoods. Studies have shown that there are high crime rates in areas of low employment/economic/living standards.

Now I only read a bit of this topic, and I have noticed that there are more awful stories out there nowadays about how teenagers behave. I don't know if that's because the media are playing it up; if people are jumping on the "teenagers are awful nowadays" wagon and telling their own experiences more; if teenagers have actually become desensitized to crime and that type of behaviour; if discipline in schools has dropped; or even if it SEEMS like teenage crime has gone up because I'm still so young - so I'm only recently seeing things from an outside perspective.

However, I will say that it's not so simple to say "parents do not know how to raise kids these days". There has ALWAYS been crime among teenagers, and for all we know, it's just that more cases are made public now. How many times have people spoke about abuse, rape, assault and drugs from their childhood/youth - and added that in those days, you just never spoke about it? We do know that domestic violence has always existed, for example. But we hear about it more now because it's an open subject often discussed in the media, not just something that was left to "marital business behind closed doors".

So you don't think it's any worse than it was years ago? The murder rate of young people is similar to decades ago?

[Danno 1,228]

Perhaps many of the people responding to this thread are too young to have heard of Kitty Genovese.

She was raped and brutally stabbed to death in New York in 1964 while all of her neighbors heard her screaming, and yet none called for help or came to her aid until it was too late.

The crime itself was sensational and made headlines at the time.

The lack of response by her neighbors was even more sensational. Countless newspaper editorials considered it the final proof of the decay of modern society, and that we were descending hopelessly into a cesspool of violence and crime and indifference.

That was 1964. 45 years ago.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Did you miss the part where it was huge news... so much so that most have heard of the historic case half a century later?

When this happens today... it is barely statewide in coverage.

Do you think anyone will remember this case of a student being raped and beaten.. even next year?

Or the fact that by-standers joined in or took pics to text their friends....

And you conclude "same ole same ole"?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I thought this was interesting.

[scandal 951]

Perhaps many of the people responding to this thread are too young to have heard of Kitty Genovese.

She was raped and brutally stabbed to death in New York in 1964 while all of her neighbors heard her screaming, and yet none called for help or came to her aid until it was too late.

The crime itself was sensational and made headlines at the time.

The lack of response by her neighbors was even more sensational. Countless newspaper editorials considered it the final proof of the decay of modern society, and that we were descending hopelessly into a cesspool of violence and crime and indifference.

That was 1964. 45 years ago.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Did you miss the part where it was huge news... so much so that most have heard of the historic case half a century later?

When this happens today... it is barely statewide in coverage.

Do you think anyone will remember this case of a student being raped and beaten.. even next year?

Or the fact that by-standers joined in or took pics to text their friends....

And you conclude "same ole same ole"?

Oh, I don't know.

Stories like this do make the news today. The Duke University Lacrosse team comes to mind. So does Elizabeth Smart's abduction. It's a bit quirky what will make the national headlines and what won't. Balloon boy is headline news, go figure.

I didn't say "same old same old". I said "The more things change, the more they stay the same."

Senseless violence is not new or unique to our times. Blacks have been lynched, Jews have been pogrom'ed, and Christians have been fed to the Lions, all while the assembled masses cheered it on, at any given historical moment you care to choose. Sometimes it's deemed newsworthy. Sometimes it's not.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Oh, I don't know.

Stories like this do make the news today. The Duke University Lacrosse team comes to mind. So does Elizabeth Smart's abduction. It's a bit quirky what will make the national headlines and what won't. Balloon boy is headline news, go figure.

I didn't say "same old same old". I said "The more things change, the more they stay the same."

Senseless violence is not new or unique to our times. Blacks have been lynched, Jews have been pogrom'ed, and Christians have been fed to the Lions, all while the assembled masses cheered it on, at any given historical moment you care to choose. Sometimes it's deemed newsworthy. Sometimes it's not.

Exactly!

[Gemmie 142]

Perhaps many of the people responding to this thread are too young to have heard of Kitty Genovese.

I know about Kitty Genovese and studied the case once on the topic of bystander behaviour. And it's not the first time people have stood by and watched such a brutal crime or even took part in it either. Studies have shown that people are more likely to have this passive response in different circumstances, for example, when the person is intoxicated or even perceived to have a "lower status" (in one case, a homeless man). It's been found that the bigger the crowd, the more likely you are to just be a bystander, and especially when violence is involved.

So you don't think it's any worse than it was years ago? The murder rate of young people is similar to decades ago?

I have no idea, that's why I gave many reasons that *could* be behind an apparent increase in crime. It might be the portrayal in the media, or it could be that there is actually higher levels of murder going on. I was just giving an example (with domestic abuse) of how things can be happening for decades without people realising it.

Another example is to look at numbers of homosexuals; you could say that there are more of them, but is it just because we live in a more open society now? Same with mental illness. Everyone knows someone who has or has had a mental illness, I think it's 1 in 3 Americans that will suffer from depression at some point. Has depression really increased or is it just that we're more aware of it? I don't claim to know the rates of teen murder, and I don't know if the number really *has* gone up.

As I said, it seems to be worse than years ago, but that could be for other reasons.

[spookyturtle 9,465]

Everyone has an opinion on this, I base mine on what goes on in my surrounding area. I see a few murders in suburban areas that haven't had one for over 10 years. I see local police departments reporting an increase in assaults. Granted, most don't involve guns or knives, but the numbers are up across the board. And if anything, there are areas where people are afraid to report crime due to fear of retaliation. Years ago the sound of gunshots was unheard of in Brockton, now it is a common occurence. And I doubt that this is the only community where this is happening. We're not talking about a couple of kids having a fist fight once in a while.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Well you can look at NYC for a contrast - Manhattan is as safe today as it was in the 1960s (I posted a link earlier), crime went up across the board in the 1970's and only started to come down in the late 80s.

I don't doubt that patterns change over time, but to say that things are just getting worse across the country seems to be to buying what the doom merchants are selling.

[britty 1]

Find the monsters and lock them up for good. How many times do we have to see these heinous crimes committed before the law takes it seriously and provides a fitting punishment. I don't care how old any of the scum concerned are, castration and hard labor for the rest of their miserable lives should be the punishment. Actually, termination is also ok.

[scandal 951]

Everyone has an opinion on this, I base mine on what goes on in my surrounding area. I see a few murders in suburban areas that haven't had one for over 10 years. I see local police departments reporting an increase in assaults. Granted, most don't involve guns or knives, but the numbers are up across the board. And if anything, there are areas where people are afraid to report crime due to fear of retaliation. Years ago the sound of gunshots was unheard of in Brockton, now it is a common occurence. And I doubt that this is the only community where this is happening. We're not talking about a couple of kids having a fist fight once in a while.

Spooky, here's some data from the FBI Uniform Crime Reporting Program.

The data here is from two sources at the FBI website:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2008/index.html

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/Cius_97/95CRIME/95crime4.pdf

Data is recorded nationally, and I cite here the number of offenders arrested for homicide in each of 3 years (2008,1995,1986) across the country. The data differentiates under 18 from 18 and over. I note that "Arrested" doesn't mean convicted. It also doesn't differentiate regionally or by urban/rural areas. This is just a rough idea of what's been going on with murder over the last 2 decades in the United States.

Under 18

2008 951

1995 2383

1986 1255

18 and over

2008 9,924

1995 13,001

1986 13,042

In short, fewer murderers are being arrested now than were one and two decades ago. Fewer kids (<18) are being arrested for murder today than ten or twenty years ago.

Here also are the numbers of homicides nationally each year, showing a clear downwards trend from over 20K murders in the early 90s to about 16K in the past decade. (Note that in 2001 this data does NOT include the victims of 9/11 which would have bumped that year's stat up by about 3000).

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2008/data/table_01.html

1989 21,500

1990 23,438

1991 24,703

1992 23,760

1993 24,526

1994 23,326

1995 21,606

1996 19,645

1997 18,208

1998 16,974

1999 15,522

2000 15,586

2001 16,037

2002 16,229

2003 16,528

2004 16,148

2005 16,740

2006 17,030

2007 16,929

2008 16,272

Those are some facts. Make of them what you will.

[spookyturtle 9,465]

Those figures truly surprise me. I only know what goes on in my area, but I sure don't see less crime. But facts are facts.

[HAL 9000 96]

I think what we might be seeing is an intensification of murders by fewer individuals. Hence the heinousness of many of the crimes. Less people to arrest, more absolute numbers in victims.

In terms of this particular topic it could apply... the severity of these savage acts may be more intense, but the overall rate according to previous statistics may actually be the same.

Food for thought in that... people have always been f*cking crazy, although society as a whole has obviously become more and more desensitized to these things, IMO. Just looking at OT I can remember plenty of azzholes laughing at human misery like it was a real joke.

[justashooter 430]

Well you can look at NYC for a contrast - Manhattan is as safe today as it was in the 1960s (I posted a link earlier), crime went up across the board in the 1970's and only started to come down in the late 80s.

I don't doubt that patterns change over time, but to say that things are just getting worse across the country seems to be to buying what the doom merchants are selling.

you can thank roe vs wade for that reduction, and increased illegal immigration for the recent increase.