Greenspan Says Illegal Immigration Aids U.S. Economy

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Personally, I believe in equilibriums, and letting things seek their own level. Entropy is reduced, and effort is minimized. So, open the borders. Let them all in, and eventually, that problem would solve itself. Populations will move around until everybody is satisfied.

wow! I'm surprised by that. Honestly. I guess I still haven't figured out everyone's positions here.

I think you mean entropy will increase: I.e. you have two separated populations (Mexico/US) which is a more ordered (lower entropy) state. Once you mix them, you've decreased order, ergo increased entropy. But no matter, I quibble on the thermodynamic analogy. Your economic point is taken.

I tend to concur, my two caveats being (1) that if you simply opened the gates all at once you'd hear this tremendous sucking sound all along the border as the stratified pressure zones are combined. To protect communities and social services (schools, health care, transportation grids, etc.) such a change should be brought on gradually and not all at once. And (2) there is the matter of national security - a nation must stand vigilant and not simply permit anyone to enter sight unseen.

My mistake. It has been years since physics. I meant "enthalpy". I was using the analogy of a chemical equation, and the reduction in potential energy.

If you reduce enthalpy, you are dumping heat into the environment. Is that kinda like global warming?

Don't belabor the analogy any more than it already is.

Or, are you trying to say, amnesty will kill the polar bears?

Now, I have to go back and reread my physics books.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Mister_Bill

[Ban Hammer 14,297]

Or, are you trying to say, amnesty will kill the polar bears?

save the polar bears!

[scandal 951]

Or, are you trying to say, amnesty will kill the polar bears?

save the polar bears!

Kill polar bears?

Now that's just plain wrong

[Heracles 417]

This isn't the same Greenspan who turned a blind eye to the current financial mess.

How does one of millions of Americans living in poverty benefit from cheap labor? because every single first world country would like to learn about this one. Put simply, they don't. Illegal aliens drive down salaries and allow small businesses, or anyone else who works under the table, to profit from this cheap labor pool. It effectively puts a spanner in the works of supply and demand, ensuring supply always outnumbers demand. Consequently suppressing wages for middle class Americans too. So in the end who benefits from this, the minority of people in this country who control the majority of the wealth.

White collar workers don't care about illegal immigration as it does not affect them directly. Yet these same folk cry murder when we export their jobs to foreign countries.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Constellation

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Greenspan never had to worry about an illegal taking HIS job.

[Heracles 417]

Greenspan never had to worry about an illegal taking HIS job.

Exactly.

[Heracles 417]

If anyone for illegal aliens can legitimately tell me how millions more low skilled workers will benefit the 50,000,000+ Americans already living dirt poor and in poverty, I'll personally donate $10,000 to an illegal alien advocacy group.

uscandual I am all ears.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Constellation

[scandal 951]

If anyone for illegal aliens can legitimately tell me how millions more low skilled workers will benefit the 50,000,000+ Americans already living dirt poor and in poverty, I'll personally donate $10,000 to an illegal alien advocacy group.

uscandual I am all ears.

I feel so honored to be specially chosen

Well, you can rest assured your $10K is perfectly safe.

Not that I would believe for an instant you would pay anything under any circumstance, mind you. I could cite 100 journal articles and bring world renowned economists to your living room to personally make a pitch and I still don't believe you'd ever part with a penny.

No, the main reason your money is safe is that the subject is contentious, and serious scholars on all sides of the debate can point to data to buttress their claims. That's why I kept challenging you to show some data, because I know that there is good data on both sides of the issue. I'd love to engage in a rational discussion,but all you seem to want to do is wave your arms at the issues.

Anyway, since you ask for a citation, here's something we all might find useful. It's an NPR piece from a few years ago that both you and I can point at excitedly and say "SEE! I was right!" Then we can both be smug and go on to arm wrestle another day. How's that?

Since the article goes back and forth between the economic pros & cons of illegal immigration, I've color coded as follows: purple for the stuff that backs your side (illegal immigration depresses wages for poor and low skilled Americans) and blue for my side (overall illegal immigration is about a wash, or perhaps a small net plus for the US economy and most Americans). The neutral stuff (or what I perceive as neutral) I've left in black.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5312900

Q&A: Illegal Immigrants and the U.S. Economy

by Adam Davidson

--SIDEBAR--

By the Numbers

• By increasing the labor supply between 1980 and 2000, immigration reduced the average annual earnings of U.S.-born men by an estimated $1,700, or roughly 4 percent.

• Among those born in the United States who did not graduate from high school -- roughly the poorest one-tenth of the work force -- the estimated impact was even larger, reducing wages by 7.4 percent.

• The negative effect on U.S.-born black and Hispanic workers is significantly larger than on whites, because a much larger share of minorities are in direct competition with immigrants.

• The reduction in earnings occurs regardless of whether the immigrants are legal or illegal, permanent or temporary. It is the presence of additional workers that reduces wages, not their legal status.

Source: Jorge Borgas, Kennedy School of Government at Harvard

NPR.org, March 30, 2006 ·

Nearly 12 million illegal immigrants are estimated to be living in the United States. The vast majority work in low-skill, low-wage jobs. More than half work in construction, manufacturing or leisure and hospitality.

Advocates on both sides of the immigration debate predict dramatic change if illegal immigration is drastically curtailed. Supporters of a crackdown argue that the U.S. economy would benefit if illegal immigrants were to leave, because U.S. employers would be forced to raise wages to attract American workers. Critics of this approach say the loss of illegal immigrants would stall the U.S. economy, saying undocumented workers do many jobs few native-born Americans will do. NPR business correspondent Adam Davidson explores the issue.

Q: What is the impact of illegal immigration on wages in the United States?

Well, for an individual, it depends on where you are, what kind of work you do and whether you have skills that illegal immigrants don't. But overall, illegal immigrants don't have a big impact on U.S. wage rates. The most respected recent studies show that most Americans would notice little difference in their paychecks if illegal immigrants suddenly disappeared from the United States. That's because most Americans don't directly compete with illegal immigrants for jobs.

There is one group of Americans that would benefit from a dramatic cut in illegal immigration: high-school dropouts. Most economists agree that the wages of low-skill high-school dropouts are suppressed by somewhere between 3 percent and 8 percent because of competition from immigrants, both legal and illegal. Economists speculate that for the average high-school dropout, that would mean about a $25 a week raise if there were no job competition from immigrants.

Illegal immigrants seem to have very little impact on unemployment rates. Undocumented workers certainly do take jobs that would otherwise go to legal workers. But undocumented workers also create demand that leads to new jobs. They buy food and cars and cell phones, they get haircuts and go to restaurants. On average, there is close to no net impact on the unemployment rate.

Q: But what about wages in cities like Los Angeles and Chicago, where there are many illegal immigrants? And what about wages in industries that use many undocumented workers?

More than a third of illegal immigrants live in just three cities: New York, Los Angeles and Chicago. But even in these places, economists believe there is minimal impact on wages. That's because many Americans from other parts of the country choose not to move to areas with large numbers of immigrants, because they want to avoid competing for jobs.

Even in industries with high concentrations of illegal workers -- such as construction, restaurants and some parts of agriculture -- the impact isn't as great as many people think. If there weren't illegal immigrants working in construction in places like Chicago and Miami, then demand for legal workers would go up, which would mean wages would rise. But very quickly, legal workers from other parts of the country would move to those cities, and wages would go back down. The net impact on wages would be relatively modest.

Illegal immigrants do often take some of the country's least attractive jobs, such as in meat packing and agriculture. If there were no undocumented workers available for those jobs, employers would likely invest in new technology, replacing workers with automation.

Q: How do illegal immigrants affect the overall U.S. economy?

Illegal immigration has both negative and positive impacts on different parts of the economy. As noted above, wages for low-skilled workers go down. But that means the rest of America benefits by paying lower prices for things like restaurant meals, agricultural produce and construction. Another negative impact is on government expenditures. Since undocumented workers generally don't pay income taxes but do use schools and other government services, they are seen as a drain on government spending.

There are places in the United States where illegal immigration has big effects (both positive and negative). But economists generally believe that when averaged over the whole economy, the effect is a small net positive. Harvard's George Borjas says the average American's wealth is increased by less than 1 percent because of illegal immigration.

The economic impact of illegal immigration is far smaller than other trends in the economy, such as the increasing use of automation in manufacturing or the growth in global trade. Those two factors have a much bigger impact on wages, prices and the health of the U.S. economy.

[Heracles 417]

Not that I would believe for an instant you would pay anything under any circumstance, mind you. I could cite 100 journal articles and bring world renowned economists to your living room to personally make a pitch and I still don't believe you'd ever part with a penny.

No, the main reason your money is safe is that the subject is contentious, and serious scholars on all sides of the debate can point to data to buttress their claims. That's why I kept challenging you to show some data, because I know that there is good data on both sides of the issue. I'd love to engage in a rational discussion,but all you seem to want to do is wave your arms at the issues.

Anyway, since you ask for a citation, here's something we all might find useful. It's an NPR piece from a few years ago that both you and I can point at excitedly and say "SEE! I was right!" Then we can both be smug and go on to arm wrestle another day. How's that?

While the article was an interesting read, it does not reflect the overall picture. But anyway, when I am on a forum I would like to know what people here are thinking about a particular issue, rather than turn it into some sort of college level essay.

I've lived here long enough now to see precisely how the system works. Yes, for white collar workers, illegal aliens have little impact on them. Many white collar workers live in gated communities and crime free neighborhoods. I live and work in the two highest paying counties in United States of America. I work with people who have little to no idea about the world outside their lives, their community. They are just those places you don't drive to, in your $80K car. For anyone to sit here and suggest that up to 20,000,000 illegal aliens have little to no impact on America's 50,000,000 living in poverty is preposterous; and I mean dirt poor. I have travelled to a lot places in the US and there are some places that are actually worse than the slums of a third world country. Whereas, I challenge you to find me even any equivalent areas in Australia, my country of birth. Google has the entire country covered with streetview. Free for all to see.

What do I have to go by is the power of observation, which is part of my background in engineering and business. Sure you can say that is simply empirical evidence therefore not some sort of academically reviewed 'Journal Article', but is a great place to start. It's not that hard to compare the two nations, as well as other nations I have lived in, and see a pattern; notice the differences that is. Your article talks about high school dropouts, being affected the most, which is true, but what percentage of people in the United States are actually college educated? I am willing to bet that a large portion of Americans don't have a BA. So should we just say oh well, your problem not mine and basically throw them under the bus in the name of assisting illegal aliens?

I'll give the article some credit though. In a scholarly way, it tries to justify the exploitation of others in the name Americans "paying lower prices for things like restaurant meals, agricultural produce and construction" (Borgas, 2006). I guess that is the difference between America to countries like Australia. Both conservatives, like myself, and lefties believe in a fair go. A fair go which means that everyone gets a fair chance in life. People are paid a reasonable wage. Construction (blue collar) workers, for example, can easily earn up to $150K per annum; a wage simply unheard of here. My cousin who works for BHP earns $250K in the mining sector.

Therefore the question of, who would notice a difference if the 12 or 20 or even 1 million illegal aliens? is quite easy to answer. That is, the millions of Americans that are now living on the streets or now without a job, due to the financial crisis. Not to mention that the article fails to address the simple supply and demand issue I mentioned earlier. I would rather see Americas 50 million (and growing) poor get to "buy food and cars and cell phones, they get haircuts and go to restaurants" (Borgas, 2006). That is, rather than the status quo where they are left to live in squalor and rot in ghettos. That is a bloody disgrace and something that would not be tolerated in many civilised first world countries.

The best advice I have for white collar workers or anyone else who is pro-illegal and not suffering a mental condition, they need to travel both around America and to other civilized first world countries. If you are too busy or afraid, turn on the TV and have a look at some of these crime ridden areas and what people are going through due to the lack of hope and job prospects. Then tell me or 50+ million living in poverty, living in thousands of ghettos, how they have benefited from illegal immigration.

There is a reason why America now looks the way it is. Why ghettos and gangs have thrived rather than been eliminated. Maybe one of these super-intelligent scholars you mention needs to have a look into other places. It's as easy as a few Google clicks. You can start with my home city Melbourne, AUS. Plenty of places to look at, like: Melbourne, Sydney, Paris, London etc.

What do they say again, a picture says a thousand words.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Constellation

[Heracles 417]

I was pondering the issue today and had a good laugh at the notion that 20, 30 or eventually 50 million illegal immigrants will not affect Americans. Not only is it insane, actually, it's moronic. Even when we factor in skilled blue collar workers and how harder it is for illegal aliens to take their jobs, other displaced Americans will have to compete with millions more Americans entering the skilled blue collar work force. That is, as a result of these same people not being able to work in positions now occupied by the millions of illegal immigrants who entered the country of the last 15 years. What do you think this sudden increase in blue collar workers will do for wages? Economics 101, drive them down. Rich win, por loose. Minorities lose even more.

Eventually more and more people will also go to college. Though, I can see that colleges and those in the industry have a good deal in this country. They are basically able to charge whatever they like and limit the supply, to their advantage. Effectively manipulating the market to keep their wages high while also ensuring their jobs are in demand, due to limited supply of course.

Now what I would like to propose, and effectively return the favor to white collar workers, is a change in the H1 visa quota. I propose an immediate increase to 3,000,000 a year, from the current 65,000. Yes, regardless of the current economy. As well as the removal of any rules or requirements that would prevent these international professionals from applying for work. Then after a number of years I challenge any scholar to come tell me that an additional 12 million or so white collar workers has not drastically suppressed wages and lowered living standards.

I have said this before and I will say it again, either the rest of the developed world is wrong (and stupid) to have so many tough rules on illegal aliens and immigration, as a whole, or the pro-illegal alien mob here has got it right. That doesn't need citation, just common sense and a bit of research. Human development index, quality of life, nominal GDP per capita. etc etc etc

Edited May 5, 2009 by Constellation

[justashooter 430]

If the US can export illegals... good on them.

now we just have to find a country that wants them, cause we sure don't

[peejay 327]

If the US can export illegals... good on them.

now we just have to find a country that wants them, cause we sure don't

In many cases their own countries don't want them either. That is why their own countries knowingly and actively illegally dump them on the USA to deal with. Can you say M-e-x-i-c-o?

[EstebanTrabajos 7]

OMG! I cannot believe it!

Greenspan as in Alan Greenspan, the former Chairman of the Federal Reserve,

As in Alan Greenspan, who earned a BS, MA, and PhD in ECONOMICS!!

I CAN NOT BELIEVE IT!

He knows more than Bill O'Reilly,

BA in History

MA in journalism

and M in Public ADMINISTRATION

or Rush Limbaugh

with...hmmmm

pretty much a pitiful High School diploma and a college drop out who according to his own mother "flunked everything"

UNBELIEVABLE!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOT!

Edited May 5, 2009 by TävôLuDô

[Nagishkaw 510]

Greenspan is an idiot.

[EstebanTrabajos 7]

Greenspan is an idiot.

The dude has a PhD, idiot is not necessarily correlated to a PhD