Revoke Greencard???

[Paul and Melanie 0]

nyc - maybe it doesn't seem like a whole lot, but "only" $1,200 per month would be a HUGE amount to me!

Gosh, do I agree with you!!!

[rejane 1]

You should go to the interview...

Good luck

[meauxna 15]

Has anyone heard of somone getting an AOS interview AFTER it's been approved?

As a matter of fact, you make #2 that I've heard of. A couple of recent discussions came to mind as I was reading your posts.

This may or may not apply to you.

adjustment of status interview after recieving the actual green card

Folinskyinla made an interesting comment about this thread elsewhere, indicating that no one really knows what will happen with these no-interview cases:

Does this mean what I think it does?

Finally, the comment you've made about the support issue is *really* interesting. How did you get put onto the Stump case and your comments here?

Also, according to recent case law, I am contractually obligated to maintain her at 125% of the poverty level. (Pay attention sponsors!) This is brand new case law stating that regardless of the merits of the marriage, an affidavit of support is a contract to basically pay the alien monthly support. see Stump v Stump. The alien can sue for breach of contract AND recover attorneys fees - because it's a blatant breach!

Check out this VERY interesting thread:

Permanent Resident Divorces Sponsor, Demands I864 Support Payments

I'm interested in your thoughts on the above and the info you got about Stump v Stump (have to go look that one up later today).

[tmma 467]

[--nyc

Well now I can see your case a little more clear and I definitely understand you better.

It's hard for me, I'm probably one of the most naive people you know, who still believes that there are only good people in the world.

Anyway, I wouldn't worry about that 125% poverty line. There's no way she would want to live off of the support, which would be only about $1,200 a month. You can't really survive off of it!!! plus I doubt she would go through the hassle and take any legal action against anything that minor.In my opinion she will leave you alone

but if she has a conditional greencard, I am sure she will not have it renewed (even by herself) if you really want it.

I don't know about you, but $1200 a month is a whole load of "minor stuff" to me.

It's just my opinion, but if someone is prepared to go to the trouble of coming here, marrying and then taking off- I wouldn't think them incapable of anything!

Either way-it's HIS $1200 a month!

To the OP- go to the interview-get this sorted out-USCIS/INS will absolutly take this case and get it sorted.

M

Edited May 10, 2006 by tmma

[meauxna 15]

To the OP- go to the interview-get this sorted out-USCIS/INS will absolutly take this case and get it sorted.

That is incredibly optimistic!

[greencardgamesucker 0]

Meauxna: Thank you so much for your help!

I read the expat thread and my thought are these:

It is my understanding that the waiving the AOS interview is a new course of action taken to relieve the backlog. I consider it an undue taking by the govt in that it destroys one of the safeguards (whether we want it or not) put in place to protect the USC and ultimately the US. Notably, during the interim period (between applying for AOS and issuance of GC), the sponsor can withdrawal the affidavit of support at anytime, which abandons the case. Again, while the majority of couples prefer expedited processing, it really is a valuable safeguard to ferret out the wolves! Besides, there are really no rights afforded by expediting other than the luxury of certainty. The alien can still travel (AP) and work (EAD).

That being said, since this is a new process, it is possible that (1) an AOS interview can be reinstated upon reasonable doubt as to the merits of the case, e.g. my letters; (2) an interview is going to be a regular process for those marriage cases that were approved without an interview (we'll see more and more of these situations reported here); or (3) one hand of USCIS isn't communicating with the other hand and the whole thing is a mistake. However, I think 3 is less likely now that you've informed me that others are being called in after the fact.

I came upon the Stump case while researching my options...I'm an attorney. That side of me is fascinated by all of this - while the human side is petrified! The Stump case is remarkably similar to mine except that my wife left within 2 months as opposed to the 13 months of Stump. (page 4-5)

Stump v Stump:

http://www.ilw.com/immigdaily/cases/2005,1107-stump.pdf

Edited May 10, 2006 by greencardgamesucker

[meauxna 15]

Meauxna: Thank you so much for your help!

I read the expat thread and my thought are these:

It is my understanding that the waiving the AOS interview is a new course of action taken to relieve the backlog. I consider it an undue taking by the govt in that it destroys one of the safeguards (whether we want it or not) put in place to protect the USC and ultimately the US. Notably, during the interim period (between applying for AOS and issuance of GC), the sponsor can withdrawal the affidavit of support at anytime, which abandons the case. Again, while the majority of couples prefer expedited processing, it really is a valuable safeguard to ferret out the wolves! Besides, there are really no rights afforded by expediting other than the luxury of certainty. The alien can still travel (AP) and work (EAD).

That being said, since this is a new process, it is possible that (1) an AOS interview can be reinstated upon reasonable doubt as to the merits of the case, e.g. my letters; (2) an interview is going to be a regular process for those marriage cases that were approved without an interview (we'll see more and more of these situations reported here); or (3) one hand of USCIS isn't communicating with the other hand and the whole thing is a mistake. However, I think 3 is less likely now that you've informed me that others are being called in after the fact.

I came upon the Stump case while researching my options...I'm an attorney. That side of me is fascinated by all of this - while the human side is petrified! The Stump case is remarkably similar to mine except that my wife left within 2 months as opposed to the 13 months of Stump. (page 4-5)

Stump v Stump:

http://www.ilw.com/immigdaily/cases/2005,1107-stump.pdf

oooh, that will be good reading for later on! Since you're an attorney (don't knwo what flavor) I am now especially interested in your thoughts on wendy's thread at BE. You can see that everyone thought that couple are nuts and the board lawyer agreed. Note too that the 125% would be for a one person household (the $1200 people were mentioning). There has been a conspicuous absense of cases involving support payments via the I-864 (like, who'd go for that piddly amount when you could potentially get alimony? I see the difference in your case btw---she would not be eligible for any alimony, right?).

I actually suspect that your #1 reason is closest to the truth. The other case posted at BE smells a little funny and notice that he stated it has been one year since he recieved his card. We may never know the outcome of that case.

But yours was called up very quickly! How long have these transfer cases been going on? At least a year according to that thread (I haven't really tracked them here). I would think that IF all/most of those cases were going to get a delayed interview, we would've heard of it here, and, many of the couples who got no-interview approvals were RFEd for their most up to date and complete info (to close the case?).

It's an interesting thing you say about safeguards and timelines and the protection of the USC. I did my case a little differently and to an outsider, it could look like an invitation to fraud. I married a man I met on vacation, in an exotic location, within months of meeting. Our immigraiton case took 33 days to complete; I mean petition to green card. Happily, we've just celebrated our 4th anniversay and I don't think I could get rid of him now. Who'd look after the garden!?!

[greencardgamesucker 0]

You are right - my issue with Stump is that the alien can leave the day after filing the affidavit and be in the clear - if the case is expedited. No family court would ever provide alimony for a day marriage. However, Stump paves the way for support.

As far as I can tell, AOS cases have been subject to expedited processing ("rubber stamping") since Fall 2005.

I didn't read the background of wendy's thread, but I do know this. From Stump (which is only persuasive law at this point/not binding), the court makes it clear that they are intent on protecting the government in that they don't want to risk an alien becoming a public ward. The case is full of holes, as indicated by this analysis:

http://www.ilw.com/articles/2006,0110-wheeler.shtm

A court is only to look within the 4 corners of a contract and not read anything into it. While the Stump court desperately tried to accomplish this, the fact is that the affidavit is poorly written leaving many issues unaddressed. I believe the aff is fatally flawed when it comes to enforcement. Most significantly, the wording (as debated on BE) says nothing about payments but only refers to "reimbursement" - and only reimbursement to the government. Secondly, the aff is between the govt and the sponsor. 3rd parties typically don't have standing to sue in order to enforce a contract they aren't party to.

I should note that when I gave my ex the GC, I was able to obtain a few things including a notarized property settlement agreement where I attempted to insulate myself from enforcement of the affidavit. However, very few things in the law are black and white. Even that agreement may have holes... It's still clearly in my best interest to see the case denied.

Congrats on your anniversary. Pretty funny re the garden!

Edited May 10, 2006 by greencardgamesucker

[kvngwynth 0]

Ok, now this is exactly what truly bugs me. Because of these types of girls (or guys in other cases) that just want to misuse people to immigrate the real honest legal ones have to go through the hassle of the long process and so on. Not nice, not fair at all.

I understand completely your sadness, anger and your frustration. I am the immigrant, my hubby is the USC. Everybody has problems at one point or another in their marriage but when a marriage ends it already hurts more than enough without all the problems added onto it by the immigration process.

What I suggest:

1. IMHO I would have never given her green card. I would have gone to the local USCIS office (infopass) and presented the case there before giving her the green card. If she wants the green card let her get it from there or I will give it to her IF AND ONLY IF the officer at the USCIS office TELLS ME TO DO SO. But I would also record the name (full name of the officer telling me to do so) and present that in my case that I would sent to the USCIS reporting the whole case, also stating time and date and including a copy of Infopass appointment. BUT since you already have given her her GC still make an Infopass appointment and ask them what you should and could do about this. Present all you have so far and all you have done about it so far. Again, record name of officer etc. etc.

2. Hire a PI. Let the PI do the dirty work for you. You relax. The more you wind yourself up she will have won, rejoicing about your pain and sorrow. Yes, it isn't cheap, but a divorce or a case ten years down the road will never be cheap either, let's just get it over with as soon as possible. Talk to a couple of PI-s and see which one is the most reasonably priced but still is very professional and friendly about it. Why a PI? Because they can easily go places you can't at times you can't. Plus it will become hard evidence supporting your whole case instead of letting it stay "hearsay" as it now basically is. I know it is hard for you. And most of all... you yourself stay clean, no going to other women, doing drugs or becoming an alcoholic, never abuse her no matter what. Do not give her any reason she could use against you in court of law. Again I am so sorry, I know this is hard for you, but be very strong for now otherwise she will "win".

3. Do I take your side 100%? No, I am sorry because I do not know you well yet and because every story has its two sides. BUT I BELIEVE YOU because this has happened too many times to a lot of my USC friends. And I knew both sides of the stories sadly pretty well.

4. Divorce her as soon as possible... AFTER YOU HAVE ALL THE PROOF FROM THE PI. She will get into a lot of problems going through the interview if you also have papers stating you filed for a divorce already based on whatever you can find out. This is why I am not talking about it all as a fraud rather more how to handle a domestic dispute. If you have all the evidence then and only then your marriage and her intentions will prove itself to be a fraud anyways. Simple, right?

5. Go to the interview. Not because you have to be afraid of threats, never be afraid those. How could she force you to go anywhere? Blackmail? Again, if you don't do anything wrong she cannot blackmail you in any way. Get a gun if needed and if you are comfortable with it. Only idiots would still come at you if you have a gun to defend yourself. Do not become trigger happy 'tho... Be very responsible. NEVER THREATHEN HER or anyone else WITH IT EITHER. Don't feel bad about having to protect yourself if you feel the need to. Stay with friends and family if needed. She might not hurt you herself, but she might misuse another guy and his friends to hurt you. Go to the interview to present your case to the fullest. It will be a wonder if the immigration then doesn't immediately deport her altogether.

6. Be strong. Do not go soft on her. Flirting, crying, begging, kissing feet... whatever she might try to woe you... Don't fall for it. Don't sleep with her is another good point. She could and would misuse that against you. Worst to worst if she sleeps with the other guy and with you too she can say it is your child. Then what? DNA tests? Abortion? More trouble than it is worth.

7. Last but not least... BE VERY SURE ABOUT ALL THIS. Be prepared, be cautious. Be wise, stay as calm about all this as possible. Don't become paranoid. Again, I know and understand how it must hurt. If there is any doubt whatsoever in your mind then don't do anything drastic untill you have all the facts straight and you can be sure about it. Love is blind people say, in a way it is true, so open your eyes. Stay yourself, be friendly but strict and blunt.

Am I being radical/ weird/ paranoid? No. I don't care what others might think. But I have been through hell on earth in the past in a lot of situations and conditions that others don't even want to have nightmares about. So I learned from my own experiences and from others to be well prepared. Mean? No. Just blunt.

If you are truly honest about all this... believe and you will find another girl somewhere somehow, someday that will love you for you not for America. I came for my husband, not for America so much that it is my hubby that is "forcing" me to do the the whole immigration process. I filed the AOS almost 180 days after my K1 expired. I did not even want to get married as soon as I came, we waited untill the last two weeks... WHY? Because I want him to be sure. I want me to be sure. A marriage is hopefully untill I die and beyond so I would never want him or myself to feel forced to get married or stay married just because of fear of being deported. I just comply because it is the only way to be able to stay with him and if it makes him happy why not, right? I love him more than my own life. Am I truly this light about all this? YUP. Ask my hubby and my friends

Sincerely,

Gwyneth

[diadromous mermaid 36]

That being said, since this is a new process, it is possible that (1) an AOS interview can be reinstated upon reasonable doubt as to the merits of the case, e.g. my letters;

I don't see why recission would not be possible at the adjustment of status phase, when it occurs at the removal of conditions phase, albeit in the rare instance. Bear in mind that when removing conditions the alien and petitioner have already overcome the requisite hurdle, once, of demonstrating to the staisfaction fo the AO that the marriage is bona fide, whereas at the AOS stage there still exists a presumption that the bona fides have yet to be demonstrated. I think if you pursue your allegation of fraud diligently, and make sure that the local office is clued up on the goings on, you might be pleasantly surprised that they will do a follow up.

To those who recommended that the OP attend the AOS interview: While he is aware of the interview requirement, he didn't state if the letter was addressed to the alien or both him and his spouse. In the event that the letter was only addressed to his alien wife, being an officer of the Court, it would be a potential hazard for him to openly admit that he had opened the letter, I would think. <Must put on thinking cap as to how you could get around that>. If it were my situation, I'd copy the interview letter, place it in it's original envelope, with an accompanying letter indicating that you inadvertently opened it and that the alien is no longer living with you and hasn't for "x" number of months. I'd mail it to the local office (possibly with a notation on the outside of the envelope attn: Fraud Unit), and send a carbon copy of the correspondence to the district office. This would present one more cause for the local office to check into this if you alien wife did not comply with the AR-11 requirements.

[john_and_marlene 162]

I'd be interested in your thoughts regarding filing a civil/criminal fraud case against her if she tried to collect support based on the I-864 where your damages are equal to whatever she is awarded. Has anyone tried this?

Or ...

http://www.ilw.com/articles/2006,0110-wheeler.shtm

The sponsored alien never intended to enter into a lasting marital relationship, but was merely using the sponsor to gain immigrant status. If the sponsor can show that the alien committed fraud, this is a complete defense to any future liability.

[diadromous mermaid 36]

You are right - my issue with Stump is that the alien can leave the day after filing the affidavit and be in the clear - if the case is expedited. No family court would ever provide alimony for a day marriage. However, Stump paves the way for support.

As far as I can tell, AOS cases have been subject to expedited processing ("rubber stamping") since Fall 2005.

I didn't read the background of wendy's thread, but I do know this. From Stump (which is only persuasive law at this point/not binding), the court makes it clear that they are intent on protecting the government in that they don't want to risk an alien becoming a public ward. The case is full of holes, as indicated by this analysis:

http://www.ilw.com/articles/2006,0110-wheeler.shtm

A court is only to look within the 4 corners of a contract and not read anything into it. While the Stump court desperately tried to accomplish this, the fact is that the affidavit is poorly written leaving many issues unaddressed. I believe the aff is fatally flawed when it comes to enforcement. Most significantly, the wording (as debated on BE) says nothing about payments but only refers to "reimbursement" - and only reimbursement to the government. Secondly, the aff is between the govt and the sponsor. 3rd parties typically don't have standing to sue in order to enforce a contract they aren't party to.

I should note that when I gave my ex the GC, I was able to obtain a few things including a notarized property settlement agreement where I attempted to insulate myself from enforcement of the affidavit. However, very few things in the law are black and white. Even that agreement may have holes... It's still clearly in my best interest to see the case denied.

Congrats on your anniversary. Pretty funny re the garden!

The Federal Court awarded Plaintiff a summary judgment and moved simply to determine damages. Presumably, with a summary disposition in favour of the Plaintiff except as to damages, the Federal Court found that the US citizen spouse could not establish a meritorious defense, due to the existance of the Affidavit of Support?

[greencardgamesucker 0]

I think the USC's attorney was unprepared because he either did not expect the court to adhere strictly to contract law or is simply not a good attorney. The latter is probably most accurate given the nature of a lawsuit.

You are correct in that the court simply looked into whether the contract was valid. Since it was and the defense forwarded no contract defenses (void for fraudulent enducement, i.e. marriage fraud), it appears that the court had no other choice other than turning to damages.

Again, this is a radically new interpretation of the affidavit. We will, very soon, see the courts illuminate some of the grey area that we've been discussing. My case would definitely flush out a lot of these issues. However, I do not want to see my name in the case books yet!

john and marlene: it would be a defense to enforcement: fraudulent enducement. You would only use this in the case you were sued. Yes, I believe it is an extemely viable defense!

Re the envelope - your idea is the best one yet. To answer, it was addressed only to her. And yes, I did open it inadvertently. I believe a copy was likely sent to an immigration attorney she might have retained...although I am not certain.

I still am not sure whether I should let her know about the interview...leaning towards no. If she doesn't attend, I believe the case is abandoned. However, I think it can be revived upon a showing of good faith - something that'd be hard to prove if she neglected to change her address. Then again, USIC could've overlooked the change notice, which seems to happen regularly. Many possibilities.

Edited May 10, 2006 by greencardgamesucker

[tmma 467]

To the OP- go to the interview-get this sorted out-USCIS/INS will absolutly take this case and get it sorted.

That is incredibly optimistic!

It's optimism thats getting me through my visa process

M

Edited May 10, 2006 by tmma

[diadromous mermaid 36]

I think the USC's attorney was unprepared because he either did not expect the court to adhere strictly to contract law or is simply not a good attorney. The latter is probably most accurate given the nature of a lawsuit.

You are correct in that the court simply looked into whether the contract was valid. Since it was and the defense forwarded no contract defenses (void for fraudulent enducement, i.e. marriage fraud), it appears that the court had no other choice other than turning to damages.

Again, this is a radically new interpretation of the affidavit. We will, very soon, see the courts illuminate some of the grey area that we've been discussing. My case would definitely flush out a lot of these issues. However, I do not want to see my name in the case books yet!

john and marlene: it would be a defense to enforcement: fraudulent enducement. You would only use this in the case you were sued. Yes, I believe it is an extemely viable defense!

Re the envelope - your idea is the best one yet. To answer, it was addressed only to her. And yes, I did open it inadvertently. I believe a copy was likely sent to an immigration attorney she might have retained...although I am not certain.

I still am not sure whether I should let her know about the interview...leaning towards no. If she doesn't attend, I believe the case is abandoned. However, I think it can be revived upon a showing of good faith - something that'd be hard to prove if she neglected to change her address. Then again, USIC could've overlooked the change notice, which seems to happen regularly. Many possibilities.

Well, once again, were I in your predicament, I'd want the case to be won or lost on its merits rather than on purely ministerial or adminstrative elements (as she could argue that she never received notice, or it was intercepted and possibly cajole a local AO to reschedule). Therefore, I'd make appropriate copies, mail the envelope over the the local district office et al, and then with "some" but not too much prior notice (sufficent that she can't argue she didn't know, but not enough notice that she can wriggle out of it), alert your estranged wife in passing that you thought there was a notice that arrived but you mailed it back to the issuing agency. (Certainly, not incorrect in the instant case) I rather expect that she'll be inclined to try to postpone the interview, but even if she doesn't and she appears, there's something to be said for a US citizen at an adjustment interview proclaiming that the marriage is not and was not bona fide. Somehow, I suspect that might carry you closer to your goal than a "no show". I would be there armed with whatever information you wish for the office to see and curious to see her expression too.

Edited May 10, 2006 by diadromous mermaid