For MUSLIMS only - hadith, Quran, living the Sunnah, Islamic lifestyle discussion, ask Q's, give advice, stick to the topic!

[Nasturtium 500]

Sigh, here we go again with the interpretations of non-N8tive people including but not limited to anthropologists and historians who viewed SOME tribes isolation of women during their monthly cycle to mean that these women were unclean . The truth is , the woman's power is stronger during their periods so it may interfere with the powers for hunting and/ or medicine ceremonies. So, isolation protected these other powers.

That's interesting, and I didn't know why they isolated them, just knew that they did (historical fiction books, you learn a lot!) Thanks for the explanation. So what "powers" are they talking about? If the women were stronger, wouldn't that have helped the hunting? Maybe not.

Oh! and every tribe, like Nagishkaw said, was different in their beliefs and systems of behavior... SOME (not all, and this belief is also not limited to NAs, Europeans, etc also heald similar if not identical beliefs depending on location) believed that the state of a woman influenced the corresponding state of that which was around her. So a pregnant woman was good for fertility. A menstruating woman would influence things to the negative in that you wouldn't want her out planting fields, etc as she would bring a power of barrenness with her. This was only SOME beliefs.

There is also the corresponding (sometimes, not always, sometimes this is on its own completely) moon phases beliefs for crops and planting... not planting on various moon phases, planting on others in order to gain greater fertility. Many women's cycles are somewhat tied to or completely tied to the moon and so sometimes this was also accounted for in the belief as a matter of re-enforcement of it (sort of like "see? moon is on X phase and now my wife is menstruating (barren) and that proves it all!").

[Nagishkaw 510]

Sigh, here we go again with the interpretations of non-N8tive people including but not limited to anthropologists and historians who viewed SOME tribes isolation of women during their monthly cycle to mean that these women were unclean . The truth is , the woman's power is stronger during their periods so it may interfere with the powers for hunting and/ or medicine ceremonies. So, isolation protected these other powers.

That's interesting, and I didn't know why they isolated them, just knew that they did (historical fiction books, you learn a lot!) Thanks for the explanation. So what "powers" are they talking about? If the women were stronger, wouldn't that have helped the hunting? Maybe not.

Oh! and every tribe, like Nagishkaw said, was different in their beliefs and systems of behavior... SOME (not all, and this belief is also not limited to NAs, Europeans, etc also heald similar if not identical beliefs depending on location) believed that the state of a woman influenced the corresponding state of that which was around her. So a pregnant woman was good for fertility. A menstruating woman would influence things to the negative in that you wouldn't want her out planting fields, etc as she would bring a power of barrenness with her. This was only SOME beliefs.

There is also the corresponding (sometimes, not always, sometimes this is on its own completely) moon phases beliefs for crops and planting... not planting on various moon phases, planting on others in order to gain greater fertility. Many women's cycles are somewhat tied to or completely tied to the moon and so sometimes this was also accounted for in the belief as a matter of re-enforcement of it (sort of like "see? moon is on X phase and now my wife is menstruating (barren) and that proves it all!").

We call having a period, " On the moon " or just " Mooning " .

[~Jackie~ 30]

I call it 'being on vacation.'....

[Chica Yeyé 41]

Sigh, here we go again with the interpretations of non-N8tive people including but not limited to anthropologists and historians who viewed SOME tribes isolation of women during their monthly cycle to mean that these women were unclean . The truth is , the woman's power is stronger during their periods so it may interfere with the powers for hunting and/ or medicine ceremonies. So, isolation protected these other powers.

Thanks Nagishaw for clarifying this for our Muslim friends . Indeed, the power of women in their moon is strong and can interfere, but it is not isolation, it is protection.

I love the idea of this thread, I can learn more about Islam -- perhaps we could start a thread on Native Spirituality?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

The fiqh rules regarding prayer during menses are much more complex in fiqh than often commonly known, and involve determining the consistancy, texture and color of the woman's issue, as well as the length of time she has been bleeding. The historical record shows that they were not barred from the mosque. With the help of modern "technology", there are women who pray during menses, and believe that to not do so is more against the commandment than to do so, for hardship varies by individual, not by gender.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Sigh, here we go again with the interpretations of non-N8tive people including but not limited to anthropologists and historians who viewed SOME tribes isolation of women during their monthly cycle to mean that these women were unclean . The truth is , the woman's power is stronger during their periods so it may interfere with the powers for hunting and/ or medicine ceremonies. So, isolation protected these other powers.

This belief is actually more common among native americans than not. I did the pow wow curcuit for many years with my half native/half Arab relatives and was exposed to the concept of the power they held during that time of the month.

[Nasturtium 500]

Sigh, here we go again with the interpretations of non-N8tive people including but not limited to anthropologists and historians who viewed SOME tribes isolation of women during their monthly cycle to mean that these women were unclean . The truth is , the woman's power is stronger during their periods so it may interfere with the powers for hunting and/ or medicine ceremonies. So, isolation protected these other powers.

This belief is actually more common among native americans than not. I did the pow wow curcuit for many years with my half native/half Arab relatives and was exposed to the concept of the power they held during that time of the month.

There is a distinct loss of diversity amongst native peoples now as far as belief and culture, as well as in language and practices. There is a distinct uniformity across many tribes at this point due to loss of knowledge through death/willful assimilation and then an attempt to regain it and not having anywhere to start.. so going to what was more popular in current culture. For whatever reason, plains culture for the northern plains really caught on for the public in the US, and many tribes mow immitate this as their own culture-- even though it had little or nothing to do with their original cultures. Also, this would have been enhanced by forced migrations and regrouping of tribes.

ETA: Pow-wow circuit would be a perfect example of this.

Edited May 29, 2008 by julianna

[Sofiyya 1,687]

There is a distinct loss of diversity amongst native peoples now as far as belief and culture, as well as in language and practices. There is a distinct uniformity across many tribes at this point due to loss of knowledge through death/willful assimilation and then an attempt to regain it and not having anywhere to start.. so going to what was more popular in current culture. For whatever reason, plains culture for the northern plains really caught on for the public in the US, and many tribes mow immitate this as their own culture-- even though it had little or nothing to do with their original cultures. Also, this would have been enhanced by forced migrations and regrouping of tribes.

ETA: Pow-wow circuit would be a perfect example of this.

That is absolutely true, but it wasn't always like that, even in my lifetime. Having been involved with Native communities on three continents for more than 40 years, I can't help but feel a bit of sadness and even resentment about this development. I've even seen plains culture spread into Alaska where the traditions are still relatively strong. Looking at photos from events I've organized and attended, from east coast to west, there is a uniformity (war bonnets are very popular) that is embarrassing, if you know anything about the cultural diversity that once existed, and not that long ago.

East coast tribes were especially open to taking on the affectations of other tribes in an effort not to be classified as "Negro", losing status, and being segregated from whites. One of the tribes married into the family is the Pamunkey, a Virginia group with a reservation in King William County that split into several factions based on how racist they were inclined to be toward blacks.

An attorney I assisted with their application to be recognized by the federal government (they are state recognized) was especially puzzled by how bent over backwards their bylaws had gone to appeal to racism and sexism in an attempt to stay viable. However, others married across race freely. In fact, Natives marry outside of their groups than any other North Americans.

Edited May 29, 2008 by Virtual wife

[Nasturtium 500]

There is a distinct loss of diversity amongst native peoples now as far as belief and culture, as well as in language and practices. There is a distinct uniformity across many tribes at this point due to loss of knowledge through death/willful assimilation and then an attempt to regain it and not having anywhere to start.. so going to what was more popular in current culture. For whatever reason, plains culture for the northern plains really caught on for the public in the US, and many tribes mow immitate this as their own culture-- even though it had little or nothing to do with their original cultures. Also, this would have been enhanced by forced migrations and regrouping of tribes.

ETA: Pow-wow circuit would be a perfect example of this.

That is absolutely true, but it wasn't always like that, even in my lifetime. Having been involved with Native communities on three continents for more than 40 years, I can't help but feel a bit of sadness and even resentment about this development. I've even seen plains culture spread into Alaska where the traditions are still relatively strong. Looking at photos from events I've organized and attended, from east coast to west, there is a uniformity (war bonnets are very popular) that is embarrassing, if you know anything about the cultural diversity that once existed, and not that long ago.

East coast tribes were especially open to taking on the affectations of other tribes in an effort not to be classified as "Negro", losing status, and being segregated from whites. One of the tribes married into the family is the Pamunkey, a Virginia group with a reservation in King William County that split into several factions based on how racist they were inclined to be toward blacks.

An attorney I assisted with their application to be recognized by the federal government (they are state recognized) was especially puzzled by how bent over backwards their bylaws had gone to appeal to racism and sexism in an attempt to stay viable. However, others married across race freely. In fact, Natives marry outside of their groups than any other North Americans.

All it takes to realize how bad it has gotten is to mention Cahokia and see how many people really even realize what that is.. or ask if they realize moccasins were invented by "white" people on the wild-west show circuits of the 1800s, or if they knew Cherokee is not a tribe but a nation, and that they lived in wooden house structures... etc.

WHich brings me to another aside as well, that I have never heard of a single Jewish saying that houses, horses, and women are bad luck. If that were true, why would Jews live in houses for thousands of years? Or have horses? Just a thought.

[April and Mohamed 0]

There is a distinct loss of diversity amongst native peoples now as far as belief and culture, as well as in language and practices. There is a distinct uniformity across many tribes at this point due to loss of knowledge through death/willful assimilation and then an attempt to regain it and not having anywhere to start.. so going to what was more popular in current culture. For whatever reason, plains culture for the northern plains really caught on for the public in the US, and many tribes mow immitate this as their own culture-- even though it had little or nothing to do with their original cultures. Also, this would have been enhanced by forced migrations and regrouping of tribes.

ETA: Pow-wow circuit would be a perfect example of this.

That is absolutely true, but it wasn't always like that, even in my lifetime. Having been involved with Native communities on three continents for more than 40 years, I can't help but feel a bit of sadness and even resentment about this development. I've even seen plains culture spread into Alaska where the traditions are still relatively strong. Looking at photos from events I've organized and attended, from east coast to west, there is a uniformity (war bonnets are very popular) that is embarrassing, if you know anything about the cultural diversity that once existed, and not that long ago.

East coast tribes were especially open to taking on the affectations of other tribes in an effort not to be classified as "Negro", losing status, and being segregated from whites. One of the tribes married into the family is the Pamunkey, a Virginia group with a reservation in King William County that split into several factions based on how racist they were inclined to be toward blacks.

An attorney I assisted with their application to be recognized by the federal government (they are state recognized) was especially puzzled by how bent over backwards their bylaws had gone to appeal to racism and sexism in an attempt to stay viable. However, others married across race freely. In fact, Natives marry outside of their groups than any other North Americans.

All it takes to realize how bad it has gotten is to mention Cahokia and see how many people really even realize what that is.. or ask if they realize moccasins were invented by "white" people on the wild-west show circuits of the 1800s, or if they knew Cherokee is not a tribe but a nation, and that they lived in wooden house structures... etc.

WHich brings me to another aside as well, that I have never heard of a single Jewish saying that houses, horses, and women are bad luck. If that were true, why would Jews live in houses for thousands of years? Or have horses? Just a thought.

Isn't Cahokia an ancient huge city from like the late 1200s? I wanna say it's somewhere in or around Oklahoma...it was in an historical fiction book I read. That's interesting about the Natives being racist, it's like the Latinos always fighting the blacks who are always fighting the Asians and everyone's fighting each other...if they all joined forces then they could really take over. I have no idea about the Jewish people saying that but I think it was something that used to go around back in the day, but it's probably died out. Maybe someone purposely misquoted them too, it happens.

Virtual wife, can you elaborate on the women who do pray during their period?

[Ban Hammer 12,836]

I call it 'being on vacation.'....

i call it

hummer week

[doodlebugg 10]

I read that is it not permisable for a woman on her period to enter the mosque. Because she is un pure!

says who? from muslim:

Book 003, Number 0588:

'A'isha reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) ordered me that I should get him the mat from the mosque. I said: I am menstruating. He (the Holy Prophet) said: Do get me that, for menstruation is not in your hand.

Book 003, Number 0589:

Abu Huraira reported: While the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) was in the mosque, he said: O 'A'isha, get me that garment. She said: I am menstruating. Upon this he remarked: Your menstruation is not in your hand, and she, therefore, got him that.

i always took not praying at that time as just relaxing and getting a little bit more rest, as opposed to a "purity" issue, but that's just me.

This is from the website Islamtoday.com, Its a good site!

`Â’ishah relates that the Prophet (peace be upon him said: “I do not permit a woman in her menses or a person in a state of major ritual impurity into the mosque.” [sunan Abî Dâwûd, Sunan Ibn Mâjah, Sunan al-Bayhaqî, and Sahîh Ibn Khuzaymah]

There is a context for this hadîth. The Prophet (peace be upon him) observed that some of the homes of his Companions opened up onto the mosque. He said: “Reorient these homes so that they do not face the mosque.” He then entered the mosques without doing anything, hoping that a concession would be revealed to him. Later, he went out to them and said: “Reorient these homes so that they do not face the mosque, for I do not permit a woman in her menses or a person in a state of major ritual impurity into the mosque.”

FYI Islamtoday is a very very strict site. I belong to a woman's forum there and although the woman are nothing but lovely and helpful they are very very strict in all things Islamic, so it's not suprising that you would have found that on that site.

I call it 'being on vacation.'....

i call it

hummer week

As one of my favorite comedians says, they don't close down the carnival just 'cause the ferris wheel's broken.

[nana_356 0]

Book 003, Number 0588:

'A'isha reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) ordered me that I should get him the mat from the mosque. I said: I am menstruating. He (the Holy Prophet) said: Do get me that, for menstruation is not in your hand.

Book 003, Number 0589:

Abu Huraira reported: While the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) was in the mosque, he said: O 'A'isha, get me that garment. She said: I am menstruating. Upon this he remarked: Your menstruation is not in your hand, and she, therefore, got him that.

i always took not praying at that time as just relaxing and getting a little bit more rest, as opposed to a "purity" issue, but that's just me.

This is from the website Islamtoday.com, Its a good site!

`Â’ishah relates that the Prophet (peace be upon him said: “I do not permit a woman in her menses or a person in a state of major ritual impurity into the mosque.†[sunan Abî Dâwûd, Sunan Ibn Mâjah, Sunan al-Bayhaqî, and Sahîh Ibn Khuzaymah]

There is a context for this hadîth. The Prophet (peace be upon him) observed that some of the homes of his Companions opened up onto the mosque. He said: “Reorient these homes so that they do not face the mosque.†He then entered the mosques without doing anything, hoping that a concession would be revealed to him. Later, he went out to them and said: “Reorient these homes so that they do not face the mosque, for I do not permit a woman in her menses or a person in a state of major ritual impurity into the mosque.â€

FYI Islamtoday is a very very strict site. I belong to a woman's forum there and although the woman are nothing but lovely and helpful they are very very strict in all things Islamic, so it's not suprising that you would have found that on that site.

I agree, but the hadith does exist! So it is abviously how prophet muhammad (pbuh) stated it should be!

Edited May 29, 2008 by nana_356

[April and Mohamed 0]

I agree, but the hadith does exist! So it is abviously how prophet muhammad (pbuh) stated it should be!

So how do we distinguish between these two hadith that seem to contradict one another? How is the chain of evidence on each one? Could it be possible there's a weak source for one of them?

[Nasturtium 500]

Isn't Cahokia an ancient huge city from like the late 1200s? I wanna say it's somewhere in or around Oklahoma...it was in an historical fiction book I read. That's interesting about the Natives being racist, it's like the Latinos always fighting the blacks who are always fighting the Asians and everyone's fighting each other...if they all joined forces then they could really take over. I have no idea about the Jewish people saying that but I think it was something that used to go around back in the day, but it's probably died out. Maybe someone purposely misquoted them too, it happens.

Virtual wife, can you elaborate on the women who do pray during their period?

Cahokia was the central city during the mississippian culture time period ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippian_culture) which ended in the 1500s, although Cahokia itself collapsed in the 1400s. It had over 1 million people living in it at the time of it's peak, and it is just above St. Louis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cahokia

It contains the largest earthworks in North America. it also contains the largest pallisade wall, which had trees which were a minimum of 3ft in diamter, many up to 6+ft. Knowing they didn't have metal tools, cranes, or anything of the like, one should be impressed.