A Love of America Turned Ugly [Photo Essay]

[MrConservative 0]

My perception is that it is no worse than it ever was.

But the study says patriotism is higher (more rabid)?

More rabid? What is wrong with patriotism? You make is sound like it's a dirty word or something.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Chris Morris is the name of an infamous satirist in the UK. I'm sure its a different guy - but still... has me wondering.

[Dan J 277]

My perception is that it is no worse than it ever was.

But the study says patriotism is higher (more rabid)?

More rabid? What is wrong with patriotism? You make is sound like it's a dirty word or something.

The word patriotism has been sort of hijacked to describe actions that are nationalistic. Its not a dirty word in itself, its just been misused.

[almaty 19]

i agree...you do not have to nationalistic...to have patriotism...

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

My perception is that it is no worse than it ever was.

But the study says patriotism is higher (more rabid)?

More rabid? What is wrong with patriotism? You make is sound like it's a dirty word or something.

When people call others who disagree with the government on areas of say, foreign policy a traitor - that isn't patriotism.

Patriotism can be a positive thing, it is also "the virtue of the vicious" according to Oscar Wilde.

[Ban Hammer 14,652]

The word patriotism has been sort of hijacked to describe actions that are nationalistic. Its not a dirty word in itself, its just been misused.

it's also been hijacked and turned into a derogatory term........

[one...two...tree 2,762]

My perception is that it is no worse than it ever was.

But the study says patriotism is higher (more rabid)?

More rabid? What is wrong with patriotism? You make is sound like it's a dirty word or something.

When people call others who disagree with the government on areas of say, foreign policy a traitor - that isn't patriotism.

Patriotism can be a positive thing, it is also "the virtue of the vicious" according to Oscar Wilde.

Exactly. It undermines the very liberties that true patriotism champions.

[almaty 19]

total agreement brother stevie...i wasin the army..and was all male members in my family history except one..do i believe in America..right or wrong..f##k no...

[Pooky 3,930]

I really wish there could be more balanced postings about politics on VJ. It only proves how divided our country is though. Does it always have to be so extreme left vs extreme right all the time? And making each other's candidates or who someone likes look like fools constantly? How about they all look like fools most of the time. It's getting ridiculous. I know that's off topic from this posting but it has to do with it. Let's all pick the most extreme and divisive info we can to fight each other with to make to other side or people who don't share our political views look stupid or "blinded".

Why do we feel the need to belittle ppl's opinions all the time. Why can't ppl debate without belittling? I guess that's impossible in politics. I get tired of getting involved in political threads because it's always the same story and the same ppl bickering. I can't wait until the freaking elections are over! Long way to go though.

the polarization does very little aside from getting the *other* side arguing back and the *same* side doing high fives. It's been few and far between that people walk away from these 'discussions' thinking, "that was an interesting point, I got something out of that discussion".

You're both right and I apologize for posting something that is very divisive. However, in the context of other posts lately, I thought it was in the same line. I would like to think that a White House photographer would offer an interesting perspective into the kind of patriotism that he sees at the WH.

Perhaps you could be part of the solution to the divisiveness rather than adding to it

Then actions need to be taken against the other side. One can only be BEAT DOWN so many posts.

I am not here to referee between the partisan sides. I am merely asking for everyone to chill a bit.

We've had one post from a liberal (excuse me if you are not, Steven) and tons from the *other* side. I very much take offense at singling out this ONE POST.

Dev come on - you suggested actions should be taken on the *other* side. I responded and asked for everyone to chill. I am not singling you out. Like I said - I am not refereeing sides.

Not singling me out, but this post is singled out. What happened in that offensive terrorist thread when those who objected were laughed at? Even when the OP said it was to STIR THE POT? Absolutely nothing.

I'm not asking you to referee, but to uphold the TOS.

Balance is a precarious thing. Some within this thread have called for a balanced view of the original post. Some have called for a balanced treatment of many (political) posts. Some have called for a balanced approach to the people posting their viewpoints. And none of the posters calling for balance are themselves balanced.

I've watched the "left" and the "right" carry out their post-it battle to see who can put the most posts in that favour their viewpoint and I'd call it fairly even. And when a post appears , I'll look through the replies to see the "usual suspects" doing what they usually do. Occasionally, I'll be surprised by an unexpected viewpoint, but not very often. Nothing much changes.

All the cries of "singling out" this and that are rather like crying wolf. Protests flow in virtually every politically-related posts that appears here. Righteous indignation and liberal outrage (or righteous outrage and liberal indignation) rear their head daily, with digs at and by each side of the argument. And the opinion that this post is different to that post often creeps in, a plea to the Mods to make a special case of a post because "it's not like other posts, because ........."

The ugliest thing about America is the political divide. How can a nation spend 4 years fighting an election? That's what it seems like to an outsider like me. No sooner had GWB been re-elected than the 2008 Presidential Race began. I was bored after 6 weeks (Maybe because I'm used to elections that are over and done with in 6 weeks). However, I doubt that either side is going to slow down in their assault on the post count so all I would ask is this ..........

Can you all leave the personal stuff at the door and just argue the politics? I rarely see a discussion of candidates' policies but see a large number of generic party attacks, along with a few character assassinations. That's fine and nothing I can say will change that. But Quit baiting the people here and talk about the issues. You'll be surprised how the temperature cools in the discussions.

P

Oh, and for anyone who calls me unbalanced for posting in this thread, you're right. I'm unbalanced. Or rather, this thread was on the front page and I couldn't be bothered to look for the other thread and post it twice, 'cos I'm lazy.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Well said, Pooky. I used to moderate a discussion group and I know that if people go into an argument with the hopes of 'winning' they've already lost. Anyone here who thinks that one particular party is any less scrupulous than the other is kidding themselves. There's some mighty fine Americans from both of the major parties and no two Americans think exactly alike. Diversity in thought, culture, religion is, IMO, what makes America, America. That's the America that I love.

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

This is easier than typing! A transluscent living shade

Edited October 12, 2007 by CarolsMarc

[Peikko 1,575]

But the study says patriotism is higher (more rabid)?

The study asks Americans how patriotic they feel they are (the actual question seems to have been is patriotism 'in' which I found utterly bizarre but there you go, polls huh?) , rather a different notion to how outsiders perceive American patriotism which I thought I had made perfectly clear.

I am not sure how one quantifies patriotism either. Needless to say, no matter what I think about the policies of the present incumbents, I wouldn't accuse any of them of the irrational patriotism that this photographer seems to be implying.

[Jasman0717 9]

That was cool and even more cool because my sound worked so was able to hear it

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

This is easier than typing! A transluscent living shade

We all know what patriotism is! To be even mentioned in a thread such as this is a joke. Maybe our patriotism should be guided by the ones that hate us, the most. Please note the critisism in the clip and the vacancy of an answer to the problem.

Blaming our own, for the sake of power is foolish. The promises of the past will visit us again, in disappointment. Hope is never to be relied upon,but you are.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

We all know what patriotism is! To be even mentioned in a thread such as this is a joke. Maybe our patriotism should be guided by the ones that hate us, the most. Please note the critisism in the clip and the vacancy of an answer to the problem.

Blaming our own, for the sake of power is foolish. The promises of the past will visit us again, in disappointment. Hope is never to be relied upon,but you are.

Marc, do you believe that it's possible for someone to be blinded by love? If so, then logic would have it that someone can also be blinded by nationalism and to point that out doesn't equate to being against the concept itself (love or nationalism).

......

There are two visions of America. One precedes our founding fathers and finds its roots in the harshness of our puritan past. It is very suspicious of freedom, uncomfortable with diversity, hostile to science, unfriendly to reason, contemptuous of personal autonomy. It sees America as a religious nation. It views patriotism as allegiance to God. It secretly adores coercion and conformity. Despite our constitution, despite the legacy of the Enlightenment, it appeals to millions of Americans and threatens our freedom.

The other vision finds its roots in the spirit of our founding revolution and in the leaders of this nation who embraced the age of reason. It loves freedom, encourages diversity, embraces science and affirms the dignity and rights of every individual. It sees America as a moral nation, neither completely religious nor completely secular. It defines patriotism as love of country and of the people who make it strong. It defends all citizens against unjust coercion and irrational conformity.

This second vision is our vision. It is the vision of a free society. We must be bold enough to proclaim it and strong enough to defend it against all its enemies.

~ Rabbi Sherwin Wine