Medical Cannabis Users In Ohio Learn They’re Ineligible To Own Firearms

[-Trinity- 513]

7 minutes ago, Boiler said:

Sorry to hear about your taste buds.

 

They work perfectly fine, not ruining them with beer ;-)

Edited December 8, 2017 by Beachlover

[smilesammich 10,727]

7 minutes ago, Nature Boy Flair said:

I tend to agree for weed. I have mixed feelings about Meth and so forth, although I cant say what we are doing know seems to help. Meth is becoming a large problem around here, as I am sure it is in your neck of the woods. 

our problem right now is heroin. it's very bad. and the community argues about if we should just let those overdosing die or give them narcan and save their lives. the thinking is that they chose to do heroin and they should deal with those consequences. but if you look at drug addiction as a disease and want to stop the disease from spreading you have to actually treat it, not just put people in jail and give them court fines and probation with drug tests, which they inevitably fail and end up right back at square one. if all the money is going into incarceration and most addicts can't afford means of actual rehabilitation the problem is only going to balloon. same thing with meth. i don't think there are any healthy people that want to be addicted to meth. get meth addicts healthy, they'll stop doing meth. attacking things from the supply or possession angle is short sighted. imo.

[bcking 3,157]

24 minutes ago, smilesammich said:

i think it's sad that we can't treat addiction as a medical condition. of course, if someone commits a crime while under the influence you've got to deal with the crime. but possession should not be criminal.

We will continue to always treat it as a medical condition. We have no obligation (and very little interest) in treating any patient with psychological or physical symptoms of drug abuse like a criminal. Even if it just comes up in conversation during treatment for something unrelated, we don't treat them like criminals. A doctor that does otherwise is breaking the ethical principals that are the foundation of medicine. 

 

Also on the topic of cannabis withdrawal -

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Nabiximols+as+an+agonist+replacement+therapy+during+cannabis+withdrawal%3A+a+randomized+clinical+trial.

 

An RCT of an alternative cannabinoid receptor agonist as a form of treatment for cannabis withdrawal. Patients treated with the agonist remained in treatment longer, and the NNT was quite low (2.84). Their follow-up was quite brief though (28 days).

Edited December 8, 2017 by bcking

[bcking 3,157]

7 minutes ago, smilesammich said:

our problem right now is heroin. it's very bad. and the community argues about if we should just let those overdosing die or give them narcan and save their lives. the thinking is that they chose to do heroin and they should deal with those consequences. but if you look at drug addiction as a disease and want to stop the disease from spreading you have to actually treat it, not just put people in jail and give them court fines and probation with drug tests, which they inevitably fail and end up right back at square one. if all the money is going into incarceration and most addicts can't afford means of actual rehabilitation the problem is only going to balloon. same thing with meth. i don't think there are any healthy people that want to be addicted to meth. get meth addicts healthy, they'll stop doing meth. attacking things from the supply or possession angle is short sighted. imo.

Who exactly argues for just "letting them die"? It would violate the principles of Justice, Beneficence, and Respect (not one of the 4 core principals, but also discussed in medical ethics).

Edited December 8, 2017 by bcking

[smilesammich 10,727]

3 minutes ago, bcking said:

Who exactly argues for just "letting them die"? It would violate the principles of Justice, Beneficence, and Respect (not one of the 4 core principals, but also discussed in medical ethics).

i was talking about people that live in my area. there are facebook groups here that post what comes across the police scanner and every time there is an overdose (sometimes up to ten a day, when a bad batch comes through town) and there are locals who comment that narcan is rewarding junkies. i don't think the medical community as a whole views it that way at all. though, anecdotally, i do know a first responder (who also has a heroin addicted mother) who believes they should be left to die and a couple guys in law enforcement who have hardened to the epidemic and feel this way as well. they do what they are supposed to do, but personally this is how they feel junkies should be treated.

[bcking 3,157]

6 minutes ago, smilesammich said:

i was talking about people that live in my area. there are facebook groups here that post what comes across the police scanner and every time there is an overdose (sometimes up to ten a day, when a bad batch comes through town) and there are locals who comment that narcan is rewarding junkies. i don't think the medical community as a whole views it that way at all. though, anecdotally, i do know a first responder (who also has a heroin addicted mother) who believes they should be left to die and a couple guys in law enforcement who have hardened to the epidemic and feel this way as well. they do what they are supposed to do, but personally this is how they feel junkies should be treated.

It is upsetting that some medical professionals feel that way, and that the lay public have such a significant lack of understanding that they promote those views. I haven't worked in an adult ER for quite awhile now, and fortunately in pediatric ER's that sentiment is extremely rare, though likely in part due to the patient population. I imagine the lay public as well are a little more forgiving when it comes to a 16 year old with heroin abuse, than a 35 year old with heroin abuse.

 

Whether it's opioids, alcohol or marijuana, addiction and dependency isn't just "mind over matter" and should be treated seriously.

Edited December 8, 2017 by bcking

[Boiler 47,470]

2 minutes ago, smilesammich said:

i was talking about people that live in my area. there are facebook groups here that post what comes across the police scanner and every time there is an overdose (sometimes up to ten a day, when a bad batch comes through town) and there are locals who comment that narcan is rewarding junkies. i don't think the medical community as a whole views it that way at all. though, anecdotally, i do know a first responder (who also has a heroin addicted mother) who believes they should be left to die and a couple guys in law enforcement who have hardened to the epidemic and feel this way as well. they do what they are supposed to do, but personally this is how they feel junkies should be treated.

Fair point

 

Certainly would not be a priority.

[smilesammich 10,727]

2 minutes ago, Boiler said:

Fair point

 

Certainly would not be a priority.

i would imagine it would be difficult to go to an overdose call at the same address multiple times and not eventually end up feeling that some people are a lost cause. but in my mind, these people get narcan, they go to the hospital, they get charged with possession and then released back to continue their habit. there's no mandatory rehab or treatment of the addiction in anyway shape or form. only criminal charges.

[Boiler 47,470]

7 minutes ago, smilesammich said:

i would imagine it would be difficult to go to an overdose call at the same address multiple times and not eventually end up feeling that some people are a lost cause. but in my mind, these people get narcan, they go to the hospital, they get charged with possession and then released back to continue their habit. there's no mandatory rehab or treatment of the addiction in anyway shape or form. only criminal charges.

Presumably somebody is calling these things in?

[smilesammich 10,727]

Just now, Boiler said:

Presumably somebody is calling these things in?

yes, and some times those people end up with possession charges as well. but overdoses happen in public restrooms, in family homes and in work places, walmart parking lots. addicts can be functioning and hiding their addiction and overdose. 

similarly this is why charging dealers in overdose deaths doesn't work the way folks expect it to (scaring people out of dealing the drug), because normally the "dealer" found to have provided the heroin is nothing more than a user themselves and "dealing" only to maintain their own addiction.

[Dashinka 25,854]

1 hour ago, Boiler said:

After reading that I need a beer.

 

Anybody want to join me?

In about 2 hours I will be partaking in a tasty IPA.

 

[bcking 3,157]

26 minutes ago, smilesammich said:

i would imagine it would be difficult to go to an overdose call at the same address multiple times and not eventually end up feeling that some people are a lost cause. but in my mind, these people get narcan, they go to the hospital, they get charged with possession and then released back to continue their habit. there's no mandatory rehab or treatment of the addiction in anyway shape or form. only criminal charges.

What state are you in? Unfortunately not all states have Good Samaritan laws (including the one I'm currently living in). It's unfortunate. They are intended to protect those that make the call, to avoid people from being "afraid" to report an overdose.

 

Once they arrive at the hospital, we have no role in getting them in trouble. If the cops weren't already involved, we don't involve them. 

Edited December 8, 2017 by bcking

[The Nature Boy 7,659]

57 minutes ago, bcking said:

You could argue that the person sleeping with someone for ten bucks because of their chemical addiction to heroin is also "mind over matter". Opioid addiction and withdrawal won't kill you if you don't get your fix. You may feel very sick, but you won't die. So could technically just "toughen up" and get through it.

 

As I've already said - Yes alcohol is the "odd man out". Alcohol withdrawal can kill you. 

If you don't have an institutional account that gives you access, you likely won't be able to get more than the abstract (Just tried to access it outside of our institutional library website and it asks me to purchase it). As I said PM me if you are serious about it. 

People have and do die during Heroin withdrawal from acute side effects, so your statement is not completely factual 

[smilesammich 10,727]

10 minutes ago, bcking said:

What state are you in? Unfortunately not all states have Good Samaritan laws (including the one I'm currently living in). It's unfortunate.

virginia. but i don't think our good samaritan laws stops the cops from arresting people for possession. i don't know.

 

eta: here it is:

https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title18.2/chapter7/section18.2-251.03/

Edited December 8, 2017 by smilesammich

[bcking 3,157]

1 minute ago, Nature Boy Flair said:

People have and do die during Heroin withdrawal from acute side effects, so your statement is not completely factual 

I think in one of my earlier posts I added a word like "generally". In subsequent posts I guess I have left it out.

 

Yes it happens. It is fairly rare and is a consequence of dehydration and hypernatremia. I apologize for leaving out that caveat in subsequent posts.

 

Some people with cannabis withdrawal exhibiting vomiting and could potentially die from similar symptoms. Though I don't think it has ever been reported (to my knowledge).