Pelosi: Restricting DOD Funds From Being Used For Gender Transition Treatments Hurts National Security

[IAMX 3,055]

Just now, bcking said:

Which doesn't actually answer my question.

 

If you want to refer to the quote in bold, then are you implying that what he really means is military service is a privilege and he doesn't think transgender people deserve that privilege? 

 

Someone being transgender has nothing to do with their ability to "win wars and defeat the enemy". 

 

You, or him, need to explain how exactly policies supporting transgender participation in the military hurts military readiness. How is it connected? Is there data that proves that transgender people are less capable?

There's no hidden messages for you to decipher.. having the military pay for gender transition treatments hurts military readiness. If one wants this done, do it on their own time and dime.

[Cyberfx1024 7,980]

7 minutes ago, bcking said:

 

I'm looking for an explanation for how exactly policies supporting transgender participation in the military hurts military readiness. How is it connected? Is there data that proves that transgender people are less capable?

I can give you a couple good examples: 

 

1.Female identifying as male: There are numerous studies that have shown that a vast majority of females still can not lift, hike/ruck, or carry someone as much as a male. So if I have a male(female) in my squad then he would be hindrance to the squad as a whole due to his/her shortcomings. When you are in combat environment carrying that load of equipment, ammo, and rations. You do not want to have to worry about someone who can not cut the mustard so to speak.

 

2. Male identifying as Female: I can see several issues with this in the military. It could cause alot of problems because when you are deployed or even at home station out in the field there are limited facilities to wash/shower and sleep at. So yes men and women are constantly in close quarters and it could cause problems. 

[bcking 3,157]

13 minutes ago, IAMX said:

There's no hidden messages for you to decipher.. having the military pay for gender transition treatments hurts military readiness. If one wants this done, do it on their own time and dime.

Paying for gender transition surgery is not the same thing as having "pro-transgender policies". You could have pro-transgender policies (Supporting their presence in the military) and still make an argument that their gender reassignment surgery shouldn't be covered. I mentioned that in my very first post. Funding gender transition surgery is one particular pro-transgender policy, but it doesn't encompass the entire spectrum.

 

The quote doesn't actually refer to specific kinds of policies, so we do have to interpret somewhat. You are interpreting it to be very narrow and only refer to paying for the treatment. My general impression of this person is that he doesn't believe transgender policies of any type have a place in the military because that somehow "hurts" the military. I'm wondering if there is any evidence of that.

[Mr&Mrs G. 903]

5 hours ago, cyberfx1024 said:

This is so true and I have seen it happen first hand. 

 

 

How do you like New Bern? I used to be stationed down at Camp Lejeune, but I am originally from Greensboro. 

I love New Bern can't wait to move over permanently. My wife was born in Atlanta but her family moved about due to the work her dad did for the government. They eventually settled in Leesburg VA but after early retirement they moved to New Bern for lower taxes. He does voluntary work now managing transport so veterans can make it to medical appointments in Raleigh and I have done some small jobs for them when I go over on holidays. 

 

 

[bcking 3,157]

4 minutes ago, cyberfx1024 said:

I can give you a couple good examples: 

 

1.Female identifying as male: There are numerous studies that have shown that a vast majority of females still can not lift, hike/ruck, or carry someone as much as a male. So if I have a male(female) in my squad then he would be hindrance to the squad as a whole due to his/her shortcomings. When you are in combat environment carrying that load of equipment, ammo, and rations. You do not want to have to worry about someone who can not cut the mustard so to speak.

 

2. Male identifying as Female: I can see several issues with this in the military. It could cause alot of problems because when you are deployed or even at home station out in the field there are limited facilities to wash/shower and sleep at. So yes men and women are constantly in close quarters and it could cause problems. 

Good examples. Since I don't have any personal experience, I have a question for your first example.

 

For example #1: If a man joins the army and is unable to carry his equipment/keep up in training are they excluded from that kind of duty? Even among men strength varies widely. If a man can't cut it, I would imagine they would be moved to a different area. Is that not the case? It seems like the question of strength could be considered on a case by case basis regardless of gender. My wife's female friend is a power lifter. She is certainly more "combat ready" than I am.

 

As for example #2, you are probably right it would cause some "issues" regarding bunking/bathroom habits etc... That is true about transgender policies in every area of society. I believe we could adapt on this one, but I can see it would be a challenge.

Edited July 14, 2017 by bcking

[Cyberfx1024 7,980]

12 minutes ago, bcking said:

Good examples. Since I don't have any personal experience, I have a question for your first example.

 

For example #1: If a man joins the army and is unable to carry his equipment/keep up in training are they excluded from that kind of duty? Even among men strength varies widely. If a man can't cut it, I would imagine they would be moved to a different area. Is that not the case? It seems like the question of strength could be considered on a case by case basis regardless of gender. My wife's female friend is a power lifter. She is certainly more "combat ready" than I am.

 

As for example #2, you are probably right it would cause some "issues" regarding bunking/bathroom habits etc... That is true about transgender policies in every area of society. I believe we could adapt on this one, but I can see it would be a challenge.

All of this is noted and acted on in the schooling. There are skill tests in every schooling, if you can't pass those tests then you can't move forward in school and get sent to a earlier class. If you still can't pass the tests then you are reclassed in to the dreaded "open contract" basically admin or cook. The military today won't just stick a peewee 90 pound guy to load a 80lb artillery shell, but everybody is forced to hike in the infantry a standard amount of equipment totaling over 80-100lbs. But like I said the "vast majority" of women can not do a fair number of stuff that men can do. But I have seen some Women Marines who are stronger and harder than a number of male Marines, and that's the truth.

I knew a farm girl from WV who I served with in one of my units, we were taking down a OE comm antenna and the hard element roughly 5lbs came down on her face and broke her nose. She got back up and we went about our business of taking down comm equipment. At a later time I asked her why she didn't stop right then and seek treatment? She told me that "she has been kicked harder in face by a cow than what happened to her". She wasn't some ugly girl either, but a pretty farm girl. I also served and hung out with a guy whose wife was on the Marine Corps boxing team and flat out beat his ### all the time and later got divorced. 

 

I do agree that we can adapt over time but not just right away with a stroke of a pen. I think that us trying to satisfy a group of people that make up less than 1% of the American people is just stupid in my book. But it should be dealt with in the future, but I do not think that this is time for it. 

Edited July 14, 2017 by cyberfx1024

[bcking 3,157]

1 minute ago, cyberfx1024 said:

All of this is noted and acted on in the schooling. There are skill tests in every schooling, if you can't pass those tests then you can't move forward in school and get sent to a earlier class. If you still can't pass the tests then you are reclassed in to the dreaded "open contract" basically admin or cook. The military today won't just stick a peewee 90 pound guy to load a 80lb artillery shell, but everybody is forced to hike in the infantry a standard amount of equipment totaling over 80-100lbs. But like I said the "vast majority" of women can not do a fair number of stuff that men can do. But I have seen some Women Marines who are stronger and harder than a number of male Marines, and that's the truth.

I knew a farm girl from WV who I served with in one of my units, we were taking down a OE comm antenna and the hard element roughly 5lbs came down on her face and broke her nose. She got back up and we went about our business of taking down comm equipment. At a later time I asked her why she didn't stop right then and seek treatment? She told me that "she has been kicked harder in face by a cow than what happened to her". She wasn't some ugly girl either, but a pretty farm girl. I also served and hung out with a guy whose wife was on the Marine Corps boxing team and flat out beat his ### all the time and later got divorced. 

 

I do agree that we can adapt over time but not just right away with a stroke of a pen. I think that us trying to satisfy a group of people that make up less than 1% of the American people is just stupid in my book. 

I appreciate your point of view.

 

Just like the example you give, I'm sure there are transgender women who are just as strong, if not stronger, than the average men. Are they all like that? Of course not. Maybe those are the minority but I know I would always prefer to be judged based on my skills and abilities and not based on assumptions because of who I am. I'm sure you are the same way. I believe they deserve the same.

 

Yes i agree it isn't going to change quickly, especially in the military where tradition is important. I will respectfully disagree that it is "stupid" though. I don't see it about "satisfying" a group of people. I just see it as treating everyone like humans and as they deserve to be treated. Male, female, born female but male, born male but female. Let them prove what they can do, and if they can keep up with the rest of the group then why not?

[Cyberfx1024 7,980]

Just now, bcking said:

I appreciate your point of view.

 

Just like the example you give, I'm sure there are transgender women who are just as strong, if not stronger, than the average men. Are they all like that? Of course not. Maybe those are the minority but I know I would always prefer to be judged based on my skills and abilities and not based on assumptions because of who I am. I'm sure you are the same way. I believe they deserve the same.

 

Yes i agree it isn't going to change quickly, especially in the military where tradition is important. I will respectfully disagree that it is "stupid" though. I don't see it about "satisfying" a group of people. I just see it as treating everyone like humans and as they deserve to be treated. Male, female, born female but male, born male but female. Let them prove what they can do, and if they can keep up with the rest of the group then why not?

I couldn't agree more with either of these points. 

 

The vast majority of Marines outside of the ground side think like this as well. I have worked with some AWESOME Female Marines but I have worked with some db's as well, and I gauge how they are off of merit alone. The problem with the last 8 years was that the military was forced to accept people to do specific jobs not on merit or skill but by gender. They were then forced to at times lower standard to allow those people to pass no matter what. The only people that did not do this is the Marine Corps Infantry OCS program. 

 

It will change but I think it won't fully change for another 10-15 years honestly in regards to allowing transgender in the military. I may be wrong but I do think it will take that long. 

[TBoneTX 47,511]

A lot of probably avoidable challenges seem to arise when Commanders-in-Chief treat the military like a social experiment.