The Outgoing Tide

[MichelleandCraig 1]

Good to hear from you, Andy! I/We certainly have discovered the same, yes. I fully understand why you aren't around as much...I'm sure you find yourself *plenty* busy and most will move on from here after a time anyway...some stay longer than others, but eventually I imagine we'll all find other things keep us occupied more and more. (Except those lucky enough to be able to browse at work of course!) I'm not sure I agree that the inner workings of the USCIS aren't helpful anymore, though...well, don't know how much "help" it is to know, but it sure is interesting! I know when we were going through our process, we wanted to find out anythinggg we could! I'm one of those that just *has* to know how things tick though. I've gone back to school and am almost done now, but I am constantly saying to my instructors...."ok, but WHY?" Bet it drives 'em nuts sometimes....heh!!

This process sure does change quickly, too. I know we just went through it in 2004, finishing up in Jan. 2005 (the first part of the process that is...we have removal of conditions coming up this October...) and some of the things we had to do are different already (the medical isn't the same day anymore, etc. etc. ). It makes me doubt myself when answering someone, so half the time I just don't offer a reply...I really should reeducate myself so I can be more helpful...there are those here that went through the initial process about the same time we did who are *very* knowledgable, and the "newbies" are very lucky to have them...much like the people I relied on for help. When I do post in the K1, etc forums nowdays, I usually just go the reassuring (try to be calm, it's ok...no, that's not important, don't worry about which paper clip to use...etc type of posts... those are pretty easy, and they do help a *tiny* bit by setting tightly-wound minds at ease a bit...) heheheeh oh boy, I remember those days!

Anyway, no problem. It sure was a sincere remark...you have always had well thought out, insightful posts....and there are those now that do the same....but you can never really have enough of posters like that on a message board like this! Glad to hear all is well! M.

[Andy 2]

Ah, sadly it's perhaps not so much that explanations of the inner workings of the immigration system aren't useful as it is that fewer and fewer people are prepared to listen when greater and greater emphasis is on 'getting the case sorted' and less and less on understanding how to use the system to best effect. Understandable of course. And there are those who have gone through the procedures more recently than I and who are thus better placed to give the technical details of form filling and submission, so my contributions would not be all that helpful.

I was reminded how much the site has changed from the early days when I was useful to the present day by your OT thread of last year that was resurrected yesterday. A perfectly understandable and (I wish I'd told you at the time) very common set of circumstances and problems which at the time garnered supportive, thoughtful and positive responses from the community, but which yesterday was met with anything but. There is still a great community here to be sure, but where it was originally a community of people all traveling the same road and keen to support and help each other through the process, it's grown and matured into a community of individuals with somewhat different expectations and needs. Nothing at all wrong with that, and quite inevitable really, not least because it is no longer being driven by a victim of the immigration system who understood the precise needs other victims had. In the history of immigration support resources, Steve was the first (and I think only) instance of a person who was not only enmeshed in a case and therefore highly invested in finding a way through it, but who also had the technical skills, opportunity and will to create a comprehensive support resource. Once his control and influence was gone, change was inevitable - and not in itself a bad thing as the focus changed and broadened.

It's good to know things for you and Craig are good and that you're almost up to lifting conditions. There are many twists and turns in an immigration case, and as you know yourself, not all of them are about forms and procedures - much are human nature and circumstance that can throw out problems when couple's least expect. In the 10 years I've now been doing casework, I think it would be true to say that these sort of problems are the hardest to resolve, and that by comparison, paperwork and procedure are easy. I'm happy you survived, though sometimes we all need a reminder that we shouldn't take things so readily for granted!

For Craig, see if you can find a copy of a BBC series called 'Coast'. There have been two so far and for Brits overseas the programmes are wonderful reminders of 'home' that are presented wonderfully well and are deeply engaging. One of my daughters sent me a copy of the second series on DVD, which took a bit to get it to play because of the region coding, but it was well worth the effort. At some point I'd really hope the BBC make it available here.

By the way, I love the pic of Old Trafford! I used to pass there every day on the way to and from work, always grateful I didn't have to do that on a day United were playing at home!

Best wishes to you both.

Andy

Edited March 8, 2007 by Andy

[Fandango 1,439]

Back to the OP... It might not be a bad idea to have a forum for people moving from the US to other countries. It certainly does happen and if there is enough interest I might create a forum. Any idea on how much interest there is?

But what info does VJ have to offer? And what countries are going to be included?

[Andy 2]

But what info does VJ have to offer? And what countries are going to be included?

There's no reason VJ has to have information to offer in order to have a place to discuss issues arising from the choice some couples make to relocate outside the US in similar situations to the one described by the OP. VJ doesn't have to be a provider of information, just act as a facilitator by perhaps opening a sub-topic for those who have information or experiences a venue to share such with others who may be asking questions of have an interest in it. When VJ started it didn't have any information at all to give to those who became it's members - it just offered a place for people to come and ask questions in the hope that others had answers. It wasn't until later that the various guides were created and the K-visa FAQ was incorporated as information sources.

Nor would I see it as in any way important for VJ to determine which countries would be included - at the outset at least. Those who participate would determine the answer, and if it proves a useful and even lively area, it then may be advisable and would subsequently be possible to sub-divide it to help streamline discussions.

[Fandango 1,439]

But what info does VJ have to offer? And what countries are going to be included?

There's no reason VJ has to have information to offer in order to have a place to discuss issues arising from the choice some couples make to relocate outside the US in similar situations to the one described by the OP. VJ doesn't have to be a provider of information, just act as a facilitator by perhaps opening a sub-topic for those who have information or experiences a venue to share such with others who may be asking questions of have an interest in it. When VJ started it didn't have any information at all to give to those who became it's members - it just offered a place for people to come and ask questions in the hope that others had answers. It wasn't until later that the various guides were created and the K-visa FAQ was incorporated as information sources.

Nor would I see it as in any way important for VJ to determine which countries would be included - at the outset at least. Those who participate would determine the answer, and if it proves a useful and even lively area, it then may be advisable and would subsequently be possible to sub-divide it to help streamline discussions.

There are denials all the time of 'can we have this/that/the other section?' and I think this should be denied for the same reasons. I'm sure there's plenty of sites out there for emigration out of the US and they could provide not only a wealth of information, but a substantial support base as opposed to the occassional straggler which may find his/her way here.

For instance, there have been many requests for a 'baby' subforum here. Now it's quite true that int'l marriages with the blending of cultures in raising one child is quite relevant to this site, yet it was denied. I'd much rather see another forum on this site as being more useful to the majority of the members (for instance the baby one) than one which serves a pupose outside the parameters of the goal of this site to accomodate the few.

But eh, that's jmo

[Andy 2]

There are denials all the time of 'can we have this/that/the other section?' and I think this should be denied for the same reasons. I'm sure there's plenty of sites out there for emigration out of the US and they could provide not only a wealth of information, but a substantial support base as opposed to the occassional straggler which may find his/her way here.

For instance, there have been many requests for a 'baby' subforum here. Now it's quite true that int'l marriages with the blending of cultures in raising one child is quite relevant to this site, yet it was denied. I'd much rather see another forum on this site as being more useful to the majority of the members (for instance the baby one) than one which serves a pupose outside the parameters of the goal of this site to accomodate the few.

But eh, that's jmo

I don't have any connection to any decision-making process on such things here, so I can't really comment of what does and doesn't get approved as a feature, but it seems to me that if we can give space to a section on 'polls', for example, much of which I see is barely, or very tangentially, related to immigration issues, the notion of opening up a section specifically for those who find themselves needful of leaving the US in order to maintain their relationships is a perfectly valid proposition, particularly in the context of the mission this site set out to accomplish - which was to provide support to those engaged or married couples pursuing an immigration case. When such cases go wrong, fail or suffer log-jams in this awful system, support doesn't stop, nor does the need for it, even though the questions often change dramatically.

It's true of course that there are plenty of sites on the internet for emigration issues - though the fact there were plenty of places for US immigration issues at the time didn't stop this site from being set up to try and help meet the needs of those concerned. Neither do the needs change of those who, like the OP here, find themselves unable to successfully navigate the immigration system. They still have the same needs in terms of their relationship, desire for reunification and for any shred of available information or support from the community to help them, even if only to give a sense that what seems impossible can still be achieved. It seems unjust to in effect turf them out of here and leave them to find a new community to throw themselves on.

On the other hand, you make valid points which I don't feel should be ignored. I just think we should have some sense of community that extends to what members need of us rather than what we feel readily able to give.

[chri'stina 190]

Miss you around here, Andy. I didn't know you well, but when I first joined I used to see your posts a lot and they were great.

I wanted to say the same, Andy. You helped me out in the past with questions about the process. Thanks! Good to see you around.

[Andy 2]

Miss you around here, Andy. I didn't know you well, but when I first joined I used to see your posts a lot and they were great.

I wanted to say the same, Andy. You helped me out in the past with questions about the process. Thanks! Good to see you around.

Hey, gosh yes, I remember you of course. Always a pleasure to help where I could! I see from your timeline that things have been going well!!

Best wishes!

[Addie_Goodvibes 0]

I'm leaving. I am sick to death of the government of The United States of Mexico Jr.

Now I wish no ill will on the people of the United States. There are none better on the planet. Our government? Not so much. So I'm leaving.

Which brings up the obvious. How do I get settled there, when I'm not going to be here? I have that pretty well covered since I already own a house in China and my visa there is good for an entire year at a time. I'll just need to renew it annually and get a new American Passport every 10 years. Legal Permanent Residence in China is little more than a concept. I mught pursue it as a hobby. Probably not. I'm sure other countries have their own rules for people wanting to come in and stay infdefinitely.

How about a forum sub-section for people like me that will be looking for information on packing their bags and leaving?

Jim

Jim-

The sad thing is USA Govt. would rather cater to Illegal Criminal Aliens than help those who follow the immigration laws and go through the process legally. Our Govt. make sit so damn hard to petition our loved ones yet the look the other way when terrorists and Illegal Federal Criminal Aliens enter our country, traffick drugs, rape, murder and steal form legal residents & Citizens.

So I don't blame you for leaving, however leaving will not change anything, I am happy that you will be with your Family/ Wife after all that is what life is about, being with family standing up for those you care most about.

Good Luck to you and where ever your Journey takes you may you find Happiness & Good Health.

[Jasman0717 8]

You might want to see if there is an expats group in the area you are going to move to. My friend belongs to one where he lives in the Philippines and it can be very useful. Yahoo groups has many expat groups on it so you could start searching there. Good luck

[MichelleandCraig 1]

Will definitely have him check for Coast...I think we watch just as many English programs together as we do US ones! I've really gotten into and LOVED OFAH (ALL of them!), Red Dwarf, Fawlty Towers, Vicar of Dibley, Jonathan Creek (a definite fave, along with the next one....), Cracker (!!!), and so many I KNOW I'm forgetting! (The Office over there was way better than the one here, too, IMO!) Anyway, will have a look for Coast and PM you what we think for when you pop on here another time.

Yes, I like that piccy of Old Trafford too....would love to see it in person one day. Craig is from Kent, so we didn't get all the way up there when I visited before...we do want to go maybe this Fall, but we probably won't get up there then either...someday! I know what you mean about game day traffic! We live 2 hours from Green Bay in WI and you do NOT want to on the highway the day the Packers are playing either!

Oh....I can't believe I almost forgot Dr. Who!!!!! One of THE favorites! (See what I told you about nearly as many English programs? Lol. We like Life On Mars, too. *sheesh...the list seems endless.)

All the very best to you and your wife as well. M&C

[Fandango 1,439]

Will definitely have him check for Coast...I think we watch just as many English programs together as we do US ones! I've really gotten into and LOVED OFAH (ALL of them!), Red Dwarf, Fawlty Towers, Vicar of Dibley, Jonathan Creek (a definite fave, along with the next one....), Cracker (!!!), and so many I KNOW I'm forgetting! (The Office over there was way better than the one here, too, IMO!) Anyway, will have a look for Coast and PM you what we think for when you pop on here another time.

Yes, I like that piccy of Old Trafford too....would love to see it in person one day. Craig is from Kent, so we didn't get all the way up there when I visited before...we do want to go maybe this Fall, but we probably won't get up there then either...someday! I know what you mean about game day traffic! We live 2 hours from Green Bay in WI and you do NOT want to on the highway the day the Packers are playing either!

Oh....I can't believe I almost forgot Dr. Who!!!!! One of THE favorites! (See what I told you about nearly as many English programs? Lol. We like Life On Mars, too. *sheesh...the list seems endless.)

All the very best to you and your wife as well. M&C

Are you in the right thread?

[Cassie 8]

Will definitely have him check for Coast...I think we watch just as many English programs together as we do US ones! I've really gotten into and LOVED OFAH (ALL of them!), Red Dwarf, Fawlty Towers, Vicar of Dibley, Jonathan Creek (a definite fave, along with the next one....), Cracker (!!!), and so many I KNOW I'm forgetting! (The Office over there was way better than the one here, too, IMO!) Anyway, will have a look for Coast and PM you what we think for when you pop on here another time.

Yes, I like that piccy of Old Trafford too....would love to see it in person one day. Craig is from Kent, so we didn't get all the way up there when I visited before...we do want to go maybe this Fall, but we probably won't get up there then either...someday! I know what you mean about game day traffic! We live 2 hours from Green Bay in WI and you do NOT want to on the highway the day the Packers are playing either!

Oh....I can't believe I almost forgot Dr. Who!!!!! One of THE favorites! (See what I told you about nearly as many English programs? Lol. We like Life On Mars, too. *sheesh...the list seems endless.)

All the very best to you and your wife as well. M&C

Are you in the right thread?

considering that she is responding to this:

For Craig, see if you can find a copy of a BBC series called 'Coast'. There have been two so far and for Brits overseas the programmes are wonderful reminders of 'home' that are presented wonderfully well and are deeply engaging. One of my daughters sent me a copy of the second series on DVD, which took a bit to get it to play because of the region coding, but it was well worth the effort. At some point I'd really hope the BBC make it available here.

By the way, I love the pic of Old Trafford! I used to pass there every day on the way to and from work, always grateful I didn't have to do that on a day United were playing at home!

Best wishes to you both.

Andy

the answer to your question would be yes.

[m&n 0]

"The US immigration system is amongst the worst in the world at almost everything. Obstructionism, bureaucracy, opacity, random acts of stupidity, inefficiency, confusions and inaccuracies.... "

I think a lot of us going through this system would agree with that statement. I am sure a lot of us would agree that there needs to be a lot of changes in immigration policy. Unfortunately, during election times the only issues about immigration that seem to spark any interest are those of illegal immigrants. Rarely, do they discuss the inefficiencies of the system. But I wonder, is there something that we can do to make our voices heard and respected....other than writing letters to congressmen....because that doesn't seem to work. Instead of wasting my time getting frustrated with the system, I'd like to try and make a difference so that perhaps others in the future won't suffer.....but what could be done.....especially if you don't have great financial political influence resources.

Jim,

I understand the frustration and anger entirely. I've been involved in the US immigration system for years and years now, first as a victim of it and in the absence (then) of resources like this, having to do all my own research and legwork, and then afterwards, in casework on behalf of others. Nowhere, and I mean nowhere, in the the world has been so consistently problematic to navigate the system than via China. Even those countries where new rules have caused serious delays and processing obstructions due to the perception of terrorist threats have never been so consistently difficult-to-nigh-on-impossible to get a case through than China, so prone to undocumented procedures.

The US immigration system is amongst the worst in the world at almost everything. Obstructionism, bureaucracy, opacity, random acts of stupidity, inefficiency, confusions and inaccuracies.... the list is long and saddening in the extreme, and as a result, history is littered with such people as yourself who find it easier, less stressful and less likely to cause divorce and disaster to join their partners outside the US rather than wait the interminable wait to get their partners here. Even such friendly countries as the UK have thrown up cases like this from time to time, so it's no surprise that China does on a routine basis.

And the saddest thing of all about the system is that once a case goes bad, usually through no fault of the person involved in it, it tends to stay bad. Simple errors of bad advice mistakenly followed get compounded into major obstacles to progress. It's the system. You can fight it, but it's like nailing jelly to a tree and in the end it's no more likely to succeed than trying to convince the IRS not to keep collecting taxes.

Before you do decide to leave however, there are a some things to try. Contact your congressional representatives and speak to their immigration liaison staffers. Some are better than others, but the good ones can get the most difficult case unstuck. Also, consult with a good immigration attorney - not necessarily local, there are some excellent ones of good reputation on the internet such as www.shusterman.com and www.visalaw.com. Lay your case out in writing in the barest facts along a timeline before you do this, since it'll make discussion of the details easier and waste less time. That'll help work out what the best course of action is in terms of realistic possibilities for getting the case moving again, or refilling, and help you discover the probabilities of success.

If you then decide to continue the move to China, contact the US embassy there to discuss what issues you'll face, and the Chinese embassy here to get details on the process you'll need to go through.

And good luck!

And to those who say this is an IMMIGRATION site thus not intended to cater for those leaving instead, I'm sorry but you miss the point. This site was, ALWAYS, intended to be family and community first. We have in the course of the years this forum has existed (and it has had several names) always been a community of sufferers first, more concerned about navigating the process, surviving separation, finding ways to be together than the semantics of a name or the simplicity of viewing the problem from one angle rather than another. To be sure, we can't offer reliable help and support on navigating emigration to a foreign country because we don't have the background of knowledge for that, but we all surely have the background of knowledge of what it's like to be separated, and the tough choices that have to be made in the always slow, often painful, business of getting together and consequently offer support and kind words.

Andy.

[Fandango 1,439]

Will definitely have him check for Coast...I think we watch just as many English programs together as we do US ones! I've really gotten into and LOVED OFAH (ALL of them!), Red Dwarf, Fawlty Towers, Vicar of Dibley, Jonathan Creek (a definite fave, along with the next one....), Cracker (!!!), and so many I KNOW I'm forgetting! (The Office over there was way better than the one here, too, IMO!) Anyway, will have a look for Coast and PM you what we think for when you pop on here another time.

Yes, I like that piccy of Old Trafford too....would love to see it in person one day. Craig is from Kent, so we didn't get all the way up there when I visited before...we do want to go maybe this Fall, but we probably won't get up there then either...someday! I know what you mean about game day traffic! We live 2 hours from Green Bay in WI and you do NOT want to on the highway the day the Packers are playing either!

Oh....I can't believe I almost forgot Dr. Who!!!!! One of THE favorites! (See what I told you about nearly as many English programs? Lol. We like Life On Mars, too. *sheesh...the list seems endless.)

All the very best to you and your wife as well. M&C

Are you in the right thread?

considering that she is responding to this:

For Craig, see if you can find a copy of a BBC series called 'Coast'. There have been two so far and for Brits overseas the programmes are wonderful reminders of 'home' that are presented wonderfully well and are deeply engaging. One of my daughters sent me a copy of the second series on DVD, which took a bit to get it to play because of the region coding, but it was well worth the effort. At some point I'd really hope the BBC make it available here.

By the way, I love the pic of Old Trafford! I used to pass there every day on the way to and from work, always grateful I didn't have to do that on a day United were playing at home!

Best wishes to you both.

Andy

the answer to your question would be yes.

Lolz, I missed that quote of Andy's so it made no sense to me. I thought she musta had many browsers open at one and then just posted in the wrong one.