Islamist gun men attack Dallas art event

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

what's confusing? sounds like same ol same ol to me..

If I didn't know better, I'd say the Patriot Act is set to expire unless it is re-authorized. "Threat levels" tend to go up whenever that happens.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Mr. Big Dog

[decocker 7,198]

If I didn't know better, I'd say the Patriot Act is set to expire unless it is re-authorized. "Threat levels" tend to go up whenever that happens.

that's the only thing that's crystal clear to me..

[B_J 2,752]

They tried to commit murder. That makes them killers, not Muslims.

You make this argument a lot and I'd like you to explain something to me.

As you know, a person's "Christianityness" is not based on their actions, it's based on faith. Just because a person is Christian does not mean they are perfect. Christians are not, in any way, better people than non-Christians. A Christian should try to live a sin free life, but it will never happen. Our salvation is not based on what we do but entirely upon what we believe. That's why I refuse to look at a person's actions and say, "because they did X, they are not a Christian". That judgement is not mine to make.

But you make the statement that because a person does a particular action they can not be a Muslim. I don't know much about Islam, so is a person's "Muslimness" conditional upon their behavior? Are their sins that kick them out and make them no longer Muslims? What sins allow a person to remain a Muslim and which one's are forbidden?

I'm honestly curious because I really don't know anything about the religion.

[decocker 7,198]

You make this argument a lot and I'd like you to explain something to me.

As you know, a person's "Christianityness" is not based on their actions, it's based on faith. Just because a person is Christian does not mean they are perfect. Christians are not, in any way, better people than non-Christians. A Christian should try to live a sin free life, but it will never happen. Our salvation is not based on what we do but entirely upon what we believe. That's why I refuse to look at a person's actions and say, "because they did X, they are not a Christian". That judgement is not mine to make.

But you make the statement that because a person does a particular action they can not be a Muslim. I don't know much about Islam, so is a person's "Muslimness" conditional upon their behavior? Are their sins that kick them out and make them no longer Muslims? What sins allow a person to remain a Muslim and which one's are forbidden?

I'm honestly curious because I really don't know anything about the religion.

when christian mothers drown their babies in the tub, or something similarly atrocious, and say things like "god told me to" - don't you have a "oh she's crazy, god didn't tell her to do that" voice go off in your head? i think that's all marvin is saying. people that kill in the name of a religion, are using that religion as a scape goat to do whatever the hell they want. and some have a little bit of crazy mixed in there too.

[lostinblue 1,989]

[decocker 7,198]

interesting choice, lib.

[lostinblue 1,989]

The thing is that now we are told they were not even Muslims, so it is getting very confusing.

Why did they care about the Cartoons?

They are not Muslims because Marvin said so . .. Tens of millions of other Muslims think otherwise .. Of course Marvin did not even know Islam was responsible for all the slave trade for 1400 years in the middle east .. The same trade that is going on today ...

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

What point? Where did I ever even remotely to link the gunman to any group whatsoever? You read what I wrote and inserted your own bias and made a point against something you imagined.. Please go back an reread and show me where I said or implied anything of the sort.

Again:

Group one had every right to do what they were doing

Group two had no right to shoot them for it - be they nazis, goldfish, jews, muslims, or the followers of the comet Hail-Bop.

People implying that Group one has any culpability because what they were doing offended somebodies religious beliefs is BS - that was the point of my original post. That is the valid point to argue.

Please.. Show me were I was wrong..

If I read your comment wrong, my mistake.

You make this argument a lot and I'd like you to explain something to me.

As you know, a person's "Christianityness" is not based on their actions, it's based on faith. Just because a person is Christian does not mean they are perfect. Christians are not, in any way, better people than non-Christians. A Christian should try to live a sin free life, but it will never happen. Our salvation is not based on what we do but entirely upon what we believe. That's why I refuse to look at a person's actions and say, "because they did X, they are not a Christian". That judgement is not mine to make.

But you make the statement that because a person does a particular action they can not be a Muslim. I don't know much about Islam, so is a person's "Muslimness" conditional upon their behavior? Are their sins that kick them out and make them no longer Muslims? What sins allow a person to remain a Muslim and which one's are forbidden?

I'm honestly curious because I really don't know anything about the religion.

Val explained it pretty much. When a Christian does something horrible, it's they're crazy. When it's a Muslim, it's we need to look at Islam. A mass murderer will never be called a Christian, no matter how many times they went to church. Their acts don't define your religion as a whole. Look at the Catholic Scandal. That was the men, not Catholicism. You can see the difference. In Islam it's the same thing, but people refuse to separate the two.

The rules are pretty much the same. The Quran forbids murder like the bible does. The more extreme passages are like the Old Testament, you know how to use them in context. Most do, few don't.

They are not Muslims because Marvin said so . .. Tens of millions of other Muslims think otherwise .. Of course Marvin did not even know Islam was responsible for all the slave trade for 1400 years in the middle east .. The same trade that is going on today ...

Is that trade going on in the US right now? Or are we still looking other places outside of the US to validate your bigotry...

[B_J 2,752]

Val explained it pretty much. When a Christian does something horrible, it's they're crazy. When it's a Muslim, it's we need to look at Islam. A mass murderer will never be called a Christian, no matter how many times they went to church. Their acts don't define your religion as a whole. Look at the Catholic Scandal. That was the men, not Catholicism. You can see the difference. In Islam it's the same thing, but people refuse to separate the two.

The rules are pretty much the same. The Quran forbids murder like the bible does. The more extreme passages are like the Old Testament, you know how to use them in context. Most do, few don't.

I'm not asking about public perception; I'm asking for real information about the religion.

I really want to know, does committing certain sins get you kicked out of the religion? That is definitely not a trait of Christianity but I don't know about Islam.

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

Why does no one care about motive? Motive is everything.

When a crazy person goes on a shooting spree, do we ask why they're crazy? What's the motive?

Wait, its, they should have known better than to do something like this. But if they knew better, they're bigots.

There's no if in this scenario. They were bigots. Plain and simple. That's why they did this.

This wasn't a free speech event, it was a bunch of people that got together to bad mouth Islam. You have people there talking about the President is a Muslim. Many members said flat out they want Muslims out of this country. It was a hate rally.

[GandD 5,966]

This wasn't a free speech event, it was a bunch of people that got together to bad mouth Islam. You have people there talking about the President is a Muslim. Many members said flat out they want Muslims out of this country. It was a hate rally.

In this country, they have a right to do this.

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

I'm not asking about public perception; I'm asking for real information about the religion.

I really want to know, does committing certain sins get you kicked out of the religion? That is definitely not a trait of Christianity but I don't know about Islam.

You can't get kicked out in the sense you're thinking. It would depend on the region you're in. Here at least from what I've seen, it's more based on personal faith. You do what's right by God. Nothing complicated.

It's not about being kicked out. It's how you would define them. You can't claim to be a Christian if you commit a mass murder anymore than you can claim to be a Muslim and do the same thing...

[B_J 2,752]

You can't get kicked out in the sense you're thinking. It would depend on the region you're in. Here at least from what I've seen, it's more based on personal faith. You do what's right by God. Nothing complicated.

It's not about being kicked out. It's how you would define them. You can't claim to be a Christian if you commit a mass murder anymore than you can claim to be a Muslim and do the same thing...

Okay, I understand what you're saying now. A person who truly was a believer in the religion would not have done something like. That act didn't get him removed; it's just an indicator that he never truly believed.

I'm never comfortable making that judgment myself when it comes to Christianity. It's too close to making a claim that certain sins are not forgivable.

[GandD 5,966]

Marvin, why don't you just say you think there should be a law against this type of "free speech"?

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

In this country, they have a right to do this.

Never said they didn't. What's worse is, Muslims at a whole stand by them to do this, but you won't see anyone acknowledging it here, so I'll do it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/04/muslims-react-garland-shooting_n_7204816.html

"We condemn yesterday's attack on an anti-Islam event in Garland, Texas, without reservation," the organization declared in a statement. "We also reiterate our view that violence in response to anti-Islam programs like the one in Garland is more insulting to our faith than any cartoon, however defamatory. Bigoted speech can never be an excuse for violence."

"We should have free speech, and nobody’s stopping her from doing this, go ahead, maybe there’ll be some Muslims entering this, who knows," Salem told CBS.

Yes, we can stand up for justice, simultaneously condemning the violence of the shooters (whatever their background) and condemning the hatred of xenophobic groups who mock marginalized communities," Safi wrote on Facebook. "Let us seek a peace rooted in justice for all."

During the days leading up to the attack, the online magazine MuslimGirl.netresponded to the contest by inviting people to draw a friend named Muhammad, which happens to be a popular name for boys. Amani Al-Khatahtbeh, the site’s founding editor-in-chief, said she wanted to remind the public of the thousands of Muslims who responded to Geller’s hatred by “turning the other cheek.”

“Last night's shooting is inexcusable,” Al-Khatahtbeh told HuffPost in an email. “It serves as a reminder that hate incites hate and creates a vicious cycle. Our mission statement is even more amplified by this horrific reality -- that we must fight back against hate with love.